Artificer trap disabling

[Adrenas]

Okay, I just messed around with an artificer a bit and I like them... but what about traps? Artificers get the skills to disable traps, but they have low hp and no evasion so they can't survive actually getting to many of the control boxes. Someone said that your dog can do the disabling and it has evasion, but they didn't elaborate. Looking at my dogs enhancements I don't know if I can build them to have the saves to evade traps and be tough/able enough to tank/defend me. Then there is also the fact that even with being able to send the dog... there are boxes that you personally can't see or target from the other side of the trap. Example would be the trap in VoN where you have to launch up to disable/drop ladder for the group. I won't be able to even search/see the box for the trap until someone has gone up and dropped the ladder. 1 hit from a trap is going to drop the low health artificer.

I must be missing something here. Can anyone explain to me how artificers are supposed to accomplish disabling traps that they can't get to/see?

[grausherra]

An artificer trapmonkey has a harder time of it than a rogue, to be sure. So far I've prioritized keeping buffs mem'd that can help plow through it (stoneskin, resists, etc) and I've prioritized saves on items. Other than that, I guess a splash for evasion >.<

[Adrenas]

An artificer trapmonkey has a harder time of it than a rogue, to be sure. So far I've prioritized keeping buffs mem'd that can help plow through it (stoneskin, resists, etc) and I've prioritized saves on items. Other than that, I guess a splash for evasion >.<

Argh. That's pretty much how I thought it would be. Sending the dog won't cut it because of how so many of the games traps are set up. I really want that Artificer capstone because it's really awesome, but it looks like to do traps i'll have to splash monk or rogue for evasion.. personally I find this to be a gargantuan design flaw to the point where it was almost silly to even give artificers disable traps, other than viewing artificer as a splash option for another class to get rogue skills rather than the standard rogue splash.

I understand not giving evasion to artificer because of the non-trap related benefits of saving for no damage. But they could have at least made a specific trap evasion feat that only applied to traps. They made so many other new custom things for artificer... that seems like a small effort.

edit note: Using the adjective gargantuan was overstating things, but before posting this thread I did a lot of searching for threads about artificers trap disabling abilities and didn't find any. It wouldn't be a surprise to the lammania users that artificers don't get evasion, but it seemed like a 400 pound elephant in the room that no one was talking about considering it had just gone live that day.

[dkyle]

personally I find this to be a gargantuan design flaw to the point where it was almost silly to even give artificers disable traps, other than viewing artificer as a splash option for another class to get rogue skills rather than the standard rogue splash.

I don't see how making one class less good than another at doing one specific (rather minor) thing is a "gargantuan design flaw".

Rogues are the trap-masters. Artificers can do them too, but with limits.

And Artis as a splash option? I don't see it being a very popular alternative to Rogue.

[Adrenas]

I don't see how making one class less good than another at doing one specific (rather minor) thing is a "gargantuan design flaw".

Rogues are the trap-masters. Artificers can do them too, but with limits.

And Artis as a splash option? I don't see it being a very popular alternative to Rogue.

Well, if you take that logic then nothing could ever be a design flaw. Also, handling traps isn't a minor thing. You've seen epic traps right? If you can't handle the role of dealing with traps then what is the point of having the skill? I see that as a big design flaw. That's my opinion. It apparently isn't yours and that's okay.

I don't see it being a popular alternative to Rogue either, which would reinforce my opinion that it is a design flaw.

Really, i'm just dissapointed because when I heard Artificers had the skills to disable/pick I was really excited to do some non-rogue trap-monkeying and now I see that I can't actually do so without splashing rogue like everyone else that wants to do traps without being a main class rogue. I mean.. if you have to splash rogue anyway..

Oh well. Now I know the deal at least. Thanks for responding!

[dkyle]

Well, if you take that logic then nothing could ever be a design flaw.

I didn't say that one class being better at something can never be a design flaw. Just that making one class better then something than another class is not inherently a design flaw. It could be a design flaw, but you haven't made a good argument for it being one. You basically just say that Artificers should be full standins for Rogues, but I don't see why. Artificers get things Rogues don't, Rogues get things Artificers don't. Trap-disabling is simply a less central ability to them than it is to Rogues (where it's not even that central to begin with).

Also, handling traps isn't a minor thing. You've seen epic traps right? If you can't handle the role of dealing with traps then what is the point of having the skill? I see that as a big design flaw. That's my opinion. It apparently isn't yours and that's okay.

There are lots of traps where an Artificer suffices, even in Epics. And there are rather few traps that matter, anyway. Yeah, you're going to struggle with the eVoN5 traps, but so what? Lots of splashes without Improved Evasion struggle there. And it's not like anyone actually runs that thing anyway...

Really, i'm just dissapointed because when I heard Artificers had the skills to disable/pick I was really excited to do some non-rogue trap-monkeying and now I see that I can't actually do so without splashing rogue like everyone else that wants to do traps without being a main class rogue. I mean.. if you have to splash rogue anyway..

You can do some traps. Just not all of them (at least not easily).


Now, I do think Artificers are rather underpowered. But I don't think their trap-skills are the problem.

[Angelus_dead]

You've seen epic traps right?

Yeah, I've seen epic traps.

You know what happens to an Artificer with Evasion when he stands in an epic trap? The same thing that happens to an Artificer without Evasion.

[Calebro]

Argh. That's pretty much how I thought it would be. Sending the dog won't cut it because of how so many of the games traps are set up. I really want that Artificer capstone because it's really awesome, but it looks like to do traps i'll have to splash monk or rogue for evasion.. personally I find this to be a gargantuan design flaw to the point where it was almost silly to even give artificers disable traps, other than viewing artificer as a splash option for another class to get rogue skills rather than the standard rogue splash.

Again, not a design flaw. A balancing factor.
Sustainable ranged DPS
Great AoE damaging spells
Self healing
A tanky pet that you can also heal
Some of the best individual buffs in the game
Superior UMD skills/abilities
Trapping ability

If you inherently give them evasion, they are just as OP as everyone claims they are.

[Adrenas]

Again, not a design flaw. A balancing factor.
Sustainable ranged DPS
Great AoE damaging spells
Self healing
A tanky pet that you can also heal
Some of the best individual buffs in the game
Superior UMD skills/abilities
Trapping ability

If you inherently give them evasion, they are just as OP as everyone claims they are.

That's why I was suggesting a specific trap-only evasion like ability. To let them fully take on a traps role without giving them the ability to dodge fireballs and the like. I'll still play my arti anyway. My intention for the toon was decent ranged dps, spells/umd for group support, and clearing out traps. I'll just have to scrap that last purpose or splash rogue is all. I really like the class either way.

[grausherra]

Argh. That's pretty much how I thought it would be. Sending the dog won't cut it because of how so many of the games traps are set up. I really want that Artificer capstone because it's really awesome, but it looks like to do traps i'll have to splash monk or rogue for evasion.. personally I find this to be a gargantuan design flaw to the point where it was almost silly to even give artificers disable traps, other than viewing artificer as a splash option for another class to get rogue skills rather than the standard rogue splash.

No, it was a fine design, and fits my needs exactly :P I won't be a high-end trapmonkey, but I never wanted to. I can however clear most of the traps in my way, and get the bonus EXP to boot, which is all I want.

Different classes for different taste :P

[Chai]

Argh. That's pretty much how I thought it would be. Sending the dog won't cut it because of how so many of the games traps are set up. I really want that Artificer capstone because it's really awesome, but it looks like to do traps i'll have to splash monk or rogue for evasion.. personally I find this to be a gargantuan design flaw to the point where it was almost silly to even give artificers disable traps, other than viewing artificer as a splash option for another class to get rogue skills rather than the standard rogue splash.

note: I understand not giving evasion to artificer because of the non-trap related benefits of saving for no damage. But they could have at least made a specific trap evasion feat that only applied to traps. They made so many other new custom things for artificer... that seems like a small effort.

Its a class that understands mechanical things, including traps better than any other class, and uses technology to get around obsticles that other classes can use physical prowess to get around. Makes perfect sense to me that they dont get any kind of evasion.

Im glad too. There are ALOT of threads where someone posts that it makes no sense that 2 rog / 18 something else is as good as a 20 rogue at clearing traps. Here we have another class that can do it, but not as well in some specific cases.

[Thrudh]

Argh. That's pretty much how I thought it would be. Sending the dog won't cut it because of how so many of the games traps are set up. I really want that Artificer capstone because it's really awesome, but it looks like to do traps i'll have to splash monk or rogue for evasion.. personally I find this to be a gargantuan design flaw to the point where it was almost silly to even give artificers disable traps, other than viewing artificer as a splash option for another class to get rogue skills rather than the standard rogue splash.

I think it was excellent design actually.

You can't have everything... Capstone or splash for evasion... you decide.

[Adrenas]

As someone who has played several builds that have trap skills, but don't get evasion until level 19, I assure you that evasion isn't needed except for... um, for... hmmm. I can't think of a trap that "needs" it. I'm sure I'm forgetting one, hopefully someone will remind me.

Is it handy? You betcha. Needed? Not by a long shot.



In that case, you're good to go.

I was actually thinking the trap in the new house cannith quests with the big electrified floor you have to go accross before you can get to the control box. I watched it knockdown a capped rogue and nearly kill them on 1 failed save. You really didn't have trouble w/o evasion until 19? Not with clusters of spinning blade traps or flame traps or anything? I guess i'll see how it pans out trying to do them without evasion before deciding on the splash.

I think it was excellent design actually.

You can't have everything... Capstone or splash for evasion... you decide.

I didn't say it wasn't an excellent design, I said it has a flaw. I never suggested having everything, just full use of what it has already. The way the class was pitched and designed suggests that it would be able to handle the role of a trap monkey. I guess i'll find out exactly how far it can get in that role before deciding on the capstone.

[dkyle]

I didn't say it wasn't an excellent design, I said it has a flaw. I never suggested having everything, just full use of what it has already. The way the class was pitched and designed suggests that it would be able to handle the role of a trap monkey.

personally I find this to be a gargantuan design flaw to the point where it was almost silly to even give artificers disable traps

A "gargantuan design flaw" seems rather contrary to "excellent design".

If you want to say that Evasion is a serious drawback, a "flaw", I'd agree. But I don't think it's a "design flaw". Giving classes flaws is often a great way to make the game interesting, and I think this discussion is proof that this is an interesting flaw.

[Phidius]

I was actually thinking the trap in the new house cannith quests with the big electrified floor you have to go accross before you can get to the control box. I watched it knockdown a capped rogue and nearly kill them on 1 failed save. You really didn't have trouble w/o evasion until 19? Not with clusters of spinning blade traps or flame traps or anything? I guess i'll see how it pans out trying to do them without evasion before deciding on the splash.
...

Ah, I'm a premie and haven't gone into the new quests yet.

For the other quests, though, I struggled more with a low Spot than I did without evasion. As long as I knew a trap was there, I was able to navigate/time it to get to the box.

One of the benefits of having a poor memory for trap locations is that every quest plays like new each time

[Calebro]

It's a balancing factor.
People claim that Artys are OP because of all the goodies that they get, but there are safeguards in place to keep them from being as OP as everyone claims.
No evasion on a comparatively squishy trapper is one of those safeguards.

[Gkar]

It's a balancing factor.
People claim that Artys are OP because of all the goodies that they get, but there are safeguards in place to keep them from being as OP as everyone claims.
No evasion on a comparatively squishy trapper is one of those safeguards.

Basically this...

Artis can ignore the trap boxes that are inside of traps to play it safe, or if they really want to be trap wizards, 2 levels of rogue are in order.

[DarkAlchemist]

Basically this...

Artis can ignore the trap boxes that are inside of traps to play it safe, or if they really want to be trap wizards, 2 levels of rogue are in order.

I would think 10 levels of rogue for the imp evasion or 9 monk since they are already low health.

I am so very glad my job was not taken from me as a Mech II rogue by some upstart arti.

[Adrenas]

I would think 10 levels of rogue for the imp evasion or 9 monk since they are already low health.

I am so very glad my job was not taken from me as a Mech II rogue by some upstart arti.

That settles it. Now I have to splash the rogue so I can be an upstart arti stealing your job .

[DarkAlchemist]

That settles it. Now I have to splash the rogue so I can be an upstart arti stealing your job .

Heheheh. I am just glad a pure can't do it well. 10/10 or 11/9 is as far as they can go and expect to live through some traps but I know Turbine will marshmallow them some more so all it will do on epic is 10 damage or something.