New UI = Griefing Tool

[THOTHdha]

I mean, really, minimum of 200hp for a VOD is recommended but I took a toon in there (rogue) that had 177hp and guess what...he was the only one who didn't die. VOD run last night....sorc with 190hp joins and 3 seconds later is booted. For some people, with limited time to play, stuff like this is just going to discourage them and send them packing which means Turbine loses that income.

Just base d4 HP for a level 20 character is 100. Even if they have a 10 CON, getting a +6 CON item, a Greater False Life item, and a +2 CON tome off the Auction House will boost that to 210 HP. If people can't even be bothered to do that, then maybe they shouldn't be trying to join groups where they are likely to be backpack riding.

[Hutoth]

Here's a recipe you might want to try... (it's an old recipe but a good one):

1. PlayerX says or does something mean or rude or obnoxious to someone they have never met...
2. Call PlayerX out on it - don't just sit there and let them get away with it.
3. If necessary /squelch PlayerX
4. Profit

[grausherra]

So you would rather have a Real gimp as long as they have some hp ?...

I don't care about someone's build, I care if they are going to die if a kitten sneezes on them.

Low dps groups / non-optimal groups / weird builds are all ok, as long as I have a chance to heal them. When a stiff breeze 1-rounds a character repeatedly it's a pain in the ass.

EDIT: If someone has low hp, they make the rest of the group work harder. I don't want to work hard to make up for someones lack of understanding of why 8 CON is bad. It's not some secret that con + toughness + hp enhancements are good. The pre-made paths don't yield 8 CON chars anymore, so people should be able to make a char at least as survivable as a pre-made.

[Jaid314]

yes, there are a few low-HP characters that have excellent players behind them to compensate.

but there are a LOT more really really really bad players that make characters with bad hit points, and i frankly can't blame anyone for booting based on that metric.

getting decent hit points is not hard. i'm not saying every caster needs to have 500 HP (though with sufficient gear, i'm pretty sure every caster *could* have that many), but getting around 300-350 is not hard, and does not require a major sacrifice, nor does it require a ton of difficult-to-acquire gear.

do i think *every* low-HP character needs to get booted? nope. but don't expect me to feel much sympathy for those who made their characters so low-HP. most of them are boot-worthy, and the ones that aren't can probably solo and probably have lots of friends who know them to group with as well anyways. i mean, i might make a pretty gimpy character from time to time... but i wouldn't inflict that character on other people without their explicit consent.

[cdemeritt]

yes, there are a few low-HP characters that have excellent players behind them to compensate.

but there are a LOT more really really really bad players that make characters with bad hit points, and i frankly can't blame anyone for booting based on that metric.

This is true... but why is it important to display this metric? to boot people who don't meet what you think they should have for HP? other than giving a healer the heads up for who is most likely to need their attention, is there any benefit to this?

[Kaldaka]

Just last night I heard of 10-15 guildies getting brought into party only to get demeaned about their lack of HP or SP and get booted.
I say we need to have the numbers removed.

Ummm ... maybe you should rethink your guild choice

[Nosferatu_Man]

/signed

Give us the ability to turn OFF the broadcasting of our stats.

Thanks!

Just a thought, but won't the players who do that automatically become suspect? Regardless of their actual HP / SP values, of course.

[Nerate_Mireth]

Hmmm...most all clerics I have talked to walk away from the game with headaches from healing now. MOST, not all, hate the new UI.

IMO, anyone can play the FOTM build with maxed out this or that. A good player can take a gimped toon and outlast the FOTM guys.

I build a toon based on my play style, not on what the "standards" are. I have some not-so-good toons that out DPS and out last these guys who "research" on the forums the best builds, copy it then don't know how to play it.

Any player can take a great build and make it good. A truly good player can take ANY build and make it great.

Ever hear of judging a book by it's cover? That's what judging EVERYONE by their stats is doing. Yes, alot might be bad, but there's those few that are great. As long as you can fill the roll I need and we succeed in the quest, I don't care. Don't expect me to chug sp pot after sp pot for you. But in the same breath, my toons all have SOME means of self-healing. More than I can say for alot of people who don't even carry cure serious pots.

[Nerate_Mireth]

Interesting, your have the option to turn off broadcasting your stats, but you don't. Its more obvious now, but never seemed to bother you enough to turn it off before.

http://my.ddo.com/character/ghallanda/nerate/

Why should I? If you're going to judge me based on some numbers instead of my abilities, then I don't wanna run with you anyway. And it's funny how everytime I login my 20 cleric, I have 10-12 tells in the first 2 minutes wanting me for this raid or that epic despite the fact that on the list for clerics there's 30+ level 20s. And most of the tells come from people I have run with only a couple of times but they remember my abilities and know how good I am. I was solo-healing Shrouds before it became popular.

Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.

[phum]

Using hp/sp as sole metric on character efficiency makes a mockery of the depth of the character customization in the game. This isn't wow or any of it's clones. I hope it never will be. But the shorter the list of viable (yes, viability is very much dependent on public opinion) playing styles becomes, the closer to those games DDO moves. When all you really choose is a, b, c or d, the whole customization don't mean a thing. For all those that this change wakes up to think they should invest more in hp, there will be dozens who will be griefed as their character's two values aren't up to a delusional par set by rumors and fear of risks.

Meh, got a headache from the silly ui. Well, I guess I can get used to it. Sry if the tone of the post is a bit aggressive. Guess at least it's a bit exaggerated, but imo the whole new ui thing is ridiculous.

[allaanon]

I mean, really, minimum of 200hp for a VOD is recommended but I took a toon in there (rogue) that had 177hp and guess what...he was the only one who didn't die. VOD run last night....sorc with 190hp joins and 3 seconds later is booted. For some people, with limited time to play, stuff like this is just going to discourage them and send them packing which means Turbine loses that income.

Limited timeplay has no bearing on you having 177hp. I frankly don't want to raid with toons that are better off as stones and I'm glad I now have a tool to see the issue before your inside and have 8 deaths.

I'll gladly buy some more **** in the DDO store to make up for losing some bad players subscriptions.

Thanks Turbine!

[TempestAlphaOmega]

This is true... but why is it important to display this metric? to boot people who don't meet what you think they should have for HP? other than giving a healer the heads up for who is most likely to need their attention, is there any benefit to this?

Mind you I can live with low HP from people (certain classes more so than others but then I think I have a decent understanding of game mechanics), however it's not griefing if you are the leader and you set certain criteria for your group. I see LFMs with "being picky" quite often, is that griefing.

If you are a leader and you are the one putting the group together and you want to waste....ummm sit around qualifying people, that is your choice and you should be allowed to do it.

Turbine doesn't say click what content you want to play and you will be placed in a random group as it fills (well other than that Mabar event?).

It works both ways, everyone should get to play with who (or at least the type of player) they want to. Some people are not as patient as others and should not be grouped with people who are more challanged/like being challenged.

Some people want to dominate content, crush it, never stand a chance of failure. This is fun for them and that is OK.

Some people want don't consider it fun unless success was a single HP difference from a wipe (and actually enjoy a good wipe as well - please nobody go there, I know it was a perfect set up). This is fun for them and that is OK.

Forcing different types of people to play together who will be frustrated with the others play for some reason is not good for anyone.

If someone doesn't want to play with me, I have no problem with that, it's a game it should be enjoyable for all.

How does it usually end when people with different loot division rules end up in the same run when the rules were not clear at the beginning (or ignored)? DRAMA THREAD on the forums.

How does it usually end when people with different completion modes (zerg vs stay with the group / smash all and get all optionals vs complete it quick as possible / etc) end up in the same group? DRAMA THREAD on the forums.

Having more options to better identify the people you would be best suited to adventure with? Good idea and should be used.

To the person I quoted, I know you didn't use the work griefing in your post, I was responding in general and got as far as your post before having to respond.

[Razcar]

Look.

Good players generally build good toons. They might choose a race or make another choice that is not "optimal", for flavor or fun, or make some off-the-wall character experiments, but generally they have a sound game knowledge and make informed choices based on what works and what doesn't. And thus they don't run around with a 170 HP 0% Fort rogue, because they can easily make choices that gives them a 400 HP 100% Fort rogue instead.

And inexperienced (or just plain bad) players generally build worse toons. Not always, but generally. Maybe they lack the skill, the experience or they just can't be bothered to make a sound character. So if the character is really bad, unfortunately the risk is that the player won't know how to play it either.

In this game HP is an important stat. That's just a postulate. Sure, a good player can compensate low HP, but why would he needlessly handicap himself, knowingly and willingly? He won't - because he's a good player. A bad player on the other hand might very well have really low HP - due to ignorance, laziness or disinterest.

And yes, there are of course exceptions - especially with bad players that have learnt to mask their inadequacies through hiding behind a big pile of Hit Points. But these players often cause less problems, since their HP acts as a cushion when they fall on their behinds. And yes, I'm sure there are good players that manage with really low HP as well, maybe to make a point or to show off.

But the trend is that low HP = inexperienced or ignorant, decent HP = more experienced/knowledgeable, and if not, they at least have a small life vest.

Note well that I do not think it is good for the game to auto-boot players because of low HP, mainly because in a lot of content either the rest of the party will compensate, or it's so easy it just doesn't matter. And more importantly it is better to educate than to punish and lock out. But the "prejudice" is not really that. Really low HP is a warning bell.

[Grymli]

Cheers, everyone.

I was doing my monthly tour of the forums... to remind myself why I only come on a monthly basis... when I was struck by a theme running through the U11 complaint posts:

1. HPs listed oppenly on the life bars? Do you really want to give the win-at-game-lose-at-life wannabe elites more ammo to shoot at newbs?

+1. More difficult epics now that many players had the chance to use easy epics to gear up? Removing rungs in the middle so those already at the top of the ladder can climb higher? What happens to the players just reaching the middle? Add "epic II" for those who want the challenge/bragging rights, sure... but don't make it impossible for newer players who haven't spent years gearing up.

=2. Considering the maturity level of many PUG leaders, the combination of the two updates might make it tough for a newly capped first toon even to get into an epic PUG.

I'll stop there... as posts and miniskirts should be just long enough to cover what's important while staying short enough not to bore the viewer.

Grym

[Ebuddy]

I never liked the idea when I saw it on the Lam threads and I still abhore it. I haven't yet had time to play U11 but here's how I will come to a final conclusion:

Once the novelty has worn off, I will compare the number of "boots" I have been given to date (zero) with the number I experience under the update and compare the number of (stat specific, such as HP or SP) "declines" I have been given to date (4) with the number I experience under the update. I will only apply this to raid groups (I'll even factor out epics) and see how they compare.

Look, I've been playing this game for some time now. I am neither an expert nor have I memorized all of the quests in the game. My toons rarely die in raids (unless it's a wipe) and I start all of them with AT LEAST 14 con. By lvl 20 (usually before), they have a +6 con item, a GFL item, heavy fort and have eaten a +2 con tome. What they don't have is shroud or epic HP stuff. I think that for those who have been around a while, I've developed an OK reputation.

If after all that, I start getting booted or declined for quests, I will officially declare it a griefing "fail".

{steps off of soapbox}

[Carpone]

The UI is no different than the party leader screening characters based on MyDDO, or asking applicants to link boss beater weapons.

[TekkenDevil]

I would like to be able to turn off the numbers of the other players in the party, but keep the numbers on my own bars... havent seemed to manage that yet.

This x 100. Turbine just thought they'd put some pretty and clever herpderp in there, with absolutely no regards to functionality.

"Hurf durf, da nerdz will figoor somthin out! Dey wil get uzd to eet! Now we totully luk like we car for da gam cuz we spent da time to maek dis new derp!"

[Purgatory]

/signed

Give us the ability to turn OFF the broadcasting of our stats.

Thanks!

this wont help it at all Id boot people if they were turned off.

I mean what are they hiding it for anyways. I can guess why and id probly be 80% right and 80% = good enuf reason to boot.

not wanting to group with poeple who make no effort what so ever for what ever reason is a right everyone has and should have.
just get some hp for god sakes. A little effort goes a long way.

[gloopygloop]

Why do people keep saying that deciding you don't want to be in a party with someone is "griefing"?

[Pfold]

The UI is no different than the party leader screening characters based on MyDDO...

This.

Typically, I used to just laugh at those that died to really dumb things. You know, no fort, dumped con, 1 shot by a kobold, etc. I considered it tough love.

The new ui is just a time saver. It also makes for comical guild chat