Rogue 14/Arti 6

[NSNeiko]

Was wondering if anyone could give some knowledge on if doing so would be viable with the class. I was originally following this build here http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=735
But I'm wondering if putting in art instead of the last 6 in rogue would be more beneficial?

[karl_k0ch]

In general, not a bad idea. But 14 Rogue/6 Arti offers less than 13 Rogue/7 Arti.

Compared to going pure, you sacrifice 7d6 Sneak Attack damage, but you gain two bonus feats (one as a Artificer bonus feat at Art4, the other indirectly via Rapid Reload at Art1).
The main benefit is that you get stacking +2 hit and damage, +2 seeker, and access to Crossbow damage I and II and Crossbow Hit I. Most important, the Arty PrE allows access to Endless Fusillade which is the ultimate pewpewpew Experience.
The infusions are nice, too, and fit to a crossbow user.
The way you get your damage is changed. You give up a high value of more or less situational damage, but you gain a small amount of non-situational damage, coupled with the option to deal a lot of burst damage 5 times per rest. It's similar to the question if you should splash 6 Ranger on a melee rogue. It's doable, there are benefits, but you also lose something.

It is a slippery slope, of course. You could also go something along the lines of 13Art/7Rog, 17Art/2Rog/1Fgt (or 2Mnk/1 Rog) or even pure Arty, if you are interested in a Crossbow-using Character.

To venture further into the 13Rog/7Art build.

I'd probably go
1 Rogue
2-7 Artificer
8-20 Rogue,
which frontloads the Crossbow abilities. Getting Mechanic I as late as level 11 is not too much of a waste of damage, as you'll have access to insightful damage from level 7 on. Also, in lower levels, the content allows you to solo more easily, which favors plain +to hit and damage over SA bonuses at that time.

Feats.
Rapid Reload is granted for free at level 2.
Toughness is a must.
I consider PBS, PS, and IPS to be ranged essentials.
To increase ranged damage, taking IC: Ranged is somewhat obligatory.

On a non-human, taking PBS as an Artificer bonus feat, this leaves us with 3 feats for customization. Probably, your Str will be rather low, but if you choose to melee on such a build, TWF has incredible synergies with the 13 rogue levels. Ideally, you'd want to take the full TWF line, IC:Pierce and (because being Dex-based) Finesse. But that's 5 feats and only 3 slots. If you have a crafted, or named, weapon with finesse, you could get rid of that feat. With the amount of SA damage you get, dropping IC:Pierce for GTWF seems like the best decision. If you don't have a fitting weapon, it's unclear to me if one would rather go Finesse, TWF, ITWF or Finesse, TWF, IC: Pierce, or even Finesse, IC: Pierce, anything. The latter one would forego the TWF idea and complement a rapier with a runearm.

[Dilbon]

How about Mech 18/Arti 2?

You get:
- Runearm which is an extra item slot basically
- +1 int enhancement
- +1 crossbow damage enhancement
- free Rapid Reload
- +2 UMD to scrolls

You lose:
- capstone with +2 int and +4d6 sneak damage
- 1d6 sneak damage
- rogue feat
- -1 to BAB

Worth it? I don't know.

[Calebro]

But I'm wondering if putting in art instead of the last 6 in rogue would be more beneficial?

Not the last 6. You want Arty early. And 7 instead of 6, because the 14th rogue level is almost useless, whereas the 7th Arty level gets another 3th level infusion.
Doing something like this:
1 rogue
2-3 arty
4 rogue
5-9 arty
10-20 rogue

The arty x-bow enhancements and infusions will make up the difference of waiting to get Mech1, and the puppy will be a lot of help in the lower levels, as will the arty cure bombs. You could actually act as a healer for the first 10 levels or so if needed. But only if you focus on arty first and rogue later.

Adding 7 levels of arty to a Mech build will make them much more versatile and add base damage, while costing a little sneak attack. I think it's a good trade off.

edit:
Now if they'd only decide to implement the original concept of Insightful Damage stacking with Mech's ability to add Int to damage, then 6 or 7 levels of Arty on a Mech build would actually make rolling a Mech worthwhile instead of it being inherently gimped compared to other rogues.
I understand the view from both sides, but Mech really needs the help.

[NSNeiko]

Thanks for all the replies with helpful information. To add, I had a poor choice of words of "add on after" or somewhat. I have a 8 rogue that was following that build closely (not 100%, but close), but when I saw arti gets bonuses with crossbows, I was wondering if it would be more beneficial to cross class with the arti.

I have my rogue at level 8 currently, so I wasn't really looking to re-roll it unless I had to. My reasoning for saying 6 on arti was because I knew his prestige was then, but knew nothing else. But now I know 13/7 would be a better choice.

I would clearly have to swap out a feat or two that I'll be gaining from arti that I trained on the rogue. I was just kinda trying to see if anyone has played the arti enough, and a rogue enough to know if they would meld together well when going mechanic rogue. (having the dog would have made low levels so much easier <_<;; )

[Failedlegend]

I'm not sure if assassin abilities function with ranged but if they do a Rogue13/7Arty (or Rogue 13 Arty 6 Monk1) Assassin2/B-Engineer1 could be quite potent.

Edit: Nvm they both require Damage boost so you can't take them together.

[Calebro]

I'm not sure if assassin abilities function with ranged but if they do a Rogue13/7Arty (or Rogue 13 Arty 6 Monk1) Assassin2/B-Engineer1 could be quite potent.

Edit: Nvm they both require Damage boost so you can't take them together.

Correct. No dice on that one. But Acro wouldn't be terrible. Extra movement speed for when you have to kite from pulling aggro. An extra boost to that when you really need to run. And kiting no longer holds any danger when around ice because backing onto it isn't an issue anymore.
The only problem with that one is that you'll have to keep Insightful Damage up all the time because you lose the inherent ability, which means no available 3rd level Infusions unless you go 7 Arty.

[Failedlegend]

Correct. No dice on that one. But Acro wouldn't be terrible. Extra movement speed for when you have to kite from pulling aggro. An extra boost to that when you really need to run. And kiting no longer holds any danger when around ice because backing onto it isn't an issue anymore.
The only problem with that one is that you'll have to keep Insightful Damage up all the time because you lose the inherent ability, which means no available 3rd level Infusions unless you go 7 Arty.

3rd Level Infusions

Shield of Faith, Mass
Stoneskin
Curative Admixture: Cure Serious Wounds
Curative Admixture: Remove Disease
Flame Turret
Insightful Damage
Blast Rod
Adamantine Weapons
Positive Energy Infusion

Honestly out of this list I really only care about Flame Turret, Insightful Damage and Stoneskin..Stoneskin I can Scrollcast & Flame Turret I can live without but if I go 13Rogue/7Arty I'd Take Flame Turret and Insightful Damage but if I could fit it in stat wise I'd go 13Rogue/6Arty/1Monk and aim for a decent AC (my Dex is gonna be wicked high anyways a Starting wis of 12-14 would be sufficient)

Mind you looking at it Acro1 only gets you (as a non-stave user)

- +10% Movement Speed
- +2Balance (jump and tumble pretty much useless)

Acro2

- +20% Movement Speed
- +4 Balance
- Immunity to Knockdown/Slippery Stuff


The movement speed and Immunity to knockdown is nice and probably the superior choice compared to mech since the mech xbow damage still doesn't stack with insightful damage (would be nice if Eladrin got around to confirming whther this is WAI or not) but overall its kind of underwhelming.

An assassin2/b-engineer1 would be so awesome *sigh*

I really wish the Devs would make boosts and other enhancements the same as the skill boosts so they could apply for either class pres...also would be awesome if equivalent racial enhancements would apply ie. Human Versatility

Oh and remove the "When making a Melee Attack" from most abilities or at least give a reasoning for it being kept from ranged.


Example of Rogue13/Arty6/Monk1 its very crude but you get the idea.

True Neutral Halfling

Dex 18
Con 14
Int 16 (Lvl ups here)
Wis 14

Level Order:

Rogue1
Arty 2-7
Monk 8
Rogue 9-20 

Feats

Normal

1 Point Blank Shot
3 Precise Shot
6 Rapid Shot
9 Mental Toughness
12 IC:Slashing
15 Improved Precise Shot
18 Dunno...probably Quickdraw

Arty

5 Augment Summoning or SF:UMD

Monk 

8 Toughness

AC
No idea never build an AC toon before

Skills: Trapskills, UMD, Concentration, w/e

My Attempt at figuring out possible AC

Dex 18 = +6 item, +3Tome, +2Racial, +3 Exc, + 1 Litany+ 3class =36 (+13)
Wis 14 = +6 item, +2Tome, +3 Exc, + 1 Litany = 26 (+8)

10 base
8 wis
13 dex
8 bracers
5 protection
4 insight
4 shield (clickie/wand/scroll)
4 raiments
3 bark
3 chattering
2 recitation
1 haste
1 monk
1 alchemical
1 size
68 AC...I think?!?

[Calebro]

since the mech xbow damage still doesn't stack with insightful damage (would be nice if Eladrin got around to confirming whther this is WAI or not)

He stated that this wasn't his original intention. He also stated that he understood why it was actually coded that way, and that he was going to think about it a bit.
No further comment has been made, so at this point it's still up in the air as to where it will end up on the WAI-or-not question. Basically, he hasn't decided if he wants that to be WAI or not, which is why it hasn't been confirmed either way.