6ranger/2rog/12paladin GTWF build! need opinions!

[-Zyxas-]

Half-decent ideas going around here.
12 paladin/6 ranger/ 2 rogue is somewhat decent, but isn't a really good build anymore (just somewhat useful).

Skills you will want: Concentration, UMD, 1 in tumble, Balance, Open Lock would be usable if you carry an "Escape" item for it, spot is good for any melee to see invisible/sneaking stuff (but can be skipped). NO jump/swim - jump is high enough with strength and a full jump spell, swim doesn't matter at all (possibly in crucible... but doesn't require skill investment). Heal is not worth the small benefit it gives you. Hide is not useful most of the time, because it's very reasonable to have an invisibility clicky, but move silently can still be useful if you like sneaking.

Enhancements, your AC is not going to be very high at later levels so Favored Defense should be dropped then. Favored Resistance is just not worth it with paladin-augmented saves. The paladin abilities that allow you to raise dead are generally not worth the AP cost (or the cost of using it), instead use UMD and raise scrolls if you really want to be able to carry out this function. Rogue haste boost is a very good dps increase while it lasts. Rogue skill boost can be useful for UMD (and locks if you take OL). Sprint boost 1 is all you need unless you run out of useful things to spend AP on (my definition, not yours). Exalted smites and Divine Sacrifice are very good to have for your damage, as well as Divine Might. Sneak attack training is a decent damage increase. Extra lay on hands is a good choice, but it isn't 100% required. Favored attack/damage are a good idea. Racial and class toughness are basically a requirement for anyone (maybe not the tier 3 or 4 ones since it gets a bit expensive). Defender of Siberys won't be all that useful to you since there's basically no way you'll be tanking with this build, so KotC is a good choice (although not AS good anymore with endgame moving slightly away from evil outsiders). Taking Tempest 1 is not such a great investment, as others have said.

Feats: For all characters, Toughness. For ANY melee, power attack and imp crit (whatever type you'll use most of the time). For a TWF, GTWF, and khopesh is a good choice. Paladins can get some use out of metamagics (not all that much though).

With even base stats, you'll want all of your level ups in strength, not 1 in con.

I believe most of this is good advice. Don't waste your limited resources (skills, feats, enhancements, level ups...)


EDIT: What you just said about feats... You gain 3 feats by not taking Tempest. You gain all those bow feats and the first 2 TWF feats just from ranger levels - it has nothing to do with the PrE. So by taking tempest, you are starving your pool of feats. By not taking tempest, you can get more toughness, metamagics, exotic proficiencies, power attack (ANY melee should have), etc. The PrE is ~2-3% gain of dps as others have said. Switching to khopesh can be about the same gain, along with 2 more feats, such as toughnesses for a large gain in hp/survivability (44 gain divided by ~420 hp already = about 10% gain).

[Espario]

Half-decent ideas going around here.
12 paladin/6 ranger/ 2 rogue is somewhat decent, but isn't a really good build anymore (just somewhat useful).

Skills you will want: Concentration, UMD, 1 in tumble, Balance, Open Lock would be usable if you carry an "Escape" item for it, spot is good for any melee to see invisible/sneaking stuff (but can be skipped). NO jump/swim - jump is high enough with strength and a full jump spell, swim doesn't matter at all (possibly in crucible... but doesn't require skill investment). Heal is not worth the small benefit it gives you. Hide is not useful most of the time, because it's very reasonable to have an invisibility clicky, but move silently can still be useful if you like sneaking.

Enhancements, your AC is not going to be very high at later levels so Favored Defense should be dropped then. Favored Resistance is just not worth it with paladin-augmented saves. The paladin abilities that allow you to raise dead are generally not worth the AP cost (or the cost of using it), instead use UMD and raise scrolls if you really want to be able to carry out this function. Rogue haste boost is a very good dps increase while it lasts. Rogue skill boost can be useful for UMD (and locks if you take OL). Sprint boost 1 is all you need unless you run out of useful things to spend AP on (my definition, not yours). Exalted smites and Divine Sacrifice are very good to have for your damage, as well as Divine Might. Sneak attack training is a decent damage increase. Extra lay on hands is a good choice, but it isn't 100% required. Favored attack/damage are a good idea. Racial and class toughness are basically a requirement for anyone (maybe not the tier 3 or 4 ones since it gets a bit expensive). Defender of Siberys won't be all that useful to you since there's basically no way you'll be tanking with this build, so KotC is a good choice (although not AS good anymore with endgame moving slightly away from evil outsiders). Taking Tempest 1 is not such a great investment, as others have said.

Feats: For all characters, Toughness. For ANY melee, power attack and imp crit (whatever type you'll use most of the time). For a TWF, GTWF, and khopesh is a good choice. Paladins can get some use out of metamagics (not all that much though).

With even base stats, you'll want all of your level ups in strength, not 1 in con.

I believe most of this is good advice. Don't waste your limited resources (skills, feats, enhancements, level ups...)


EDIT: What you just said about feats... You gain 3 feats by not taking Tempest. You gain all those bow feats and the first 2 TWF feats just from ranger levels - it has nothing to do with the PrE. So by taking tempest, you are starving your pool of feats. By not taking tempest, you can get more toughness, metamagics, exotic proficiencies, power attack (ANY melee should have), etc. The PrE is ~2-3% gain of dps as others have said. Switching to khopesh can be about the same gain, along with 2 more feats, such as toughnesses for a large gain in hp/survivability (44 gain divided by ~420 hp already = about 10% gain).

i just recently learned that my brother has played this build. nearly exactly as i have it. 10% melee speed boost permenently tht stacks with rogue haste boost is not something tht shld be passed by. the +2 stacking AC is great. and my brother has 52 ac which is great for a TWF build. as someone earlier stated, the build shld be enjoiable. and honestly tempest wld do just that. power atk is just 5 damage. yes its useful but the 10% speed increase way over powers tht 5 extra damage. i had nothing better to put the AP into then ressurect. so it worked fine. i put some into swim because with a mithral full plate you still have to swim. Tempest spine without a water breathing item is incredibuly hard to not die from if you dont have atleast 10+ swim. and plus, it makes you swim faster. and with 15+ heal you cn fully heal at a shrine if you have low hp. so it saves time when soloing and makes life easier for the healer providing there is one there. plus this will be TR'd and then done again. the +1 into con added 20 extra hp to teh build. it does more then tht extra pt into str would have done.

[-Zyxas-]

i just recently learned that my brother has played this build. nearly exactly as i have it. 10% melee speed boost permenently tht stacks with rogue haste boost is not something tht shld be passed by. the +2 stacking AC is great. and my brother has 52 ac which is great for a TWF build. as someone earlier stated, the build shld be enjoiable. and honestly tempest wld do just that. power atk is just 5 damage. yes its useful but the 10% speed increase way over powers tht 5 extra damage. i had nothing better to put the AP into then ressurect. so it worked fine. i put some into swim because with a mithral full plate you still have to swim. Tempest spine without a water breathing item is incredibuly hard to not die from if you dont have atleast 10+ swim. and plus, it makes you swim faster. and with 15+ heal you cn fully heal at a shrine if you have low hp. so it saves time when soloing and makes life easier for the healer providing there is one there. plus this will be TR'd and then done again. the +1 into con added 20 extra hp to teh build. it does more then tht extra pt into str would have done.

It is NOT 10% melee speed. It is 10% offhand proc rate - huge difference. The +2 AC is a shield bonus, does NOT stack with shield wand/clicky, sure it might be useful while leveling though. They changed Tempest speed->offhand and untyped->shield a LONG time ago. 52 AC is hardly ever useful at all in raid/epics/high level quests, I'm planning a build to have mid-80s for AC with a weapon in each hand. Power attack is 5 damage per swing, I have not seen anyone pass that up on a melee build - people hunt down items to boost their damage by 2 for months. The resurrect, sure if your AP works out that way, was just saying it isn't the best idea if there are other choices. Nobody takes swim except joke builds and wizard builds once they get way too many skill points from in - if you're that worried get a swim item, and underwater action is always fairly cheap. Heal skill IS junk, you can instead use a wand or scroll to heal that tiny bit of HP. "But that costs me money" - instead you could take haggle and have more money while buying wands than your heal setup would without buying wands. +1 con is not always 20 HP, it depends on your gear, tomes, base amount... if it works out that way for you, fine. Please follow general rules of thumb for building, after you fulfill those needs THEN you can put flavor things in such as your swim and heal (both of which could be dropped, you can make up for it with a swap-in item).

[FrozenNova]

The builds being thrown around in here have
low hitpoints
poor dps
no utility.
I am not sure why you would be inclined to roll any of them.

Tempest I is not a useful splash on a paladin. Paladin smites and lay on hands are based on level; taking only 14 paladin means loss of capstone and kotc3; taking only 12 paladin means loss of capstone and loss of zeal and loss of kotc3. The only thing this split would have over pure or 18/2 would be.. manyshot.

[Espario]

The builds being thrown around in here have
low hitpoints
poor dps
no utility.
I am not sure why you would be inclined to roll any of them.

Tempest I is not a useful splash on a paladin. Paladin smites and lay on hands are based on level; taking only 14 paladin means loss of capstone and kotc3; taking only 12 paladin means loss of capstone and loss of zeal and loss of kotc3. The only thing this split would have over pure or 18/2 would be.. manyshot.

its a fun build. idc bout technical ****, i have 8 toon slots so i can spare 1 to make a "fun build". the dps is good(with the right gear) and there is always room and money to change it around if needed. 350 hp isn't low. its decent. just not considered to be high. 400-600 hp is tank. so 350 for a dps who cn heal himself is pretty barible if i do say so myself

[FrozenNova]

its a fun build. idc bout technical ****, i have 8 toon slots so i can spare 1 to make a "fun build". the dps is good(with the right gear) and there is always room and money to change it around if needed. 350 hp isn't low. its decent. just not considered to be high. 400-600 hp is tank. so 350 for a dps who cn heal himself is pretty barible if i do say so myself

I frankly disagree with your numbers.
I'd call a tank 700-800 hp.
I'd call a frontline melee 500-600 hp.
I'd call 400 hp a wizard or sorceror, or high 400's a rogue.
I'd call a 350 hp melee a joke.
But different strokes, etc..

Moreover, where'd the "heal himself" come from? UMD'ing scrolls isn't going to happen where it matters - while under attack. With 12 paladin levels and no metamagics you have junky lay on hands and no serious spell healing. This toon has no useful in-combat self healing.

Not sure where the 'fun' is either. 'fun' is usually about neat class features, like lay on hands, spell healing, traps, arcane archer, huge dr, or similar. It usually means a form of contribution which isn't contained in the character's normal role. For instance, the build in my sig has a enourmous amount of self healing potential. Tiny, compared to a favored soul, for instance - but of course, that's not the point. The fun is being completely independant from healers. Meanwhile, what we're looking at here is a character that contributes nothing besides poor dps and a reserved spot for backpack piking.

[fatman111386]

you are aware, WIS is REQUIRED to cast any ranger/paladin spells >,> 8 wont cut it. and my paladin lvl 14 runs with 12cha and uses a +6 item and has no problem healing 200+ on his lay on hands.

yes it is, but your max level spell for both classes is 4 so only a 14 wis is required to cast all spells, meaning a 8 with a +6 wis Item can cast any spell you have. the higher base cha is required to get divine might, its an enhancement that lets you expend a turn to gain +2,4,6, or 8 dmg to your attacks for 1 minute. 14 base cha gets +2 16 +4 18 +6 and 20 +8, so with a base 16 cha and a +2 tome you can get as much extra dmg a swing as if you had 12 extra points into str. its a must have ability for a dps pally.

I have a pally on orien that has tred back into pally, and my only suggestion to make leveling easier is to take hunter of the undead early on and focus on ac ( easy to get to a high enough to matter all the way up to and past hard shroud flagging quests with just a few easy to obtain chain items) on a TWF build thanks to the dex required for the feats, once you reach end game just respec into pure dps. all in all I have a friend with a build close to this one ( did not take the rogue for evasion to get the level 4 pally spells, zeal is awsome) and he adored it, fast leveling, lots of dps, very survivable and all around good combo.

[Dragavon]

its a fun build. idc bout technical ****, i have 8 toon slots so i can spare 1 to make a "fun build". the dps is good(with the right gear) and there is always room and money to change it around if needed. 350 hp isn't low. its decent. just not considered to be high. 400-600 hp is tank. so 350 for a dps who cn heal himself is pretty barible if i do say so myself

Now, you come to forums asking for advice. We are trying to help you. From your posts and the build you suggest, it is obvious you have little experience with what is challenging at lvl 20.

Claiming that 350HP is plenty proves your ignorance.

And it is not a character that can heal himself, without concentration you cannot heal yourself when you need to, which is healing yourself in the thick of battle when you take too much dmg, all you can is top up yourself between fights. That is not selfhealing......

Not going to waste more of my time trying to beat some sense into you

[Crann]

Now, you come to forums asking for advice. We are trying to help you. From your posts and the build you suggest, it is obvious you have little experience with what is challenging at lvl 20.

Claiming that 350HP is plenty proves your ignorance.

And it is not a character that can heal himself, without concentration you cannot heal yourself when you need to, which is healing yourself in the thick of battle when you take too much dmg, all you can is top up yourself between fights. That is not selfhealing......

Not going to waste more of my time trying to beat some sense into you

^ This ^

[Such755]

I mostly read here to learn, I am no veteran or anything, but I just feel the urge to say:
350 HP is far from decent. It's what I had on my sorcerer at lvl 20, and even on my sorcerer that was mostly away from the heat of battle, it felt low.
Any melee class should have at least 450-500 HP, and that's if they're not going to tank.
You call this a "Fun" build, but belive me when I say, you will not have a BIT of fun when you die repeatedly, and you will, because melee get hit a lot, even if they're not the main tanks.

Again: 350 HP = squishy. 500 HP = good enough for non-tank melee to survive.

[FengXian]

If you're interested in build like this you might either go paladin 18 / monk 2 (still enough feats and DoS III which is very good....dps/hate tank I guess)
Or your split (pally12ranger6rogue2/monk2) oh a Helf. At that point it would be a very good idea to go AA over tempest tho, since you get manyshot and bow str for free anyway. You'd have a huge 20 secs ranged burst damage in addition to your melee. I just posted a build that uses this split, if you're interested: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...04#post4084204