eChrono - overboard?

[WangChi]

Completed a pug eChrono today, my first since Update 11.

All I can say is - everyone bring pots, this includes you barbs/rogues/fighters/etc - if you have any elixirs of mnemonic enhancement, give them to the healers as soon as you walk in, they will need them. This run had 3 VERY competent healers and some very good eSoS swinging dps'ers in red, and all three healers needed to drink about 8-9 pots each.

[Blank_Zero]

Completed a pug eChrono today, my first since Update 11.

All I can say is - everyone bring pots, this includes you barbs/rogues/fighters/etc - if you have any elixirs of mnemonic enhancement, give them to the healers as soon as you walk in, they will need them. This run had 3 VERY competent healers and some very good eSoS swinging dps'ers in red, and all three healers needed to drink about 8-9 pots each.

Good.

Epic raids should be hard.

That's why they are EPIC.

[Jandric]

Good.

Epic raids should be hard.

That's why they are EPIC.

A stitch in time saves 9.

A penny saved is a penny earned.

Buy low, sell high.

I'm not saying that your sentiment is wrong, but either posting that or posting the disclaimer on the epic entry screen seems to be the response du jour to this and doesn't really mean much more than the above pearls of wisdom.

Epic raids should be hard, but making the cleric/FVS chug pots to keep everyone else up kind of sucks for said cleric/FVS. Everyone is trying out the rebalanced raids right now, and we may well come up with different strategies to offset the load on the healers. Some are worried that the new difficulty sets the barrier of entry too high, but only time will tell.

While I agree with the sentiment that Epics should be hard, it is a tad more complicated than just saying- It's Epic!

[WangChi]

A stitch in time saves 9.

A penny saved is a penny earned.

Buy low, sell high.

I'm not saying that your sentiment is wrong, but either posting that or posting the disclaimer on the epic entry screen seems to be the response du jour to this and doesn't really mean much more than the above pearls of wisdom.

Epic raids should be hard, but making the cleric/FVS chug pots to keep everyone else up kind of sucks for said cleric/FVS. Everyone is trying out the rebalanced raids right now, and we may well come up with different strategies to offset the load on the healers. Some are worried that the new difficulty sets the barrier of entry too high, but only time will tell.

While I agree with the sentiment that Epics should be hard, it is a tad more complicated than just saying- It's Epic!

Agreed. A little "chicken before the egg", "cart before the horse" going on. You need the epic gear to beat the epic quest to get the epic gear, seems a little puzzling to me, and I could tell no increase in drop rate for shards/seals/scrolls for added difficulty to the quest.

I really don't mind additional challenge, I think it's great in fact, but all the weight has been placed on the clerics/fvs shoulders with the way the game is currently setup to be played. The DPS's need some inherent way to mitigate damage to themselves (read: AC or DR) that is realistically attainable while still maintaining the DPS needed to complete the quest with the healers help.

[Chai]

Good.

Epic raids should be hard.

That's why they are EPIC.

challenging =/= drink moar mana pots.

Pretty lame that epic clad raiders cant complete epics sans pots. Kinda putting the cart before the horse, isnt it?

[Bodic]

challenging =/= drink moar mana pots.

Pretty lame that epic clad raiders cant complete epics sans pots. Kinda putting the cart before the horse, isnt it?

His toons dont care Heal him.

He has 1 Blue Bar Class a Wiz.

[Maugrim101]

Slightly off topic but not totally unrelated. Did an Elite Shroud earlier to test the water of the new tough bosses.

The group wasn't filled with the most ubarz players on the server, but had players that are at least "Decent" (One exception, but that wouldnt have made any differance).

Parts 1-3 go the same way as any E-Shroud I've been in before, then in part 4 it took either 6 or 7 (Lost count) rounds to take down the new Harry. It's fair to say that we didn't go into any serious planning, but yeah, even groups with ESos swinging melees and a few healers better be prepared to spend some resources.

At the end, same old loot in the chest (Think I got a large shrap).

It's not such a big deal for shroud because you can just do norm and get your mats that way, but for Dragon, Chrono, DQ and the new raids, you can't really avoid the bosses with the inflated hp and the guzzlefest that's kinda inevitable.

Pot buy ins for these higher end runs are likely to be the future. Either that or we'll start to see more "Where are all the healers" threads.

[Rumbaar]

The group wasn't filled with the most ubarz players on the server, but had players that are at least "Decent" (One exception, but that wouldnt have made any differance).

Parts 1-3 go the same way as any E-Shroud I've been in before, then in part 4 it took either 6 or 7 (Lost count) rounds to take down the new Harry. It's fair to say that we didn't go into any serious planning, but yeah, even groups with ESos swinging melees and a few healers better be prepared to spend some resources.

See that's a L18 quest [elite] and eChrono is a L25 quest.

But without an increase in chests or reward drops, there isn't a need to do Elite Shroud. Even Weapon Shipments gets additional chests for additional rewards on higher difficulties now ...

[Samadhi]

challenging =/= drink moar mana pots.

Don't mind extra challenge......mind extra challenge without extra reward though.
.

This and This pretty much sum it up.

I'll fail a raid eight times in a row if the ninth is worth it loot-wise. If the loot::time acquire ratio isn't there, though, then neither am I.

..and as has been said repeatedly, monstrous HP and chugging pots is not challenging or exciting.

[NaturalHazard]

challenging =/= drink moar mana pots.

Pretty lame that epic clad raiders cant complete epics sans pots. Kinda putting the cart before the horse, isnt it?

so making something longer and needing pots makes it more challeging and more fun? Hey im EPIC I can afford pots from the store!! Bask in my uberness.

[stainer]

Good.

Epic raids should be hard.

That's why they are EPIC.

You were doing so well, and then you post this.

[Schmoe]

you Were Doing So Well,

Lies!

[Blank_Zero]

You were doing so well, and then you post this.

Don't hit me.

[Rumbaar]

Good.

Epic raids should be hard.

That's why they are EPIC.

Pity EPIC is the end game content that can only be achieved with the access to end game content you are trying to get.

How many players are going to PuG EPIC now? With the chance of so much resources being used without the end reward being guaranteed.

With the introduction of the HP/SP display and the increase in HP/Fort to end game content ... I would hate to see Turbine push DDO to an elitist game. I'm not sure why they are going down this road, with a F2P marketing model.

I guess the sales of pots is the biggest money maker for them.

[vittordevittor]

Pity EPIC is the end game content that can only be achieved with the access to end game content you are trying to get.

How many players are going to PuG EPIC now? With the chance of so much resources being used without the end reward being guaranteed.

With the introduction of the HP/SP display and the increase in HP/Fort to end game content ... I would hate to see Turbine push DDO to an elitist game. I'm not sure why they are going down this road, with a F2P marketing model.

I guess the sales of pots is the biggest money maker for them.

ya NOT being an elitist game was what made it special.

everyone enjoying beholders together...

[jkm]

Good.

Epic raids should be hard.

That's why they are EPIC.

No, as usual, the only people they made the quests hard for were the kiters and the people healing it. The auto-attackers still just go get coffee and come back and loot.

[SisAmethyst]

Good.

Epic raids should be hard.

That's why they are EPIC.

Arghhh ...

How many Heal scrolls were used raidwide on the last fight?

If your answer is less than 300, and you used mana potions - that's not the encounter's design fault, that's just idiotic divines that have no concept of mana conservation and do not belong in epic raids. Send them back to Normal Shroud to learn to play their class.

...

300 Heal scrolls are a lot of platinum as a burden for the Healer. Sure an epic scroll may be sold for that purpose. Sure the Healer may get rewarded at the end. Except of the 1k p repair bill what does the Fighters bring on the table? Yes your fighter bring the DPS on the table but a dead fighter is 0 DPS so its still the burden of the healer. Just cumulating the pots instead with stacks of scrolls doesn't make it any way better.

If I as a healer get a completion and a token it is nice and with a haggle bard in the back I can buy the scrolls cheaper. But still the may get rewarded is just a maybe, especially in PUGs. For some epics it may be already difficult to get a healer and you expect the chance to get one rise with U11? I doubt it...

Don't get me wrong, EPIC should definitely be hard and challenging, but not and the back of the healer burning through whatever resources he use (pots, scrolls, ...)! A Raid, no matter if normal or epic shouldn't be designed on the base of someone burning through resources to win it.

I ran a PUG eChrono yesterday with my FvS.

We finished it.

I never even used the bank shrine, or the shrine in the Phoenix tavern.

We did have a couple of seriously awesome people in that group, though. That makes a huge difference. We all also agreed that we weren't going to use potions because it was kind of laggy, and we didn't want to waste resources if we weren't sure it could be completed....

I am happy to read that it still possible to do this in a good PUG without dumping resources...

[sirgog]

300 Heal scrolls are a lot of platinum as a burden for the Healer. Sure an epic scroll may be sold for that purpose. Sure the Healer may get rewarded at the end. Except of the 1k p repair bill what does the Fighters bring on the table? Yes your fighter bring the DPS on the table but a dead fighter is 0 DPS so its still the burden of the healer. Just cumulating the pots instead with stacks of scrolls doesn't make it any way better.

If I as a healer get a completion and a token it is nice and with a haggle bard in the back I can buy the scrolls cheaper. But still the may get rewarded is just a maybe, especially in PUGs. For some epics it may be already difficult to get a healer and you expect the chance to get one rise with U11? I doubt it...

300 scrolls raidwide isn't much. 100 each. That's only a little more than the repair bill a melee faces after a disasterous wipe.

Besides, that's an upper limit. My one post-U11 eChrono finished with about 100 scrolls used raidwise and all divines on over 1000 SP.

[Blank_Zero]

Arghhh ...

What? Epic raids should be easy and anyone should be able to run them no matter how horrible a player they are?

I'm not saying double HP, Fort and damage output makes it HARDER, but they have to start somewhere...

[NaturalHazard]

What? Epic raids should be easy and anyone should be able to run them no matter how horrible a player they are?

I'm not saying double HP, Fort and damage output makes it HARDER, but they have to start somewhere...

I dont know, how about having the odd abishai trash spawn with the devils? maybe some casters? might be nice then, and better to have some rogues with assasinate, casters and rangers esp AA,s to deal with the abishai in the party.

That would seem more fun to me rather than. Moar hps, moar fort!! moar melee damage!! so we need moar hp, moar dps besides SA and crit dps, Moar sp and Moar mem pots, and moar time. Yes its loads of fun.