New UI = Griefing Tool

[Mikula]

I love the new HP/SP bars they make my job easier...
We had a lvl 18 sorc in group with 214HP only needed a cure mod, the pally had 600Hp he rated a heal.

^This

As a spellsinger it also means I don't need to glance around everyone's heads to make sure spell vigor is still going. I can just look at the blue bars see quickly who's sp bar isn't growing and sing again.

Wish the bars were just a little bit bigger though. I find myself less aware of them moving anymore unless I'm focused on them.

[Seikojin]

I have the line of thinking: if anyone griefs because they can see someone else's hp, that is their issue. As a leader, this tool is very useful in building the right party for the hardest jobs.

Someone else had already said it, it allows a good leader the insight into their party makeup. Now they know if they need an extra healer, or what kind of dps their casters will bring to the table, etc.

Griefing is a problem with the player doing the griefing, not the ui.

[thewalex]

Refusing to take low-hp characters into a group isn't 'griefing' by any definition of the word.

Methinks the OP needs to google the definition of "Griefing".

These two hit the nail on the head. Using the new UI for "Griefing purposes" would mean identifying the sucker target of casting sleet storm, grease, greater dispel magic, globe of invulnerability, or Kormor's Belt clickies (while jumping a lava pit).

With regards to the issue discussed at hand, I had a difficult first life as a cleric (28pt build), as I was familiar with P&P, where CON was okay at 10 or 12 and I had no idea what enhancements were. So long as there are PUGs that cater to elitist groups that scan and kick potential members to run content on the hardest difficulty settings AND other groups that cater more casual players, have more lenient restrictions, and run on lower difficulty settings (more social/fun) I see no need to remove the stats. If the PUG groups become predominantly one or the other, there will be issues in the community. That being said, healing raids with the new UI gives me headaches .

[The_Brave2]

Or, you could make a decent build.

Hiding your hp is a bad move and should not be implemented, having people be able to see it will make people think twice about dump con builds.

I mean, really, minimum of 200hp for a VOD is recommended but I took a toon in there (rogue) that had 177hp and guess what...he was the only one who didn't die.

200hp for VOD? really? 177hp Rogue? really?

Wow...unacceptable /boot

id say for VoD it would be minimum 350 for any toon, and all other raids would be 450+

if I can attain a steady 600+ HP on my caster, you can on your rogue

[RecklessDawn]

I mean, really, minimum of 200hp for a VOD is recommended but I took a toon in there (rogue) that had 177hp and guess what...he was the only one who didn't die. VOD run last night....sorc with 190hp joins and 3 seconds later is booted. For some people, with limited time to play, stuff like this is just going to discourage them and send them packing which means Turbine loses that income.

I am sorry, but 200 hp is laughable for a character running VoD. I really hope this is a sick joke. On my caster at level 20 I was easily able to achieve upwards of 700 hp with one toughness feat. If someone is joining my team with anything less than 400 hp for an epic or an endgame content? I didn't my.ddo them in the first place

This update will speed up my acceptance of newer players, but if their Hp isn't what it NEEDS TO BE they will be booted. HP is not optional, especially with changes to raids made.

[RecklessDawn]

I seriously don't know what planet you've been living on, if someone with less than 200 hp joined my group above level 10 I would seriously ask how they managed such a feat.

Even with no toughness, zero items, and con as a dump stat that is bad.

To quote Anchorman, 'How'd you do that? Heck, I'm not even mad; that's amazing.'

[Alaunra2010]

I reject the argument that a leader kicking someone on account of low health is tantamount to griefing. The complaints against it amount to a trust issue between those who normally lead, and those who normally follow.

We "followers" probably need to recognize that the leader is ultimately the guarantor of a group's success. While a numerical evaluation of a character may not be a clear indicator of the player's capabilities, it is real-time data at the leader's disposal to make an initial evaluation. It can be important in a PUG where the leader doesn't know the other players.

As a dedicated healer, I both love and hate the number feature. On the plus side, as mentioned before, it will allow me to be much more efficient with spell point expenditure, since I will be much less inclined to overheal when I have numerical data at my disposal.

On the other hand, I am self-conscious about having a little over 300hp. I have offset this using several things, but I can't possibly expect every group leader to know how I am prepared to deal with contingencies. What I rely on is my good name as a healer on Sarlona, and the leader's willingness to ask questions before kicking me out.

In time, if I decide that I do not like the way leaders judge me, then I must become a leader myself, and judge others by a different measure.

[countfitz]

I like it. Knowing who dumped con is important. I'm not saying drop the 300 hp rogue, but the 150 hp rogue... Well, that takes SKILL in dumping con that much, and I'd like to know what's going on. I wouldn't even grief him, I'd wait.

I also play on Thelanis, and we are known as the nicest and best of the servers. I know this is gonna suck for the grief servers (Khyber) who are all about "LEET"ism and finishing quests 10% faster than we do. But we like each other over here, have fun, and enjoy playing. So letting us see useful information isn't that bad.

Now, if we could all get along like Thelanis does, this wouldn't be a problem.

GO THELANIS!

[Malethus]

I think having the hp numbers is a good thing, as a healer it definitely makes your life much easier. Although seeing the hp bars is much harder, I definitely think visibility needs to be improved on but that’s another issue.

As for players with low hp, yes it is your character you have a right to build it however you like and equally I have a right to party with who I want to and not party with who I don't want to as long as I don't insult/abuse them in the process.
---
Also if you do get rejected from a party and you believe it done for an invalid reason (I have on a multi class rogue - because the leader didn't understand my build) it’s probably a good thing because the party was being led by an inexperienced leader.

Personally in quest run on normal difficulty I don't mind your hp/build as long as you don't die and contribute to the quest but for raids especially on higher difficulties I think it makes sense to have higher hp. Also it doesn't take uber gear to get to decent (not great) but decent hp if you plan your build early on and take toughness/con.

[freekay]

It's easier for you to point and call me gimp than try to show me how to make a better toon.

Ask and you shall receive. Seek and you shall find. Complain on the forums that the big meanie-head elitists don't cater to your gimp, and you shall be LOLed at.

[Ebuddy]

Here are some other issues to consider:

1. For those who say that if your toon's HP is sub-standard do something about it I would assert that for some it may not be THAT easy. It could require re-speccing a feat or more or it could mean a LR or GR - all of which have a cost that ultimately is grinding (more favor for TPs or plat to buy a shard on the AH) or spending real-world money. That may be unteneble for some players who play on a budget. In addition, "sub-standard" is very much a subjective measurement.

2. The HP I have when I join a group may very well be different than the HP I actually employ. As an example, my lvl 20 AA ranger starts a quest without her Minos or her Con +6 (GFL) belt in favor of an Archmagi and Wis item. I do it this way so I can burn SP on buffs. Once those are given out, I switch everyting in - it's a difference of over 100HP. It means when I join a party it will be with 312 HP but once I've switched them back I'll have 422 unbuffed. I have at least 3 toons that have a similar equipment configuration. I don't want to get booted only to have to send a tell to the party leader to explain myself.

3. One of the fundamental precepts of D&D and DDO is that it's a team/group game. Sure, there are those who solo but generally speaking this is for groups. Why introduce a metric that puts at risk the chances of someone being able to join and enjoy a party? Everyone here agrees that a skilled player can make pretty much any toon serviceable, if not "good". Over time, those who have played the game for a long period of time have come to learn some of these players. That said, the exceptional influx of people who haven't had the benefit of time will make it very difficult for them to learn who the players are.

4. Aside from the visual challenges for healers, any healer worth his/her mana can tell with a pretty reasonable degree of accuracy, without the actual numbers, how much they need to cast heals/cures.

5. For those who would argue that maybe the gimps will "get a clue" how do you know that through constantly becoming a soul stone and or the refusal of others, over time, to not let them in certain quests doesn't already accomplish this? It seems to have worked quite well over the last 5 years or so.

6. MYDDO is a good, anecdotal, example. The only saving grace there is that it's unreliable so many just don't use it anymore. When it first came out however, there was most certainly a lot of examination of it.

Having the numbers really doesn't provide any real gameplay value, except to those who will use it to judge. My fear is that with the sudden growth in populations, there aren't enough people who will use the data judiciously.

(Apologies for the heightened, maximized, extended wall of text)

[freekay]

Here are some other issues to consider:

1. For those who say that if your toon's HP is sub-standard do something about it I would assert that for some it may not be THAT easy...

3. One of the fundamental precepts of D&D and DDO is that it's a team/group game. Sure, there are those who solo but generally speaking this is for groups...

...Having the numbers really doesn't provide any real gameplay value, except to those who will use it to judge. My fear is that with the sudden growth in populations, there aren't enough people who will use the data judiciously.

I worked my butt off for the toons/gear I have as a result of:
* Asking more experienced people for build advice
* Recognising when I have a dud toon and re-rolling/LRing it when it didn't work out
* Grinding out the base required gear such as +6 stat items, GFL, Heavy Fort, Greensteel, THEN and ONLY THEN progressing to more difficult options such as Epics/Elite raids

But what I get from your post is that I'm meant to overlook all of that when some undergeared gimp hits my LFM for ToD because it's not fair to him as a casual/budget constricted gamer? Being a casual gamer is not an excuse for having a hissy fit when you get declined due to the severe lack of your toon. FYI in terms of hours played per week, I'd fall under the Casual Gamer category, but that doesn't stop me from making the most of my time in-game.

If you're looking for that "Yay, everybody gets a trophy" feeling, maybe you should consider Junior Baseball instead.

[gloopygloop]

3. One of the fundamental precepts of D&D and DDO is that it's a team/group game. Sure, there are those who solo but generally speaking this is for groups. Why introduce a metric that puts at risk the chances of someone being able to join and enjoy a party?

Since DDO is a team game, I encourage everyone to be a team player and GET SOME HP.

[Uchuujin-San]

Though i agree that HP isn't the be all and end all of stats, it's very, very, very important. Rule of thumb is to put as much points into con as possible without sacrificing your primary stats (generally around 6 build points in con) and get at the least con+6 and GFL. Low HP can be mitigated by smart play involving aggro control, buffs, playing well, etc; but at the end of the day you will get hit.. HP is a buffer to see how many you can take.

When i run my healers at end game i groan whenever i see someones red bar drop and my FREE CLW hit them for 25-50% unless they have some ungodly amount of amp. A) that means that they don't know how to mitigate damage, B) that means i have to pay special attention to them so they don't die when they get tickled by a mob. and i'm far too much of a gimp healer to do that. Finally it means that i have to expend resources, whether it be sp or expendables, specifically to keep that toon alive, resources which i could be using to the benefit the entire group rather than one individual.

Epics are considered the hardest quests in game for a reason. Mobs hit hard and hit fast, if i'm on my healer and i have to continuously drip feed someone heals for no good reason, they will be a stone soon enough as that's a waste of my sp and potentially a waste of precious mnemonics (i'm a tightarse and proud of it). You don't need epic gear to run any but the very hardest epics and even then you can usually get away with having solid end game gear, this means at a minimum you should have Con+6, GFL, Shroud HP/SP item, Min2/Lit2/appropriate lootgen weapon if you're melee.

Being able to complete Epics is a privilege not a right, don't expect to waltz into an epic PUG with a newly capped and/or undergeared 20 and think you're entitled a spot; go and run shroud, VoD, Hound, Amrath quests and gear up. Gear doesn't equal skill, but it shows that the person playing the character understands the metagame and is a good indicator of whether they understand the game, how to play their character and whether they'll be a drain on party resources.

It's a team game, especially end game raids and epics, even more so now. It's also meant to be fun. Someone who continuously dies and needs to be raised doesn't make it fun for the divine/bard/party nor for the person dying all the time. And i'd assume most people don't like to join a party and feel useless and that they're not contributing. So please, get geared, after all.. if you're good enough to play the hardest content with minimal HP and gear.. imagine how much easier it'll be when you have a significant HP buffer and are appropriately geared.

/end rant

[Ebuddy]

I worked my butt off for the toons/gear I have as a result of:
* Asking more experienced people for build advice
* Recognising when I have a dud toon and re-rolling/LRing it when it didn't work out
* Grinding out the base required gear such as +6 stat items, GFL, Heavy Fort, Greensteel, THEN and ONLY THEN progressing to more difficult options such as Epics/Elite raids

But what I get from your post is that I'm meant to overlook all of that when some undergeared gimp hits my LFM for ToD because it's not fair to him as a casual/budget constricted gamer? Being a casual gamer is not an excuse for having a hissy fit when you get declined due to the severe lack of your toon. FYI in terms of hours played per week, I'd fall under the Casual Gamer category, but that doesn't stop me from making the most of my time in-game.

If you're looking for that "Yay, everybody gets a trophy" feeling, maybe you should consider Junior Baseball instead.

Heh...

I work my butt off at my job. I work my butt off getting my kids too/from sporting activities or helping them with their homework, I work my butt off to keep my wife happy ( you know what they say ;oD ) but one thing I do not, will not ever work my butt off for is a MMPOG. I am and I have always been a casual player. I play for fun. I'm LUCKY if I play 10 hours in an entire week (and probably average closer to 5). I read the forums, I ask for advice, I use the character planners. I also pay attention in groups, let the leader know if I'm new to a quest (and especially new to a raid) - often before I hit the LFM and I take direction well. I think that in my tenure here in DDO I've become a reasonably good player and rarely, if ever, a detriment to the group.

I've said it before and I will say it again, good, smart, game play and a willingness to pay attention will trump gear any day, any quest. So all I ask is for the ability to have others decide whether or not I'm "worthy" of their group based on my ability to play and willingness to learn and not whether or not I have the number of HPs they think I should have. A suck player with a barb who has 900 HP still sucks.

But ok, fine... it's still new so we'll see what happens. Perhaps I'm wrong and if I am, I will cut myself a big slice of humble pie (with milk).

[Newbie]

I don't want to play with an *** that thinks he's an elitist anyway.

[Newbie]

Though i agree that HP isn't the be all and end all of stats, it's very, very, very important. Rule of thumb is to put as much points into con as possible without sacrificing your primary stats (generally around 6 build points in con) and get at the least con+6 and GFL. Low HP can be mitigated by smart play involving aggro control, buffs, playing well, etc; but at the end of the day you will get hit.. HP is a buffer to see how many you can take.

When i run my healers at end game i groan whenever i see someones red bar drop and my FREE CLW hit them for 25-50% unless they have some ungodly amount of amp. A) that means that they don't know how to mitigate damage, B) that means i have to pay special attention to them so they don't die when they get tickled by a mob. and i'm far too much of a gimp healer to do that. Finally it means that i have to expend resources, whether it be sp or expendables, specifically to keep that toon alive, resources which i could be using to the benefit the entire group rather than one individual.

Epics are considered the hardest quests in game for a reason. Mobs hit hard and hit fast, if i'm on my healer and i have to continuously drip feed someone heals for no good reason, they will be a stone soon enough as that's a waste of my sp and potentially a waste of precious mnemonics (i'm a tightarse and proud of it). You don't need epic gear to run any but the very hardest epics and even then you can usually get away with having solid end game gear, this means at a minimum you should have Con+6, GFL, Shroud HP/SP item, Min2/Lit2/appropriate lootgen weapon if you're melee.

Being able to complete Epics is a privilege not a right, don't expect to waltz into an epic PUG with a newly capped and/or undergeared 20 and think you're entitled a spot; go and run shroud, VoD, Hound, Amrath quests and gear up. Gear doesn't equal skill, but it shows that the person playing the character understands the metagame and is a good indicator of whether they understand the game, how to play their character and whether they'll be a drain on party resources.

It's a team game, especially end game raids and epics, even more so now. It's also meant to be fun. Someone who continuously dies and needs to be raised doesn't make it fun for the divine/bard/party nor for the person dying all the time. And i'd assume most people don't like to join a party and feel useless and that they're not contributing. So please, get geared, after all.. if you're good enough to play the hardest content with minimal HP and gear.. imagine how much easier it'll be when you have a significant HP buffer and are appropriately geared.

/end rant

And who are you to decide this? Life went on fine before the update, why change now?

[gloopygloop]

And who are you to decide this? Life went on fine before the update, why change now?

What exactly is he "deciding"?

What I saw was an explanation of why HP are important and a suggestion encouraging people to put some effort into HP.

There was no "GIT MOAR HP U NOOBS!" or "If you don't have x HP by level y, I'll boot you!" or even a "SHR PLZ" in his post. I see no problem with his polite suggestion.

[toaf]

as a player that has a cleric and 2 other toons at lv 20.

under200 HP = not trying
200-300 hp = trying just does not have the nice gear

400 + hp someone that has his stuff in order

it's really about not getting 1 shot = dead
no reason to kick someone out of party. (can give them hell..but not kicking them out

ranger/cleric/sorc

[Uchuujin-San]

And who are you to decide this? Life went on fine before the update, why change now?

I'm just an Elitist arse.

What changed now is that Raid bosses hit harder and have much much more HP than before U11. The former is generally not so much of an issue, but combined with the latter, it turns the fight into a longer battle of attrition where SP usage needs to be managed. Where before you could afford to just throw a mass cure or heal between mass heals to top up the squishies, doing so now, esp on harder, longer fights is going to unnecessarily strain the healers SP. For example epic Velah has something like 3 times the amount of HP and hits alot harder, sometimes 150 a swing, even a melee with 400 hp is going to die in the 6 second cooldown of mass heal unless a cure/heal is used. We had 3 healers on that run, and a decent group, not dripping with epics but solid gear. Having to throw 1-2 mass cures/heal between mass heal can really put a strain on SP, even 2k worth of it once bases were done. Not hard to get more than 400 hp esp on a melee..

Take it as the opinion of an elitist arse.