Echoes of power

[Vellrad]

Hi, I wanted to play a little with a paladin.
What do I need to get echoes of power?
Description says that its granted automatically with magical training (wiz/sorc/cle/fvs), but I wonder if I could get it via feat.
If its not possible, is it good idea to multiclass pal? I just wanted it to having infinite divine sacrifices and heals, or is it a bad idea to multi only for echoes?
If its good, which class?
I though about FvS for more mana, or cleric for more turns (do paladin's turns stack with clerics?) or wiz for extra metamagic feat (probably something to boost heals).

If thats important before you answer, its my first melee, I was playing only wizards (2 capped) and bard (1 at lv13).

[oradafu]

Only Clerics, Favored Souls, Wizards and Sorcerers can get the feat. That means the only way a paladin can get it is to multiclass into one of those classes.

[Dandonk]

Yes, it is a bad idea to multiclass only for echoes of power. The paladin has a very good capstone, and losing that for a few non-empowered/maxed cures every few seconds once you run out of SP is not a good trade, IMO.

If you want to be able to heal longer, there are items such as Concordant Opposition and the Torc for getting SP back on being hit.

But mostly: You'll get a decent SP pool later on. You also have Lay on hands. Possibly even the Unyielding Sovereignty ability. And you can use wands. So no need to miss out on capstone for a minor benefit.

[-Zyxas-]

Yes, it is a bad idea to multiclass only for echoes of power. The paladin has a very good capstone, and losing that for a few non-empowered/maxed cures every few seconds once you run out of SP is not a good trade, IMO.

If you want to be able to heal longer, there are items such as Concordant Opposition and the Torc for getting SP back on being hit.

But mostly: You'll get a decent SP pool later on. You also have Lay on hands. Possibly even the Unyielding Sovereignty ability. And you can use wands. So no need to miss out on capstone for a minor benefit.

Very important part highlighted. Second paragraph is also a good argument against Echoes (even the "caster" classes can't rely on Echoes to do what they do). Last paragraph is also true. This quote reflects my opinion on the matter also.

[Droken]

Cleric and paladin turns do not stack. The only thing that stacks is your overall turning level.

Generally, it's a horrible idea to splash a level of caster into a paladin build.

Echoes is worthless after the low levels. You're not going to be relying on it once you're 10+. A paladin is not the same as a wizard who uses spell-like abilities. Most of the time, you're swinging your weapon and not using any mana at all.

[Vellrad]

Yeah, but looting bauble/torc on melee is CRIME*, anyway I'm more concerned for divine sacrifice than heals (as I don't run solo frequent, so there is always healer).
I was seriously thinking about taking wiz for echoes and maximize.


*Remember those millions threads 'omg pal/ranger XXX pulled torc, and looted, no roll omg!' and 'omg pal/ranger rolled on torc PM for name omg!', and hundreds of 'OMG!!1! Plz name so I can squelch n00b ASAP plox!!1!' responses.

[karnokvolrath]

*Remember those millions threads 'omg pal/ranger XXX pulled torc, and looted, no roll omg!' and 'omg pal/ranger rolled on torc PM for name omg!', and hundreds of 'OMG!!1! Plz name so I can squelch n00b ASAP plox!!1!' responses.

Lol. Awesome.


You can still get a torq on your 20th, you can solo bauble runs or put lfms up for "giving away my mats, want your bauble" runs.

Co/Op...well no body gets to tell you what to do with your mats.


As others said, stay pure ...or TR your wiz (that already has a torq) into a pally

[pHo3nix]

Yeah, but looting bauble/torc on melee is CRIME*, anyway I'm more concerned for divine sacrifice than heals (as I don't run solo frequent, so there is always healer).
I was seriously thinking about taking wiz for echoes and maximize.


*Remember those millions threads 'omg pal/ranger XXX pulled torc, and looted, no roll omg!' and 'omg pal/ranger rolled on torc PM for name omg!', and hundreds of 'OMG!!1! Plz name so I can squelch n00b ASAP plox!!1!' responses.

Absolutely not, a paladin or a ranger looting torc/bauble isn't doing anything wrong. Just don't care about those people who complain, more often than not those are the same ones who would loot a SoS on their 8 str wizard cause someday in some possible TR they could use it.

If you want to self-heal well and have infinite divine sacrifice make a conc opposition gs, get a torc, splash 2 monk lvls so you can get quicken and maximize (+ evasion with great saves) and you are set

[Alternative]

Echoes of power give you back up to 12sp recharging 4sp every couple seconds. That's enough to cast clw but by the time your paladin reaches lvl4 it will be inefficient already.

Torc + conc opp is the best way to get close "unlimited self healing" and personally I don't remember any threads where paladins or rangers were criticised for looting a torc, wouldn't worry about that personally.

Just keep in mind that in order to have decent and RELIABLE self healing even at end game you need meta feats like maximise + quicken at least. Which means 2 monk levels might be necessary depending on the rest of the build. Also healing amp and devotion enhancements might be a problem on AP starved paladin. It's doable but every little bit of self sufficiency closes certain dps options.

[SirValentine]

Yeah, but looting bauble/torc on melee is CRIME*

Torc I can sort of understand that attitude, as it is hard-to-get raid loot that will generally see better use on most primary casting characters than on rangers or pallies. But your loot is still your loot.

But do people really whine about someone looting their own Bauble? Weapons Shipment is NOT on a 3-day timer. Anyone who wants a Bauble can farm that quest to their heart's content.

[Vellrad]

Thx for replies.

MCing for echoes = bad idead, noted.
Out of curiosity, I wonder if paladin's turns stacks with cleric's.

Why multi to monk?
I understand some feats, but I'm going to use weapons, so I'll be perma uncentred, so there's no special benefits from multing into monk over ftr, unless I miss something.

And yes, there was drama threads on forums about someone looting something which is said (by who IDK) to be designed as not his class, like thorne's, torcs, +3int tomes on barbs etc.
Also, I would feel bad from looting torc on pal, because my wiz never saw it, nor in raid chest, not on 20th list >.<

[r3dl4nce]

Why multi to monk?

2 monk level = evasion. Great paladin saves = you always save traps/aoe spells

[Vellrad]

2 monk level = evasion. Great paladin saves = you always save traps/aoe spells

I'm not so sure about this.
I got 8 base dex, probably won't have slot for +6dex item, no superior stability possible, so I will probably end with low reflex.

[r3dl4nce]

Human 18pal/2monk with 16 starting cha and 8 dex
reflex save 12
+8 ( CHA +7item+3exceptional+4tome+2enahcement=+16 CHA)
+4 (+1 aura +3 aura enhancements)
+5 resistance item
-----
29 and I think I'm missing some items.....

[BruceTheHoon]

I'm not so sure about this.
I got 8 base dex, probably won't have slot for +6dex item, no superior stability possible, so I will probably end with low reflex.

+7 paladin/monk base (pulled from 'behind')
+2-3 dexterity (+6 item +2 tome)
+2-4 aura
+5 resistance item
+4 greater heroism
+1-2 luck
+omg charisma

Hitting 30 reflex shouldn't be a problem, even without dexterity.
I have +34 unbuffed and started with dexterity score of 11. I was never purposely going for high save equipment - this just happened.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

IIRC Evasion only works wearing light or no armor.

Level 2 Paladin adds their Charisma Mod to all saves. With the good saves and 2 levels of monk you are VERY surviveable.

GS Conc Op item and/or you get a Torc give you back HP and SP when you are hit in combat. This really helps to mitigate alot of damage and works great!

Cleric level 6 with Radiant Servant I gets Regenerating Turn Undead attempts, and healing Aura/burst.

Although a build for fun, leveling a completionist life, or just general play (Non-Epic) etc might be...

Human or Helf (Sorc Dilltante) 2 Monk /6 Cleric /12 Paladin 14 CHA, 14/16 CON, 10 WIS, STR/DEX/INT as Desired

Pros- Evasion, Regenerating Turns, Healing Bursts, Divine Might, UA attack animation when using wraps and unarmored, Paladin stuff, etc

Cons-May get weird looks.

[elraido]

You want unlimited self healing on your paladin? On low levels, use wands. On high levels use heal scrolls.

[Enoach]

When multiclassing the idea is to sacrifice something for something else more desired to build a stronger character.

In this case adding 1 level from any caster class to gain Echo of Power will lose access to the Capstone Weapon of Good - Aligns any weapon and adds Good Damage (Even more against undead/Evil Outsiders).

Based on this I would say that its not a good trade.

Now as for Torc and Con-Op gear - While these items are sought after by Casters they are not effective unless there is consistant incoming physical damage. These items need for the wearer to be hit and/or damaged to proc. While there are Caster types that can take full advantage of this item - there are others where this playstyle does not work for them. That said I feel that Paladins and Rangers (melee) can get alot out of a Torc and Con-Op gear.

Bauble - Anyone using SP that can be used to buff party members and Self, or can use SP for healing/curing should consider this item. It will make buffing feel less expensive and still allow SP for heat of battle. This frees up Casters from buffs that can be given by others, giving more SP to use to help complete the Quest in other ways then buffing.

[Ralmeth]

A Torq on a Paladin is awesome and extremely useful and I would loot it in a heartbeat if I were you. Your loot is your loot so if someone gives you a hard time about it just stand up for yourself, say you are going to get good use out of it and if necessary tell them where to put it. Having said that I am also a big believer in sharing good loot with my fellow party members that you just fought with side by side. If I'm only going to get a marginal benefit out of something or may not use it that much I typically like to see if someone else could use it.