Lower the fort on non-undead/Construct bosses to 50%

[furbyoats]

Leave it as is and give us more ways to reduce fort, which actually work more often than not.

This.

Some good candidates for fort reducing abilities:
-Eagle claw monk attack, add -10% fort on failed save.
-Assassin's ice chill attack, add -10% fort.
-KOTC censure demons, add -25% fort to demons on failed save.
-Given the way it functions, opportunist should probably be increased to 25% chance to bypass fort
-Power critical feat could grant a 25% chance to bypass fort as well.
-Deepwood sniper shot should bypass fort entirely.

Completely agree. Would make parties plan strategy around tactics more and pure brute force less.

[Kmnh]

I like the new boss fortification. Rogues no longer have an excuse for dumping str. Esos and khopesh are no longer so far ahead to be the only real options.

[Cyr]

Is a Raid Boss really a Raid Boss with out 100% fort?, i mean if a normal joe off stormreach streets has it why shouldn't a general from hell?.. just sayin what if they go farm some taps.. seems easy enough.. or even better jsut send a spy into town too use the auction . problem solved all bad guys have heavy fort..

Simple answer to that one. They used up all their body slots on stacking hp buffs that we could only dream of having.

[Corwinsky]

I like the new boss fortification. Rogues no longer have an excuse for dumping str. Esos and khopesh are no longer so far ahead to be the only real options.

1st life rogues can hit a dex of 40 and with midnight greetings make it the equivalent of a 40 str melee (in to hit and dmg). TRs could go higher. So why couldn't they dump str?

But anyway even a 44+ Str based assassin rogue would have his DPS greatly more reduced than any other class with these changes.
Whether they can still do some damages or not doesn't change the fact that rogues (assassin at least) were the class the most negatively impacted by this change.
Which is unfair considering how much grief they were already given before: lot of raid LFMs had them absent from the list at best after 1 had joined. Imagine how easy it's going to be for them now to join a group...

[fasteddie8989]

I say reduce everyones fort %25 players included. I also agree with fort reducing ablities used by mobs and players. Just have the abilities usable mainly by mobs in hard and above difficulites. With the new bravery bonus it would make it a brave move to select a difficulty that you can be crit hit.

[Cyr]

1st life rogues can hit a dex of 40 and with midnight greetings make it the equivalent of a 40 str melee (in to hit and dmg). TRs could go higher. So why couldn't they dump str?

Because they didn't want to be locked into an inherently low dps specific weapon?

[honkuimushi]

Red and Purple names already have their own set of rules. Why not split fortification for them into crit and Sneak Attack portions. Give Elite purple names 100% crit fortification but leave Sneak Attack at 25% or so. That means that high threat / modifier weapons are not always the best choice(an interesting change), and it reduces the damage they take. But it doesn't invalidate one of the major aspects of the Rogue classas well as something that is a significant part of several bulds(Ninja Spies, halflings, Half-elf Rogue Dillies, Rogue splashes etc.)

[Mercureal]

Like i said, if your depending on sneak attack to contribute dps you've built a rogue that's probably far better than mine will ever be at doing traps, you're now paying the price for it with reduced boss dps.

Me I'll keep doing my damage, use a curse spewer when i need to and an improved sunder and carry on whacking at bosses and doing a decent job of it.

Not to be overly confrontational, but if your idea of good DPS is using high strength to whack a raid boss with a curse-spewing weapon I think a lot of people will disagree with you on what constitutes good damage.

[fasteddie8989]

i have not heard if they incressed the magic resistances. Due to fort only being for physical damge did they add to fire, acid ect crit resist chances as well?

[Stonen]

D&d already has a acf (alternative class feature) that lets rogues do 50% sneak attack on any mob, penetrating strike. This should be implemented in some way into ddo. Fortification is a nightmare for a rogue, but this acf could make it a lot better.

[DrNuegebauer]

A rogue without sneak attack is at best on par with an equally geared battlecleric. How many raids is that rogue going to solo heal?

High strength is required for DPS, but a build with *just* high strength and nothing else is bad DPS. Check it, assuming roughly similar ability score distributions and equipment:

Um?

This is quite false and very misleading.

(1) there is no such thing as a rogue without sneak attacks. They have them - it's a class feature.
(2) we're talking about 75% fort here, so said rogues will still have sneak attack dice.
(3) on top of their sneak attacks, a rogues DPS comes from other areas like: haste boost IV. extra 3% chance to doublestrike. 10% fort bypass.


Assuming a 50% fort mob, a pure 20 str rogue pumps out close to 500 on the dps charts. For comparison, a barb or fighter (working their eSOS) will be pushing the 450 mark.
Have pity on the poor ranger (350)

Sure, against 75% fort, the rogue will be worse off than the barb/fighter --> but they'll still be sitting somewhere around the 350+ mark. Which will still be more than some other classes can contribute.
Add this to their ability to instant kill mobs (even in epic) and we start to see that the problem isn't the boss fortification, it's the build of rogue.
I didn't read the text stating that rogues MUST be the highest dps class no matter what scenario, and so for them to be brought back to the field against bosses seems to make perfect sense to me.

75% boss fortification is not a significant issue for a well built rogue. Sure, it's not ideal, but it's not a dealbreaker.

/notsigned to the thread!

[voodoogroves]

I'd like a way to lower fort ... be nice if mechanic had a direct fort-lowering capability.

I'd like to see it show up on items, actually. Like shatter, or perhaps improve shatter similar to how stunning works (chance to proc stun even w/o stunning blow ... chance to proc sunder even w/o using sunder action)

[pasterqb]

I didn't run ev6 hundreds of times to get a SoS and put it on my 18 kensai just so I can see Critical Resisted the vast majority of the time. I'm starting to wonder if Joe Schome is outdpsing me with an EAG. Good thing the only toon I have with the eMarilth chain is a wf

Also i think that Fighters should get ways to reduce fort since crit are important to them seeing as how crit accuracy and kensai 3 are based solely on crits. so please not just rogues

[SableShadow]

Sure, against 75% fort, the rogue will be worse off than the barb/fighter

Bingo! You just found the point of this thread: less HP + less DPS = ?

Well done.

Have pity on the poor ranger (350)

--> but they'll still be sitting somewhere around the 350+ mark. Which will still be more than some other classes can contribute.

Wait, you found time for pity for the poor ranger, who will have the same DPS (using your numbers) but more HP, and not the rogue?

75% boss fortification is not a significant issue for a well built rogue. Sure, it's not ideal, but it's not a dealbreaker.

Seems like you just outlined it, with your own numbers, as a significant issue, yes?

/notsigned to the thread!

/shrug
It's a free country (if you're able to post here).

Haven't had a chance to run the eRaids yet since the drop (since other people seem to have the opposite of your opinion on the matter ), so I'm reserving some of my own judgement ... just pointing out there's a bit o' contradiction in here.

[Calebro]

Bingo! You just found the point of this thread: less HP + less DPS = ?

Well done.

Exactly

[Chai]

Um?

This is quite false and very misleading.

(1) there is no such thing as a rogue without sneak attacks. They have them - it's a class feature.
(2) we're talking about 75% fort here, so said rogues will still have sneak attack dice.
(3) on top of their sneak attacks, a rogues DPS comes from other areas like: haste boost IV. extra 3% chance to doublestrike. 10% fort bypass.


Assuming a 50% fort mob, a pure 20 str rogue pumps out close to 500 on the dps charts. For comparison, a barb or fighter (working their eSOS) will be pushing the 450 mark.
Have pity on the poor ranger (350)

Sure, against 75% fort, the rogue will be worse off than the barb/fighter --> but they'll still be sitting somewhere around the 350+ mark. Which will still be more than some other classes can contribute.
Add this to their ability to instant kill mobs (even in epic) and we start to see that the problem isn't the boss fortification, it's the build of rogue.
I didn't read the text stating that rogues MUST be the highest dps class no matter what scenario, and so for them to be brought back to the field against bosses seems to make perfect sense to me.

75% boss fortification is not a significant issue for a well built rogue. Sure, it's not ideal, but it's not a dealbreaker.

/notsigned to the thread!

Sure, but any case that could have been made for dex builds, which was already severely diminished already, is completely gone now. Where are the options? Go strength or go home isnt it.

A while ago, someone posted the numbers on how a dex mechanic TWFing was still ~92% of the DPS of a str assassin, which was still miles ahead of other melee in the right situation. 75% fort certainly isnt that situation, heh. Being told that "this is the way you have to build to be effective" is ludricrous to the point of going plaid, especially when NOT building that way puts that build so far behind its almost piking.

[DrNuegebauer]

Wait, you found time for pity for the poor ranger, who will have the same DPS (using your numbers) but more HP, and not the rogue?

No.

The poor ranger was 350 against 50% fort - which the rogue will BEAT against 75% fort.

[DrNuegebauer]

B
Seems like you just outlined it, with your own numbers, as a significant issue, yes?

How did I outline it as a significant issue?

If the rogue can get 350+ DPS against 75% fort, compared to a touch under 400 for a topline barb/fighter (wielding eSOS that is) then what's the big deal?

It's a very close result, sure the rogue has a bit less, but who said they had to be top DPS vs everything ALONG WITH the ability to instant kill mobs (even in epic).

I see no problem here. The devs have got this one right. Move it along?

[DrNuegebauer]

Sure, but any case that could have been made for dex builds, which was already severely diminished already, is completely gone now. Where are the options? Go strength or go home isnt it.

A while ago, someone posted the numbers on how a dex mechanic TWFing was still ~92% of the DPS of a str assassin, which was still miles ahead of other melee in the right situation. 75% fort certainly isnt that situation, heh. Being told that "this is the way you have to build to be effective" is ludricrous to the point of going plaid, especially when NOT building that way puts that build so far behind its almost piking.

It DOES seem to be go str or go home. I don't know what to make of that? Finesse might be just another one of those 'bad' feats now? Or perhaps only for certain raid options?

I'd like to see the math on the dex mech being 92% of the str assasin though? It sounds very far from right!

[ahpook]

Red and Purple names already have their own set of rules. Why not split fortification for them into crit and Sneak Attack portions. Give Elite purple names 100% crit fortification but leave Sneak Attack at 25% or so. That means that high threat / modifier weapons are not always the best choice(an interesting change), and it reduces the damage they take. But it doesn't invalidate one of the major aspects of the Rogue classas well as something that is a significant part of several bulds(Ninja Spies, halflings, Half-elf Rogue Dillies, Rogue splashes etc.)

I would take this all the way remove SA protection from fortification across the board. There is already an easy means to nullify sneak DMG by targetting the rogue. If that is insufficient add in a new effect that protects against SA but keep it less effective than fort. Alternatively as others have mentioned is to give rogues enhancements that significantly reduce fort for the purposes of SA (thus resulting in a similar separation of crits and SA).

If that is too much for the devs they should at least make fort nullify caster crits as well and bring them them in line with the melees.