Crater, WF Stalwart 18/Rogue 2 Flexible Tank

[cforce]

With the somewhat recent changes to shield mastery coupled with the upcoming changes to the Defender lines, it's time for me to respec my long-standing Fighter 12/Pally 6/Rogue 2 back into a proper S&B tank. I'm considering eating a pair of +3 Hearts on this, so I figured I'd better get some feedback on my plan.

My personal take on tanking: I like to build a tank that is sufficiently tough in the face of end-game bosses when in S&B mode, but also recognizes that S&B mode is something that's only worth using 10% of the time, and is still capable of *decent* DPS the rest of the time. Also, personally I spend a lot of time soloing due to real-life requirements, so self-sufficiency is a must. (Being able to heal yourself is also sometimes nice to have to save a party wipe.) Also, tanking short-man, random makeup parties is a hard requirement for me. I'm running stuff with 2-3 party members with guildmates more often than running raids.

Build Goals:
- Top notch S&B tanking capabilities:
- 90+ raid-buffed AC achievable
- 25% shield-based damage reduction
- 700+ hit points
- 30+ Fort/Reflex saves
- Warforged Immunities (This is why I'm willing to ignore will save -- immunities + PfE is sufficient for me)
- Evasion
- Sufficient hate generation to retain aggro
- "Max DPS" within S&B mode
- Self-sufficient (Heal/Reconstruct via UMD)
- Decent DPS mode

The list of feats that I flagged as "required" for a top-tier S&B mode build, capable of maxing S&B DPS, was actually quite sizable:
Bastard Sword, THFx3, Shield Masteryx2, Improved Shield Bash, Toughness, CE, Dodge, PA, iCrit:Slashing [12]
At 12 feats already + Mithral Body, this implied at least Fighter 12 as a "must", which in turn led me to include WF:Slashing and WS:Slashingx2 as requirements. So, between feat requirements, Evasion, and UMD, Fighter 18/Rogue 2 seemed like the only possible class level split. The intent is to spend 90% of the time in THF mode and not feel too gimped, even though the build is optimized for S&B, and the final build plan manages to inlcude both tiers of Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Improved Crit, the full line of Warforged PA enhancements, and both 30% Haste Boost and 10% damage boost (for when I run out of Haste Boosts).

Here's the final build I came up with, in not-quite-character-planner format.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34(kinda)
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Crater
Level 20 True Neutral Warforged Male
(18 Fighter \ 2 Rogue)

Starting
Abilities Base Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1)
Strength 16 (+3 tome +3 enh +3 exc +7 item +6 stance = 38)
Dexterity 14 (+2 tome +7 item +1 enh = 24)
Constitution 16 (+2 tome +2 enh +6 item +6 stance = 32)
Intelligence 12 (+2 tome)
Wisdom 6 (+2 tome +6 item = 14)
Charisma 12 (+2 tome +6 item = 20)

Skill Ranks
Balance 11
Intimidate 23
Jump 12
Use Magic Device 23


Level 1 (Rogue) Feat: (Selected) Mithral Body
Level 2 (Fighter)Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Level 3 (Fighter)Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge,Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Level 4 (Fighter)
Level 5 (Fighter)Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Level 6 (Fighter)Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
Level 7 (Fighter)Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Level 8 (Fighter)
Level 9 (Fighter)Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise,Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Level 10 (Rogue)
Level 11 (Fighter)
Level 12 (Fighter)Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons,Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Level 13 (Fighter)
Level 14 (Fighter)Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Level 15 (Fighter)Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash
Level 16 (Fighter)Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery
Level 17 (Fighter)
Level 18 (Fighter)Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting,Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Level 19 (Fighter)
Level 20 (Fighter)Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave


Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender III
Enhancement: Fighter Bastard Sword Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III


checking some stat-related goals:

AC
10 base
15 armor (12 if only Dragontouched, 14-15 Epic Docents)
7 dex
9 shield
5 protection
5 CE
5 natural (Crystal cove hat)
4 Stalwart stance
4 insight
3 Stalwart
3 Dodge (item)
3 guild buffs
2 Dodge (item)
2 Alchemical
1 Dodge (item)
1 Dodge (feat)
1 Haste
---------------
80 self-buffed

2 recitation
4 bard song
5 aura
------------
91 with help

Hit Points
20 base
180 fighter levels
12 rogue levels
220 CON
22 toughness feat
60 toughness enh
45 shroud
30 GFL
20 toughness item
10 draconic
*1.2 stance
------------------
742

UMD
23 ranks
5 CHA
4 GH
6 shroud skills item
2 luck
--------------------
40

Saves
11/9/6 class levels
11/7/2 stats
5/5/5 item
4/4/4 GH
3/3/3 SD stance
2/2/2 luck
--------------
35/30/22


Feedback welcome. Any obvious mistakes I've made? Suggestions for improvements based on the original build goals?

[SetofBs]

Looks pretty good I think, even if he is a toaster

Obviously its not relevant for your purposes, but if I was leveling this guy I would want to fit Cleave in much, much earlier. It's just too good at lower levels to pass up.

[Balkas]

I would definitely ditch Cleave, ISB, and ISM all for Toughness feats.

You're pretty light on hit points for a tank, and you only took 1 rank of Healer's Friend. ISM only adds 5% and the DPS that ISB adds is negligible. Cleave doesn't help you during tanking.

[cforce]

Looks pretty good I think, even if he is a toaster

Obviously its not relevant for your purposes, but if I was leveling this guy I would want to fit Cleave in much, much earlier. It's just too good at lower levels to pass up.

Yeah, I'm big on Toasters for tanking, it turns out. I tend to build for the 1-20 game just as much as the end-game (read: I like my decisions to be flexible in the face of future content), so having immunities helps for corner cases like "gathering beholder aggro".

I'm having trouble adjusting to Cleave being useful! I'd kinda like it earlier, too, if I changed my mind and ended up doing this as a TR instead of a respec. Mayble I'll rework that a bit for posterity...

[grodon9999]

I would definitely ditch Cleave, ISB, and ISM all for Toughness feats.

You're pretty light on hit points for a tank, and you only took 1 rank of Healer's Friend. ISM only adds 5% and the DPS that ISB adds is negligible. Cleave doesn't help you during tanking.

This. With 88 AC and 740 HP the CURRENT Elite Horoth kicks my ass. New and improved is gonna rock your world, especially since you will not be as easy to heal as a fleshy. In that regard humans and dorfs are better tanks in the modern game.

And it's very hard to count on pally aura unless you actually are the pally.

[grodon9999]

Yeah, I'm big on Toasters for tanking, it turns out. I tend to build for the 1-20 game just as much as the end-game (read: I like my decisions to be flexible in the face of future content), so having immunities helps for corner cases like "gathering beholder aggro".

You don't have a silver-flame necklace or mantel of the worldshaper?

I'm having trouble adjusting to Cleave being useful! I'd kinda like it earlier, too, if I changed my mind and ended up doing this as a TR instead of a respec. Mayble I'll rework that a bit for posterity...

Still would drop this for more toughness's.

[cforce]

This. With 88 AC and 740 HP the CURRENT Elite Horoth kicks my ass.

To be transparent, I don't have experience tanking Elite Horoth, so all of my thinking here is informed by the "he said, she said" of the forums, but I've seen opinions ranging from "must have at least 800" to "600 is plenty". Heck, people have posted screenshots of Elite runs tanked by a Rogue 20 -- his (possibly inaccurate) myddo entry listed him with 460 hit points, unbuffed. So, I've tended to take claims of 800 hit points being necessary with a grain of salt. Was this 740 hit points and 25% global damage reduction, or just 740 hit points with pajama AC? Adding 25% damage mitigation would make that 740 hit points "feel like" 984 (*1.33, essentially) from someone without damage mitigation. Last I saw, shield mastery was reducing spell damage, as well.

... especially since you will not be as easy to heal as a fleshy. In that regard humans and dorfs are better tanks in the modern game.

Yes, agreed -- outside of the obvious strategies where the Reconstruct route is sometimes preferred. I like WF for the reasons outside of pure raid tanking scenarios, so I can accept this downside vs. fleshies -- this has always been the case, really. I try and sport some healing amp gear to make up for it where I can.

[grodon9999]

To be transparent, I don't have experience tanking Elite Horoth, so all of my thinking here is informed by the "he said, she said" of the forums, but I've seen opinions ranging from "must have at least 800" to "600 is plenty". Heck, people have posted screenshots of Elite runs tanked by a Rogue 20 -- his (possibly inaccurate) myddo entry listed him with 460 hit points, unbuffed. So, I've tended to take claims of 800 hit points being necessary with a grain of salt. Was this 740 hit points and 25% global damage reduction, or just 740 hit points with pajama AC? Adding 25% damage mitigation would make that 740 hit points "feel like" 984 (*1.33, essentially) from someone without damage mitigation. Last I saw, shield mastery was reducing spell damage, as well.

Number 1 rule of a tank: hold aggro

Number 2 rule of a tank: Do not die

On hard I went from 760 to 13 in about a second and a half when I failed a disintegrate save and ate a meteor storm. Any fewer HP than that and I was dead. A shield wouldn't have done a thing to help that.

With the new Horoth if you die and he turns on the squishier party members it's a wipe (according to reports, I'll let you know first hand on Monday).

Yes, agreed -- outside of the obvious strategies where the Reconstruct route is sometimes preferred. I like WF for the reasons outside of pure raid tanking scenarios, so I can accept this downside vs. fleshies -- this has always been the case, really. I try and sport some healing amp gear to make up for it where I can.

Your purpose, your reason to be is a raid tank. if something doesn't support that function it's the wrong choice for the build. other than the healing curse stuff, which on an AC build isn't important, WF gives you so little compared to the other races. Biggest issue is the healing penalty, you NEED gloves of the claw and a lot of other gear to make up for this that could be slotted with arguably better choices.

A Helf with the Monk dilly can fit in 40% healing amp without a SINGLE piece of gear slotted towards it. Would allow you to more easily fit in 3-piece abishai. Helf could evern afford to not slot Healing amp on a ToD ring.

Human 30% racial amp and another feat for more toughness.

Dwarf gets saves bonuses and have as many HP as WF.

I like 30% + 20% amp over normal, you get that and you practically can be scrolled through anything. You can't get their on a robot.

[cforce]

ISM only adds 5%...

Dropping incoming damage from an 80% rate to a 75% rate is pretty similar to adding 6.6% on top of your hit point total (0.8/0.75 = 1.066). 6.6% of 742 is 49 -- by the numbers, ISM should offer about 2 times the survivability of one Toughness feat, if it is indeed working on spell damage as some have reported.

...and the DPS that ISB adds is negligible.

ISB is more than some people think. Take iCrit -- on a Bastard Sword build, iCrit adds +base damage on 10% of swings. Let's take an example with 38 STR, a +5 HB silver GEOB Bastard Sword, a Seeker +6 item, a crafted Bashing/Shield Spikes shield, and Power Attack on. Heck, we'll throw in full bard songs, as well.

On 17-18, iCrit adds 10.5 (base + enhancement) + 14 (STR) + 12 (seeker) + 8 (PA) + 9 (bard song) + 10.5 (Holy burst) = 10% chance of +64 damage, or an average 6.4 per swing.

On 20% of hits, ISB adds 3.5 (base) + 7 (bash/spikes) + 14 (STR) + 8 (PA) + 9 (bard song). (I'm leaving off the +5 enhancement bonus -- I'm just assuming that's still bugged, but the STR/PA should be hitting.) That's a 20% chance of 41.5, or an average of +8.2 per swing, more added DPS than iCrit.

Even if we drop bard songs and power attack, they're still about even. I technically should consider dropping iCrit for Toughness first!!! OK, I kid -- iCrit helps on THF mode, so it would still get the nod. But while it's not *a lot*, it's at least in the same class of added DPS as iCrit.

Cleave doesn't help you during tanking.

Here I'd disagree completely. Cleave doesn't help with raid boss tanking. There's plenty of other tanking it does help with. Sins comes to mind as a pretty good example. There are plenty of times where I'm short manning Sins with an arcane or two and no healer. Cleave is good for getting mass aggro, there.

[LeLoric]

My stalwart is an 18/2 but he is Human. Many of the reasons have been outlined above but also consider gear. Fleshies can go with duelist leathers for the +4 dodge bonus and accomodate large amounts of dex bonus.

The con bonus is nice for wf and some of the immunities but with increased threat available the extra dmg isn't as important.

Humans give healing amp, versatility, and another feat.

Half elfs give amp, versatility and your choice of diletante.

Dwarfs give the same health benefits better saves and no healing penalty.

Halflings give +1 ac and higher dex capabilities.

I would probably take any of the above over wf currently for a tank.

[cforce]

... Any fewer HP than that and I was dead. A shield wouldn't have done a thing to help that.

Just to re-highlight something from earlier -- I've read reports that the damage reduction from shield mastery is also applying to spell damage. I'll confirm myself after a respec, obviously, but just wanted to throw that out there.

Your purpose, your reason to be is a raid tank.

Ah, I see where you read something into the build goals that wasn't there! My reason to be *isn't* to be a raid tank -- I'm not optimizing around that case. My reason-to-be is to be a flexible tank in many different scenarios. Raids, sure. Also, short-manning with one or two other squishy party members, and no healer. Also, switching into tank mode in Sins if a PUG seems to be over their head. Also, gathering beholder aggro from party members who can't handle it. Also, whatever other random situation comes up. I spend less than 10% of my time doing raids, in general. The number of times out of those that I'll also be playing the role of tank... it won't be a lot! I want to be able to meet the "minimum requirements" but also don't want to optimize to be "the most uber raid tank possible" at the expense of my other goals.

I definitely agree that, if I was building something purely optimized for raid tanking, there would be a lot of other decisions I'd make differently, but I really want to be flexible with this build and handle a variety of different tanking requirements....

[Mangloid]

Your build is very similar to RockCandy http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198820

The main difference is she went TWF and not THF. This is an older build, but with a little polish and some updated gearing will still be very relevant.

Might take a few minutes to study it.

[cforce]

Ah, I see where you read something into the build goals that wasn't there! My reason to be *isn't* to be a raid tank -- I'm not optimizing around that case. My reason-to-be is to be a flexible tank in many different scenarios.

Also, calling myself out on this one! I re-read my original post, and I wasn't clear enough about this. I've edited the OP to try to make this more obvious!

[cforce]

Your build is very similar to RockCandy http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198820

The main difference is she went TWF and not THF. This is an older build, but with a little polish and some updated gearing will still be very relevant.

Might take a few minutes to study it.

Yep, very familiar with RockCandy -- it's a very good build, and actually pretty similar to my current incarnation of Crater -- I splash Pally 6 for damage, but otherwise the same kind of focus. Now that S&B doesn't completely suck, though, I wanted to get back to my roots. Trying to still fit TWF while also fitting all S&B damage feats isn't really viable -- believe me, I tried a few. About the closest I came was going Dwarf to save two feats, and then dropping both Weapon Specializations so that I could fit THFx3, TWFx3, all the shield feats, etc...

[grodon9999]

Just to re-highlight something from earlier -- I've read reports that the damage reduction from shield mastery is also applying to spell damage. I'll confirm myself after a respec, obviously, but just wanted to throw that out there.



Ah, I see where you read something into the build goals that wasn't there! My reason to be *isn't* to be a raid tank -- I'm not optimizing around that case. My reason-to-be is to be a flexible tank in many different scenarios. Raids, sure. Also, short-manning with one or two other squishy party members, and no healer. Also, switching into tank mode in Sins if a PUG seems to be over their head. Also, gathering beholder aggro from party members who can't handle it. Also, whatever other random situation comes up. I spend less than 10% of my time doing raids, in general. The number of times out of those that I'll also be playing the role of tank... it won't be a lot! I want to be able to meet the "minimum requirements" but also don't want to optimize to be "the most uber raid tank possible" at the expense of my other goals.

I definitely agree that, if I was building something purely optimized for raid tanking, there would be a lot of other decisions I'd make differently, but I really want to be flexible with this build and handle a variety of different tanking requirements....

How much of that gear do you already have? it just seems like such a waste to go for all that equipment to do something half-assed. Tanking is more of a full-assed thing.

[cforce]

My stalwart is an 18/2 but he is Human. Many of the reasons have been outlined above but also consider gear. Fleshies can go with duelist leathers for the +4 dodge bonus and accomodate large amounts of dex bonus.

The con bonus is nice for wf and some of the immunities but with increased threat available the extra dmg isn't as important.

Humans give healing amp, versatility, and another feat.

Half elfs give amp, versatility and your choice of diletante.

Dwarfs give the same health benefits better saves and no healing penalty.

Halflings give +1 ac and higher dex capabilities.

I would probably take any of the above over wf currently for a tank.

Just to make extra sure my position here is clear -- I'd absolutely agree that all of the above would make a better decision for a pure raid-tank build. In fact, if I ended up TR'ing, I'd strongly consider Dwarf. (Probably only Dwarf, because I'd want the added saves to make up for losing immunities.)

The reason WF Immunities are on the list of build requirements: soloing. Getting held sucks when solo. Can't scroll FoM! Also, that 10-charge trinket can run out of charges fast when you're soloing an area with multiple beholders and they're all targetting you .

[Morlen]

Just wondering: Is there merit to taking IC:Blunt for your shield attacks? I know your build doesn't include it, but it's something that keeps popping into my head. Call me dumb if I am. ^_^

[cforce]

How much of that gear do you already have? it just seems like such a waste to go for all that equipment to do something half-assed. Tanking is more of a full-assed thing.

I think I missed which gear you're talking about? Stuff I mentioned in the AC breakdown? I've still got to get me a +3 Dodge item at some point...

re: assed-cardinality -- I definitely understand what you're getting at. I just tend to prefer builds that can be more situation-flexible at the expense of being "the best" at a specific situation. I'd rather have "good" in one situation and "pretty good" in a bunch of others.

For example, I generally won't run a caster without accepting some DC or spell pen gimpiness in exchange for melee ability. I only recently moved my Sorc 18/Pally 2 to pure, and I actually don't really like it all that much!

[cforce]

Just wondering: Is there merit to taking IC:Blunt for your shield attacks? I know your build doesn't include it, but it's something that keeps popping into my head. Call me dumb if I am. ^_^

I'm not sure if it works on shields, but if it does, it's adding only ~5% damage to the already only 20% chance of the bash -- far less than +1 point of damage per hit, on average.

[cforce]

OK, now that I've thoroughly tried to defend my position on the Warforged side, let me switch sides and see if I can argue myself for a fleshie variant.

As I mentioned before, I'd probably want to go Dwarf if I went *any* fleshie option. Dropping Warforged immunities would lead me to add a high will save requirement -- say, at least 35+ -- to feel comfortable about various non-FoM debilitating scenarios. But, since the Dwarf option would be a TR instead of a LR, I'll cheat somewhat and compare a 34-point Dwarf to the 32-point WF.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34(kinda)
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Crater
Level 20 True Neutral Dwarven Male
(18 Fighter \ 2 Rogue)

Starting
Abilities Base Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1)
Strength 16 (+3 tome +3 enh +3 exc +7 item +6 stance = 38)
Dexterity 15 (+2 tome +7 item +1 enh +3 exc = 28)
Constitution 16 (+2 tome +2 enh +6 item +6 stance = 32)
Intelligence 12 (+2 tome)
Wisdom 8
Charisma 12 (+2 tome +6 item = 20)



Feats: +2 from not needing Mithral Body or Bastard Sword, so I'll add in as much will save help as I can: +Force of Personality, +Iron Will.

Action Points: Warforged Con becomes Dwarven Con, Specialization changes from BS to DA, and we drop Healer's Friend, WF PA, and Fighter Armor Mastery for +14 AP. The 14 extra AP becomes:
Fighter Tower Shield Mastery II [6] to get the full +9 dex bonus while still retaining the 25% damage mitigation
Dwarven Spell Defense III [6] Moar saves!!!
Dwarven Axe Damage I [2] Would have loved to fit both damage enhancements, but saves come first.

Rechecking stat goals, I think I have to assume two seperate sets of armor. I'd be going with the Parasitic Breatplate with +Will Save slotted when short-manning or soloing, and the Epic Duelist Leathers when in a full party or raid situation.

AC
10 base
9 armor
9 dex
9 shield
5 protection
5 CE
5 natural (Crystal cove hat)
4 Stalwart stance
4 insight
4 dodge
3 Stalwart
3 Dodge (item)
3 guild buffs
2 Dodge (item)
2 Alchemical
1 Dodge (item)
1 Dodge (feat)
1 Haste
---------------
80 self-buffed

2 recitation
4 bard song
5 aura
------------
91 with help

If maintaining Evasion with Epic Duelist Leathers, AC is actually break even, although it's worth noting that Epic DL is waaaay easier to get than the RD Docent!

Then, I've always got the option to forgo evasion, and squueze out one more point of AC via Epic Calvalry plate. (Dex bonus would be capped at 6 after assuming sloting Nimbleness.)

Saves
11/9/6 class levels
11/9/5 stats
5/5/5<10> item <situational Parasitic Breastplate>
4/4/4 GH
3/3/3 SD stance
2/2/2 luck
5/5/5 dwarven
0/0/2 feats
--------------
40/37/32<37>

Hm. That set of saves worked out better than I thought. In fact, I could even drop a save feat and grab <drumroll> another Toughness, and still hit the 35 mark I set for myself.

I'm going to have to chew on this a bit more. If I can get over my fear of being held/level drained while soloing or short manning, the Dwarven path offers more on a lot of other fronts. Thinking....