eChrono - overboard?

[Rumbaar]

Scrolls cost plat too, if I'm dropping 300 per raid ... then it's not a happy time to be a healer.

So eSoS is no good for end bosses these days?!

[fyrst.grok]

How many Heal scrolls were used raidwide on the last fight?

If your answer is less than 300, and you used mana potions - that's not the encounter's design fault, that's just idiotic divines that have no concept of mana conservation and do not belong in epic raids. Send them back to Normal Shroud to learn to play their class.

If more than 300, then raidwide DPS may have been lacking. People using inappropriate weapons (like the eSOS, which is awful on high fortification bosses) are likely the issue here. Did people not have humble +3 Holy Greater Evil Outsider Bane weapons, or similar?

Never used more than 25 scrolls in a raid.. Guess i better stock up
Would probably be better yet with holy/disintegration greensteel or something similar? Sigh. back to farming.

EDIT: Nevermind.. Disintegration and holy can't be combined.. Back to the drawingboard..

[vittordevittor]

Pity EPIC is the end game content that can only be achieved with the access to end game content you are trying to get.

How many players are going to PuG EPIC now? With the chance of so much resources being used without the end reward being guaranteed.

With the introduction of the HP/SP display and the increase in HP/Fort to end game content ... I would hate to see Turbine push DDO to an elitist game. I'm not sure why they are going down this road, with a F2P marketing model.

I guess the sales of pots is the biggest money maker for them.

ya NOT being an elitist game was what made it special.

everyone enjoying beholders together...

[Jandric]

Scrolls cost plat too, if I'm dropping 300 per raid ... then it's not a happy time to be a healer.

So eSoS is no good for end bosses these days?!

eSoS- Old and Busted

Cannith Crafted Boss Beater- The new Hotness

If this is the new norm in epics and elite raids, what is the actual point of grinding out eSoS, especially given that it's now more of a pain to do so?

[Anzanel]

If they made Major Mnemonics drop a lot more often, it might not be so bad, but...urgh. I just get over that fine good-enough-for-Epics line, and they make Epics harder. I likely won't bother with eChrono until I stack some past lives, so any comment from me is probably useless.

Now just watch, when I have 80 levels of Wiz, they'll make Epics even harder still, and I'll have to get completionist and then re-stack 3 Wiz lives ;P

How are the other (ie, easier) Epics BTW?

[Garvin]

Scrolls cost plat too, if I'm dropping 300 per raid ... then it's not a happy time to be a healer.

So eSoS is no good for end bosses these days?!

No I tend to agree with numot, healers and I mean those that are designed to heal, should utilise every arsenal they have at hand.

Take a radiant servant healer, besides heal spells and scrolls he/she has the healing aura and healing burst, granted that during raid fights, the aura and burst may not be very ideal if the boss going to give out AOE dmg, however with a healer just relying on heal spells is not ideal seeing as you can basically run the cooldowns between scroll and spell which ultimately saves mana.

Added to this, those mana regen items (if you can get them), bauble, spell storing, twisted taily, vile blas. You can last longer.

I'm not saying, pots shouldn't be used but heck a healer ought to use heal scrolls first, at least perform some sort of mana conservation as the situation demands.

[der_kluge]

I ran a PUG eChrono yesterday with my FvS.

We finished it.

I never even used the bank shrine, or the shrine in the Phoenix tavern.

We did have a couple of seriously awesome people in that group, though. That makes a huge difference. We all also agreed that we weren't going to use potions because it was kind of laggy, and we didn't want to waste resources if we weren't sure it could be completed.

Bloodplate hits pretty hard - at one point, he hit me, leaving me with 1 hit point. I think at the time I had over 300.

The same strategies apply - casters first, then armorers, then bloodplate, then trash. Good CC here is a must.

Final fight is also tough. Pop a DDoor occasionally so casters can reshrine if they have them available. Put a good tank on the boss to distract. Ours had 700 hit points (and was a FvS, if you can believe that).

[SisAmethyst]

Good.

Epic raids should be hard.

That's why they are EPIC.

Arghhh ...

How many Heal scrolls were used raidwide on the last fight?

If your answer is less than 300, and you used mana potions - that's not the encounter's design fault, that's just idiotic divines that have no concept of mana conservation and do not belong in epic raids. Send them back to Normal Shroud to learn to play their class.

...

300 Heal scrolls are a lot of platinum as a burden for the Healer. Sure an epic scroll may be sold for that purpose. Sure the Healer may get rewarded at the end. Except of the 1k p repair bill what does the Fighters bring on the table? Yes your fighter bring the DPS on the table but a dead fighter is 0 DPS so its still the burden of the healer. Just cumulating the pots instead with stacks of scrolls doesn't make it any way better.

If I as a healer get a completion and a token it is nice and with a haggle bard in the back I can buy the scrolls cheaper. But still the may get rewarded is just a maybe, especially in PUGs. For some epics it may be already difficult to get a healer and you expect the chance to get one rise with U11? I doubt it...

Don't get me wrong, EPIC should definitely be hard and challenging, but not and the back of the healer burning through whatever resources he use (pots, scrolls, ...)! A Raid, no matter if normal or epic shouldn't be designed on the base of someone burning through resources to win it.

I ran a PUG eChrono yesterday with my FvS.

We finished it.

I never even used the bank shrine, or the shrine in the Phoenix tavern.

We did have a couple of seriously awesome people in that group, though. That makes a huge difference. We all also agreed that we weren't going to use potions because it was kind of laggy, and we didn't want to waste resources if we weren't sure it could be completed....

I am happy to read that it still possible to do this in a good PUG without dumping resources...

[taurean430]

Ran three dragons last night. The first run completed with no hassle. There was excellent coordination between those of us healing. It only took two of us to get the job done. Melee used more appropriate weapons; greater banes/lit2/bursting weapons.

Second run was rougher. I also healed on this run. Unfortunately we had a combination of melee preferring to use high crit range dps weapons and one cleric with really low heal numbers. We made an adjustment mid fight to get the WF Fvs up front and personal for some aura debuffing to help them out. 5 deaths/12 pots used. We did complete however. Loot was the same as I've seen, which I found disappointing.

Third run I hopped on one of my melee. We started off well enough, but our healing toons just ran out of resources. There were many deaths. I was one of them. We ended up wiping and calling it.

I am still undecided. The bar is in fact much higher now. Yet it is higher in the sense of divine and support classes. I did take notice that high crit range weapons are not ideal in these fights. It is evident in just how slowly equally geared dps move her red bar dependent on choice of weapons. There was much by way of pleasant conversation regarding the added pressure on support classes.

I'd like to say that the days of auto attack and walk away from the keyboard are over. However, in the majority of runs I have joined recently I still see this behavior. This is especially problematic when the weapon they choose to auto attack with has lower overall effectiveness.

It's clear though that higher end raiding guilds are discussing the changes. I'm curious to see what we end up with. I'm expecting different gear expectations coupled with questions regarding healing capacity. One thing is certain for me though, and that is that that raid is a much rougher place to be a divine in. Particularly in a pug...

[Samadhi]

challenging =/= drink moar mana pots.

Don't mind extra challenge......mind extra challenge without extra reward though.
.

This and This pretty much sum it up.

I'll fail a raid eight times in a row if the ninth is worth it loot-wise. If the loot::time acquire ratio isn't there, though, then neither am I.

..and as has been said repeatedly, monstrous HP and chugging pots is not challenging or exciting.

[sirgog]

300 Heal scrolls are a lot of platinum as a burden for the Healer. Sure an epic scroll may be sold for that purpose. Sure the Healer may get rewarded at the end. Except of the 1k p repair bill what does the Fighters bring on the table? Yes your fighter bring the DPS on the table but a dead fighter is 0 DPS so its still the burden of the healer. Just cumulating the pots instead with stacks of scrolls doesn't make it any way better.

If I as a healer get a completion and a token it is nice and with a haggle bard in the back I can buy the scrolls cheaper. But still the may get rewarded is just a maybe, especially in PUGs. For some epics it may be already difficult to get a healer and you expect the chance to get one rise with U11? I doubt it...

300 scrolls raidwide isn't much. 100 each. That's only a little more than the repair bill a melee faces after a disasterous wipe.

Besides, that's an upper limit. My one post-U11 eChrono finished with about 100 scrolls used raidwise and all divines on over 1000 SP.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

We did a half guild half pug run with mostly competent end game people. 3 healers. I healed the main tank. I used 130 scrolls and none of us used any pots. We all used 2 shrines during the end fight (I think one healer ran to the bank for a 3rd ??)

It took 3 times as long and was intense. the tank died and switched multiple times although mostly from not ducking the fire breath in time.

It basically took 12 people concentrating to complete rather than the usual 3-4 people trying and 8 pikers pretending to swing or look useful.

Many deaths - much kiting - regrouping and back into the long slog fest.

It wasn't more enjoyable ... just a lot longer and harder. Standard pug groups will not likely complete this anymore without huge pot chugging (which is probably the turbine plan ... pay to win)

[Kmnh]

There are 2 shrines that you can use during that end fight. let the arcanes and divines take turns resting and you won't take any pots

[sirgog]

We did a half guild half pug run with mostly competent end game people. 3 healers. I healed the main tank. I used 130 scrolls and none of us used any pots. We all used 2 shrines during the end fight (I think one healer ran to the bank for a 3rd ??)

It took 3 times as long and was intense. the tank died and switched multiple times although mostly from not ducking the fire breath in time.

It basically took 12 people concentrating to complete rather than the usual 3-4 people trying and 8 pikers pretending to swing or look useful.

Many deaths - much kiting - regrouping and back into the long slog fest.

It wasn't more enjoyable ... just a lot longer and harder. Standard pug groups will not likely complete this anymore without huge pot chugging (which is probably the turbine plan ... pay to win)

Tanks dying in fire really, really hurts the raid now, whereas before it was a minor irriatation.

[NaturalHazard]

challenging =/= drink moar mana pots.

Pretty lame that epic clad raiders cant complete epics sans pots. Kinda putting the cart before the horse, isnt it?

so making something longer and needing pots makes it more challeging and more fun? Hey im EPIC I can afford pots from the store!! Bask in my uberness.

[NaturalHazard]

Tanks dying in fire really, really hurts the raid now, whereas before it was a minor irriatation.

I dont know, it prob wont hurt the 4-8 hour a day people have every piece of gear under the sun.

But for us more casual players it will be a bit of a put off.

Shade had an Idea about multiple difficulties for epics, and it was a pretty good idea I thought, something for everyone and better drop rates as the difficulty went up.

[Vyrn]

Completed a pug eChrono today, my first since Update 11.

All I can say is - everyone bring pots, this includes you barbs/rogues/fighters/etc - if you have any elixirs of mnemonic enhancement, give them to the healers as soon as you walk in, they will need them. This run had 3 VERY competent healers and some very good eSoS swinging dps'ers in red, and all three healers needed to drink about 8-9 pots each.

Ill admit its hard, yea. But the last run I did was only 4 pots for me, none I think for the other fvs or cleric. Mainly due to the new UI making heal so difficult for no ****ing reason. The DPS wasnt really stellar either, we only had 2-3 non-PuG DPS. So, no offence, but maybe your healers need better.. healing tactics? Could just be due to the trashy UI though. Either way, the raid is *fun* as it stands now. People have to actually pay attention and be very coordinated.

[Terebinthia]

If they made Major Mnemonics drop a lot more often, it might not be so bad, but...urgh. I just get over that fine good-enough-for-Epics line, and they make Epics harder. I likely won't bother with eChrono until I stack some past lives, so any comment from me is probably useless.

Now just watch, when I have 80 levels of Wiz, they'll make Epics even harder still, and I'll have to get completionist and then re-stack 3 Wiz lives ;P

How are the other (ie, easier) Epics BTW?

You don't need past lives for eChrono - I run it on my divines and my melee and only one of them is a TR. They do have a good standard of Toughness and Shroud HP and lit II / epic Hellstroke (paladin) but they are not uber geared - the best geared is probably my cleric but it's all in DCs so it's meaningless in that context anyway.

I will sort of agree with sirgog though and say resource conservation becoming important is a good thing - I've had an instance or two of being told off in Dq2 for being lazy when in fact I'm been spamming cures because radiant burst is in my automatic rotation and I am therefore a lot more efficient than some divine casters. Nothing gets my goat like the tertiary divine caster with healing role in something with basic rez / buffbot duty "helping" because they get bored or have something to prove. There's a reason we are trying to have your mana in reserve, ... person.

[Blank_Zero]

Arghhh ...

What? Epic raids should be easy and anyone should be able to run them no matter how horrible a player they are?

I'm not saying double HP, Fort and damage output makes it HARDER, but they have to start somewhere...

[NaturalHazard]

What? Epic raids should be easy and anyone should be able to run them no matter how horrible a player they are?

I'm not saying double HP, Fort and damage output makes it HARDER, but they have to start somewhere...

I dont know, how about having the odd abishai trash spawn with the devils? maybe some casters? might be nice then, and better to have some rogues with assasinate, casters and rangers esp AA,s to deal with the abishai in the party.

That would seem more fun to me rather than. Moar hps, moar fort!! moar melee damage!! so we need moar hp, moar dps besides SA and crit dps, Moar sp and Moar mem pots, and moar time. Yes its loads of fun.