Ranger Discussion

[Aesop]

Capstone: Stalker's Quarry
Passive:+4 Bonus to Favored Enemy bonuses
Active: Mark: for the next thirty seconds the target creature becomes a Favored Enemy granting all bonuses of a normal Favored Enemy. This has a 3 minute Cool Down.


Tempest 3: +5% Double Strike Chance, +4 Shield Bonus to AC, to hit penalties are reduced by 1 and Off Hand weapon damage uses Full Strength Bonus.


Deepwoods Sniper 1: +15' to PBS Range, +4 Seeker, +2 Spot, Hide and Move Silently
Sniper Shot: Active: +1 Base Weapon Damage Die (1d8 become 2d8), +1 Critical Multiplier, +4 to hit. Cool Down 15sec

DwS 2: +30' to PBS Range, +1 Critical Multiplier, +4 Spot, Hide and Move Silently

Sniper Shot 2: Active: +2 Base Weapon Damage Dice (1d8 become 3d8), +1 Critical Range, +1 Critical Multiplier, +8 to Hit, cool down 15 sec

Deadly Accuracy: Active: Duration 15 sec, +2 Base Weapon Damage Dice (1d8 becomes 3d8), +2 Critical Range, cool down 2 min

DwS 3: +45' PBS Range, +1 Critical Range, Death Attack, +6 Spot, Hide and Move Silently

Sniper Shot 3: +3 Base Weapon Damage Dice (1d8 becomes 4d8), +1 Critical Range, +2 Critical Multiplier, 12 to Hit. Cool Down 15 Sec

Death Attack: Vorpal for Ranged and Thrown Attacks

Arcane Archer 3:
Summon +3 Arrows: ummm yeah that
Hail of Arrows: Fire 3 Arrows at the same time (similar to current Many Shot)* (see General Ranged change below)




Spells:

Arrow Mind: Rng 1: remove AC penalties while fighting in close combat

Exacting Shot: Rng 1: Auto Confirm Critical Hits

Sniper Shot: Rng 1: Sneak attack Range unlimited (PBS as well) Short Duration

Blade Storm: Rng 3: Increase Double Strike Chance by half CL%

Arrow Storm: Rng 3: Arrows are fired in a Cone a different AoE for Archers

Foe Bane: +2d6 Damage vs Favored Enemies




General Ranged Changes

Many Shot
Stance: At BAB 6 improve Base Weapon Damage Dice by 1 (1d8 becomes 2d8)
At BAB 11 improve Base Weapon Damage Dice by 2 (1d8 becomes 3d8)
At BAB 16 improve Base Weapon Damage Dice by 3 (1d8 becomes 4d8)


This is a whole lot lower damage than current many shot but much easier to balance, additionally the Burst Damage ability that many people enjoy in ranged Combat would become a function of Prestige Enhancements.


Aesop

[DarkAlchemist]

Just a point to bring up but there were two threads I recently viewed from 2008 and 2010 that showed the numbers that Alacrity for ranged is actually half of what Turbine says. Even the special items from the raids (like ToD I believe it was) say 15% but are actually 7.5% and the capstone is really 12.5%

So, my point is that if we are hit with those fallacies I hold out zero hope we will ever be treated right. I still love my two AA rangers but no way do I believe will I ever be what a ranger with a bow should be when those alacrity numbers aren't even as published.

[Brennie]

An 18/1/1 Exploiter is a true Ranger! So is a 12/7/1 build, so is a 15/4/1 build, so is a 14/6 build. What thar said. It's not just pure20 Rangers who need a little oomph. It's the PrE splits at 6/12/18.

The problem is that Melee rangers are almost ALL multiclass. Melee Rangers have very, very little incentive to be pureclass, or to take more than 12 levels for taht matter. Theres nothign wrong with multiclassing, but it would be awesome if Rangers were balanced in such a way that going pure was as viable as multiclassing.

@OP - I created A VERY SIMILAR THREAD a earlier this year, attempting to address some of the weak and forgotten aspects of the Ranger class. You have some interesting suggestions, and i love the Effort you put into it, but I feel like your suggestions are much more about giving Rangers more flavor than actually addressing some of their balancing issues.

I feel like the most immediate concerns for Rangers are Ranged combat as a whole, Lack of Melee capstone (Or generic capstone that is applicable to melee as well, such as something related to favored enemies), Lack of benefit from Tempest III, Narrow spell selection, And the complete and total imbalance of Favored Enemies.

The Favored Enemy imbalance is something I went into great detail in the thread i mentioned. I'll do a little copy-pasta to show you why i feel its broken, and my suggestion to help rebalance it:

It seems to me that there are several factors that make a good Favored Enemy: Rarity, Level Spread, Difficulty, and the Inclusion of weak enemies (fodder), tough enemies, and bosses. Undead is a perfect example that scores high on all of these marks. Undead are very common, with many quests dedicated solely to them. Undead are found throughout all levels of gameplay (Slightly sparse in the way late game, past Necro4), Undead are tough enough, with their various immunities and special powers, to warrant needing to kill them quickly, and undead include complete fodder, some tougher middlemen, and bosses ranging from easy bosses to raid bosses. My example proposal for new Favored Enemy classifications will attempt to fulfill all these criteria and make some new contenders for top Favored Enemy picks.

Abberation - As is, plus Ooze and Plant. Ooze and Plant help fill out the fodder role, as well as extending the level spread and increased rarity of Abberation.
Beast - Include Animals, Magical Beasts, and Vermin. Extremely common enemies found at all levels, but lacking many notable bosses or difficulty factor. This category still needs work to be a useful contender.
Construct - As is, constructs are not quite as common as other groups, but the extra toughness factor helps them stand out as a top pick.
Elemental - As is, plus Mephits. Found at all levels, Common and Tough, but lacking notable bosses (plenty of easy bosses). Also lacking fodder, which the addition of Mephits should help with.
Giant - As is, Giants fulfill all criteria nicely, and are already a top pick.
Humanoid - Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes. Very common enemies found at all levels, but not very tough, and very few notable bosses. Still a bit underbalanced, but inclusion of Drow and Duergar should help.
Humanoid, Monsterous - As is, but include Orcs, Goblinoids, and Gnolls. Mostly fodder, with a few tough enemies. Found at all levels, though it thins higher up. A few notable bosses (medusa, mostly) but light in that area.
Outsider, Evil - As is, plus Tieflings. Tieflings help round out it's low level content, making this group uncommon at low levels, very common at high levels, tough, and having a multitude of bosses and raid bosses.
Outsider, Other - Tieflings, Mephits, Djinni, Tharaak Hounds, Eladrin, anything and everything not covered by either the original elemental or evil outsider. Good level spread, very common, but lacking in tougher enemies and bosses. Also, terrible name (Could be "Extraplanars" or something instead)
Reptilian - Kobolds, Trogs, Medusa and Dragons. Covers low and high levels, with a bit of a gap in the middle. Covers fodder and bosses, with a gap for tough enemies. Not terribly common. This category also needs some help, as it is still not a real contender. This category could possibly be broken up and divided into different groups (Kobold/Trog/Medusa into Monsterous Humanoid, Dragon into Giant or Abberation).
Undead - As is. As stated earlier, this group sets the standard for others.

Note - I have changed this from the original, in order to have a few enemies (Teiflings, Mephits, medusa) be covered in more than one category, much the same way evil/lawful outsiders and evil/chaotic outsiders are. i feel these changes will help give rangers good coverage on many enemies while still keeping more than 50% of the game's enemies off any level 20 Rangers FE list.

I also acknowledge that my FE plan is rough at best, and could use some serious fine tuning to make it balanced.

I do invite the OP and other readers to check out the suggestion thread HERE for more details on what i feel needs to be changed to bring balance back to Rangers (Including Helf Dili, Ranger Past life, and AA ToD ring!)

[OverlordOfRats]

Give us a Toughness enhancement line please.

We wander around woods, slough through swamps, climb high mountains, and trek across deserts. Sounds tough to me

[Drekisen]

I completely disagree when people are saying rangers are underpowered compared to other melee classes.

The most obvious is even an AA/DS has far far far more at their disposal than just ranged combat. A ranger should have decent STR anyways to add to their bow damage and this usually, if you built it right, makes your TWF an acceptable form of melee even for "ranged" rangers.

Rangers get all the TWF feats free and don't need the dex to meet the requirements.

Rangers get BOW Str and Manyshot free and do not need any form of pre-req for them.

Rangers can self heal pretty decently and have very useful buffs, talking about pure comparisons here not MC hybrids, a Barb and FGT can't touch this.

Rangers have probably the best stealth skills in the game, don't blame the class because you don't utilize this.

Rangers get Improved Precise shot for free.

I'm sorry, the people complaining about rangers and comparing them to other classes should just throw away their rangers and play one of those other classes that are "so much better" or actually learn how to play their ranger fully and not just focus on one aspect of it, that kind of playstyle will make any class weak.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Semi disagree.

No you don't. You agree exactly with me. Look what you posted next:

So buffs should concentrate on 12+, especially at Tempest III and Melee capstone.

That's what I said exactly. Buff the PrE at 6/12/18. And, yes, especially at 18 and capstone.

[Soleran]

Would be nice to get a math wiz to figure out what 100% off hand damage would mean for tempest rather then 5% double strike for tempest 3. I like that idea but not sure how well that would balance out.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I haven't run an AA or DS, instead I have 5 tempest toons.
All are strength based (dex started at 17 btw), and hold their own vs. anything in the game.

While running the new content "Blown to Bits" (on hard) there are occasional snipers on top of the crates.
Using bow strength & many shot, it took at most 3 melee rounds to take them out.

The one thing I don't have w/ tempest that would put the build over the top is slayer arrows.
The point is, I have for 4 years now, been relying on using bow strength & Improved precise shot and have never once been disappointed with the damage output.

Rangers along with all other classes got a few tweaks over the last 2 years, but fell short in the ranged dept. The replies in this thread ALL have some good ideas. And Im hoping the devs are reading this.

Until we get the ranged aspect tuned up, and you want to get a decent result from going AA or DWS use what works, build a ranger that has high strength & dex, craft a couple of nice bows, and have at it, you wont be let down.

And as someone else said, we don't have the content to run our AA's or DWS yet. (Some of the older outdoor areas would be perfect to convert for this)

[FengXian]

I recall someone suggesting making manyshot a stance based on BAB that fires 1 arrow with the 1st attack, 2 with the 2nd up to 4 with the 4th, and then starting over from one, as long as you don't move. While running it would still be just 1 arrow per time.
That would be 250% of damage roughly, still scaling with BAB (at BAB 12 you stop at the 3rd attack so just 3 arrows etc)

As I said other times, I like AA damage being burst, it opens up much more room for strategy than constant melee-like damage. Could add that to DS, thus leaving both options viable.

Also, rather than making MS a stance solely based on a bow base damage (which would unbalance things in favor of high base damage bows, imagine Unwavering Ardency shooting for 2d12+2d12+6d12 with PBS and MSx4), they might make it a sort of ranged doublestrike stance...with 25%, 50% and 75% of firing ad additional arrow, scaling with BAB. Altho it is still better as it is now, the new version would fit in with Hail of Arrows, if it's to be ever introduced.

My idea is:

-AA is an effect-based ranged dps, so magic effects have priority over raw damage, manyshot-wise too. I also think AAs need more viable imbues...all elements imbues for dps (more than just a burst effect, something comparable to slayer in certain situations), but also cursespewing, paralizing, destructive, life-stealing (i.e. self-healing) arrows and so on...

-DS is a raw damage based ranged dps, with enhanced crit range/multiplier/to hit/damage and some ranged combat feats.

-Tempest is the king of attack rate, as someone said. On par with monk or at least very close to it...should land many, many attacks.

I also think it's time rangers get a melee capstone that makes them a viable choice over the exploiter 18/1/1 split.

Rogues have 2 capstones, rangers might as well, since they contain 2 completely different playstyles, ranged and melee.

I would also like to see Arti-like pets but I don't see that as a priority

[Captain_Wizbang]

The problem is that Melee rangers are almost ALL multi-class. Melee Rangers have very, very little incentive to be pure class, or to take more than 12 levels for that matter.



I feel like the most immediate concerns for Rangers are Ranged combat as a whole, Lack of Melee capstone (Or generic capstone that is applicable to melee as well, such as something related to favored enemies), Lack of benefit from Tempest III, Narrow spell selection, And the complete and total imbalance of Favored Enemies.

The Favored Enemy imbalance is something I went into great detail in the thread i mentioned. I'll do a little copy-pasta to show you why i feel its broken, and my suggestion to help rebalance it:





I also acknowledge that my FE plan is rough at best, and could use some serious fine tuning to make it balanced.

I do invite the OP and other readers to check out the suggestion thread HERE

I have to disagree with the statement about pure ranger melee builds, I have 4 real good builds with good gear and have more fun with those toons than anything else I have. And they hold their own in any quest.

I read your thread, thanks, I wasnt aware of it till you posted the link. I would have linked it had I known.

We all agree rangers need some help. I guess it's a design consideration for the devs. I'm hoping they can have a few people working on them to help speed things up, but things being the way they are, Im not banking on it. The game needs more help in other areas. (not a flame on the devs, just makin a statement)


My thoughts on whats needed,
1) Capstone for tempest.
2) FE re-worked and enhanced
3) Pets updated
4) AA & DWS pre's re-worked & enhanced

[noinfo]

Semi disagree.
IMO there is a huge difference in Ranger performance in comparison to other classes at level 1-12, and 13+.
Since:

Level 1-12:
- Free feats: 3x2wf, 5xranged, almost as good as fighter and all this with dex 8
- Evasion (!), diehard (not big fish, but here it works)
- Nice spells, Rams might, Resist, Protecion, bark to the max, jump
- Tempest gives +20% offhand
- FE: Undead + Giants

Levels 13+
- Spells: Fom, serious wounds
- Feat: HitPS Whaaat?
- 5% from Temp III
- Capstone?

Comparing 12 1st levels is unfair to only 8, but still... at the begining rangers get something, after 12 gain is very symbolical.

So buffs should concentrate on 12+, especially at Tempest III and Melee capstone.

Few points here.
1. If you take advantage of the Dex 8 you will be of no use with a bow. You will be an inferior fighter even if you can max str as it will still be lower and you will still have far less hp. Worse Evasion will be useless
2. The free feats you get are ballanced by the PRE of tempest feats.
3. If tempest 2 was that good then more people would be taking it. Most melee will splash 12 Fighter for kensai 2. That speaks volumes. Those who take 12 ranger do so because of class features rather than the pre which does help in a small way.
4. Ranger spells are quite nice but then so are pally spells. They get a toughness line and now with DOS a better all round melee pre as well.

Now I agree that rangers 12+ need a boost but don't kid yourself that lower levels are fine as well. Rangers are extremely versatile in terms of being able to use a bow as well for free but while this helps it really does not cut it.

No attack boosts such as haste/damage and now barbs with the new damage boost are even further ahead.
No toughness line so hp are far behind.
PRE Ac bonus from twf typed so behind pre such as DOS and SD

[Captain_Wizbang]

Not finished, but....
By levels;
1 - 6, Wolf, (basic dog attack)
7 - 12, White Frost Tiger, (Basic lge cat attack plus Frost bite & Frost Guard)
12 & up, Xeno-Cat, (Frost & Fire Guard & Bite, Invis, Lge Cat attck + 4)

The Xeno-Cat concept is something Ive been thinking of for a while, and adding invis (like Mabar cloak) to it really gives it an edge.