3...2...1...that's a WIPE!!!

[slothinator]

Last night, pugging shroud. Typical group - lvl 17 - 20, 2 clerics - except for that lvl 15 fvs. Leader, and others, ask the group several times if anyone is new; nothing. Based on messages in chat, everyone can hear voice and is responding to other questions and posts. Let's go.

Part 1 is clockwork, move on to part 2.....

Part 2 takes 4 rounds. Yes you read that right; we had to kill each lieutenant 4 times. It's now stunningly obvious we have some first timers. The leader, and others, ask again several times; if this if your first time, please speak up. We need to know so we can explain things to you. Nothing, so time for part 3.

Part 3 is smooth, except for the person who let themselves out of their puzzle without solving it and telling anyone. We find the last puzzle, solve, and no wall. Loot and gather for buffs.....but wait!!! Someone points out the little blue dot on the map in the NEXT part of the shroud!!!

The lvl 15 fvs has gone through the portal into part 4. Well, they will be fine if they don't move, so lets - DING! It is now obvious who our fist timer is, right? Not even close. One of the clerics goes through the portal in an attempt to rescue the fvs - DING! OK, we have some high level toons, and ****** you can solo heal right?

DING!!!

Yes, the 2nd cleric, and our last "healer", has stepped through the portal into part 4 to rescue our lovable, bumbling divine friends. The collective thud of facepalms heard through speakers was deafening. Seems we had three first timers, and they just wonderfully outed themselves in successive order.

People, please, if it's your first time in a quest, and someone asks "is this anyone's first time?", say yes. It's ok. People love to explain shroud to new people. It's not that big of a deal. Same for other quests. Even better - if it's your first time, don't wait to be asked; SPEAK UP! Trust me, the group will appreciate it. If they do grief you or boot you for being a first timer, well, that's a group you didn't want to be in anyway.

TL,DR version - 3 divines play ******** dominoes and zerg into part 4 of shroud without rest of group; hilarity ensues.

[guero]

I've never been to Shroud, but I've grouped hundreds of times in other MMOs. If no one acknowledged it was their first time, but it was painfully clear that there was at least one person who had never been there before, why didn't the leader just stop and explain? He didn't need to know who he was explaining it to exactly, did he? Why insist on letting a wipe happen just because the newbies didn't speak up?

I'm not advocating being silent about being new. I agree with encouraging people to speak up. But, if it was so obvious that at least one person had never been there before, I think the blame for the wipe is also shared by the leader for not explaining.

[Talon_Oakenleaf]

I've never been to Shroud, but I've grouped hundreds of times in other MMOs. If no one acknowledged it was their first time, but it was painfully clear that there was at least one person who had never been there before, why didn't the leader just stop and explain? He didn't need to know who he was explaining it to exactly, did he? Why insist on letting a wipe happen just because the newbies didn't speak up?

I'm not advocating being silent about being new. I agree with encouraging people to speak up. But, if it was so obvious that at least one person had never been there before, I think the blame for the wipe is also shared by the leader for not explaining.

Excellent point +1

[jaegarnel]

I've never been to Shroud, but I've grouped hundreds of times in other MMOs. If no one acknowledged it was their first time, but it was painfully clear that there was at least one person who had never been there before, why didn't the leader just stop and explain? He didn't need to know who he was explaining it to exactly, did he? Why insist on letting a wipe happen just because the newbies didn't speak up?

I'm not advocating being silent about being new. I agree with encouraging people to speak up. But, if it was so obvious that at least one person had never been there before, I think the blame for the wipe is also shared by the leader for not explaining.

That's true, but the problem there is that if these particular newbies wouldn't admit to being new and instead of sensibly following the lead of people who knew the quest, went on first through a portal despite having no idea was behind it, they werent't just new, they were noobs.
You can't explain anything to noobs, because they're not going to listen to you anyway.

I'm a new enough player that plenty of quests are relatively unfamiliar to me even if I've done most of them at least once by now.
When I see someone in the group who clearly knows the quest better than I do, my reaction is NOT to just go ahead and do my own thing anyway.
I follow them unless they actually tell me to go do something else. It's the sensible thing to do, imo.

[Phidius]

That's true, but the problem there is that if these particular newbies wouldn't admit to being new and instead of sensibly following the lead of people who knew the quest, went on first through a portal despite having no idea was behind it, they werent't just new, they were noobs.
You can't explain anything to noobs, because they're not going to listen to you anyway.
...

This. If someone doesn't listen to/comprehend "if this is your first time please speak up", they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of listening to/comprehending more detailed instructions.

[Bobthesponge]

I've never been to Shroud, but I've grouped hundreds of times in other MMOs. If no one acknowledged it was their first time, but it was painfully clear that there was at least one person who had never been there before, why didn't the leader just stop and explain? He didn't need to know who he was explaining it to exactly, did he? Why insist on letting a wipe happen just because the newbies didn't speak up?

I'm not advocating being silent about being new. I agree with encouraging people to speak up. But, if it was so obvious that at least one person had never been there before, I think the blame for the wipe is also shared by the leader for not explaining.

No.

Per the OP, the leader requested several times if there were any players new to the Shroud and got crickets. If you don't speak up and then screw up it is YOUR fault. Even more so if you jump ahead of the group in a quest you do not know.

I have NEVER been in a Shroud where a first timer spoke up and was mocked/harassed for not knowing the quest. EVERY time the leader patiently explains what happens and what to do if things go badly ("part 2 - if you aggro the middle stay there and die").

People need to take responsability for themselves. Not speaking up/typing is not an excuse.

[Therigar]

If no one acknowledged it was their first time, but it was painfully clear that there was at least one person who had never been there before, why didn't the leader just stop and explain?

^^ This.

[Postumus]

I've never been to Shroud, but I've grouped hundreds of times in other MMOs. If no one acknowledged it was their first time, but it was painfully clear that there was at least one person who had never been there before, why didn't the leader just stop and explain? He didn't need to know who he was explaining it to exactly, did he? Why insist on letting a wipe happen just because the newbies didn't speak up?

I'm not advocating being silent about being new. I agree with encouraging people to speak up. But, if it was so obvious that at least one person had never been there before, I think the blame for the wipe is also shared by the leader for not explaining.

A number of shroud 'leaders' seem to want the raid to run itself - which they usually do. They toss up an LFM for Shroud and take the role more of organizer than leader. They don't say a word until someone makes a mistake and the autopilot starts to go awry. Even then it's usually along the lines of 'do you guys know what you're doing???' or 'don't do X!!' right after someone does X.

I am surprised though that no one was yelling by the time the second cleric went DING.

[TheDjinnFor]

TL,DR version - 3 divines play ******** dominoes and zerg into part 4 of shroud without rest of group; hilarity ensues.

Classic. +1

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Somehow I doubt the 3 divines were the first timers. Odds are that if they're first timers they won't know how to nuke as divines, and as such it is very unlikely that they were the reason you failed part 2 so many times.

In part 4 my guess is that the FS jumped in (first timer I suppose), and the clerics who followed underestimated the amount of mobs that were RIGHT on the other side as the FS had probably pulled em to the start location.

Either way; I feel for you.

[slothinator]

Somehow I doubt the 3 divines were the first timers. Odds are that if they're first timers they won't know how to nuke as divines, and as such it is very unlikely that they were the reason you failed part 2 so many times.

In part 4 my guess is that the FS jumped in (first timer I suppose), and the clerics who followed underestimated the amount of mobs that were RIGHT on the other side as the FS had probably pulled em to the start location.

Either way; I feel for you.

I think part 4 illustrates the first timer thing more than anything else. If you've run shroud, especially as a divine, you know you can't rez anyone until the altar. So going through in Captain Save-a-newb mode is basically suicide.

I will definitely concede that their may have been other first timers based on part 2. Sadly, I think it was just a bad group overall that couldn't handle divide and conquer. I have seen other shroud groups where people just cannot understand "stop hitting them".

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I think part 4 illustrates the first timer thing more than anything else. If you've run shroud, especially as a divine, you know you can't rez anyone until the altar. So going through in Captain Save-a-newb mode is basically suicide.

Not neccessarly. For example, if I play my FS I just jump straight through into part 4 and start clearing mobs. Of course I don't have any problems with that, and maybe one of the clerics usually doens't either. Mayhap they saw one of their group mates dying a lot, and though "hey, maybe I should go through and save him", or maybe "Oh ,they started already?".
They failed misserably either way, but dying in part 4 doesn't neccessarly mean they're a first timer. Just undergeared and perhaps a bit overconfident.

[Phidius]

... Mayhap they saw one of their group mates dying a lot, and though "hey, maybe I should go through and save him", or maybe "Oh ,they started already?".
They failed misserably either way, but dying in part 4 doesn't neccessarly mean they're a first timer. Just undergeared and perhaps a bit overconfident.

+1 for using the word "mayhap"

At least, I would if I didn't have to spread it around first.

[slothinator]

I've never been to Shroud, but I've grouped hundreds of times in other MMOs. If no one acknowledged it was their first time, but it was painfully clear that there was at least one person who had never been there before, why didn't the leader just stop and explain? He didn't need to know who he was explaining it to exactly, did he? Why insist on letting a wipe happen just because the newbies didn't speak up?

I'm not advocating being silent about being new. I agree with encouraging people to speak up. But, if it was so obvious that at least one person had never been there before, I think the blame for the wipe is also shared by the leader for not explaining.

I'll concede this point. I don't know the leader, or at least I didn't recognize him from other runs, so I can't speak to his mindset. Now, people were saying things like "take'em down to 5%", "separate them", and the other typical stuff in part 2. However, no one slowed it down and explicitly explained things; I'm guessing they didn't think it was necessary. It is possible that the 3 people in our scenario did not speak or understand English. In part 3, it was said several times over voice - if you don't know your puzzle, say something or stand by the door. We didn't have any real problems in part 3.

As for part 4, I don't know that it would have mattered. We were still buffing and getting back SP when we noticed someone had gone through the portal. I have no idea when they went through. Even not understaning the mechanics of part 4 or it being your first time, why would you jump through the portal without the group? Plus, all three toons did the same thing. It was like portal lemmings.

So, yeah, things were not explained in exacting detail like you would expect with newer players, because I guess we were assuming they were not first timers. You can see where assumption got us.

[Spoonwelder]

That could be true but if the two following dinged they either didn't know you can't Res in Pt4 OR they forgot being OCD based healer/savers.

My guild runs still get the explanation (from our anal retentive raid leaders)....since there could always be a newby unbeknownst to them or the occasional pug pickup to fill the group.

It never hurts to give the spiel and really just helps overall. If 11 other people tell you to shut up then you can stop talking but until then I'd assume one person doesn't know the ropes.

The worst groups are where the leader doesn't have voice - almost always a path to Failsville, Idaho.

[learst]

Just a suggestion - if you suspect that there are new folks in the group and no one is forthcoming, just GO ahead and explain anyway.

Seen it done a few times, particularly in Hound raids. Some groups I'm in, even if it was not apparent there were newbies or no one spoke up that they were new, the leader goes through a quick summary of the strategy anyway.

I have NEVER been in a Shroud where a first timer spoke up and was mocked/harassed for not knowing the quest. EVERY time the leader patiently explains what happens and what to do if things go badly ("part 2 - if you aggro the middle stay there and die").

Well it depends. Not usually in Shroud, but I have been in other quests where this happened. So I can relate to the mindset of some newbies.

There was this incident once though. The most suprising one was where a Shroud group I joined on lvl 20 spellsinger bard. I was one of the first few. A cleric joined and a fighter, both said said they were a newbie. Promptly kicked both of them, the leader said he wanted a quick run and added that to the LFM. 5 minutes later, 2-3 folks joined. And still no healer in sight. Then the leader noticed I was a bard, asked what kind I am. The moment I finished typing spellsinger, I was promptly booted.

[slothinator]

Just a suggestion - if you suspect that there are new folks in the group and no one is forthcoming, just GO ahead and explain anyway.

Seen it done a few times, particularly in Hound raids. Some groups I'm in, even if it was not apparent there were newbies or no one spoke up that they were new, the leader goes through a quick summary of the strategy anyway.

I am well on my way to adopting this as my permanent strategy. Sure I'll annoy a few people who know it, but it beats the alternative.

[CanuckWench]

I am well on my way to adopting this as my permanent strategy. Sure I'll annoy a few people who know it, but it beats the alternative.

As someone who runs shroud often I really do prefer to hear the leader do a quick explaination than just have people running into the next part. I never assume everyone knows what they are doing even in a guild raid .... sometimes people forget which raid they are in ... yes i've seen/heard it happen. If as a leader you don't have voice don't be afraid to ask another vet to explain it.


Now for my little Shroud rant that i will add to this thread .... Stop killing the crystals in part 3 ... just cause that's what you usually do doesn't mean that's what the group you are in is doing .... 2 run yesterday lost out on the water chests in part 3 cause someone did that. *gets off the soapbox*

[qwert_yuiop]

Now for my little Shroud rant that i will add to this thread .... Stop killing the crystals in part 3 ... just cause that's what you usually do doesn't mean that's what the group you are in is doing .... 2 run yesterday lost out on the water chests in part 3 cause someone did that. *gets off the soapbox*

This.... Just because you have been playing ddo for 5 yrs does not mean others have been. And its never the new players who do it but the "vets". Last time i was in a fast shroud but up by some "elite guild" the leader kicked the guy who dced as he entered 1st part (yeah like it nver happens) and ****ed off the cleric into recalling out for not beating on the portals for 1 point of dmage per swing on top of his dots. Yeah... that hardly becomes fast if you are 2 follks short. So i guess bottom line is learn to listen and try not to be a prick. /rant off

[R0cksteady]

This.... Just because you have been playing ddo for 5 yrs does not mean others have been. And its never the new players who do it but the "vets". Last time i was in a fast shroud but up by some "elite guild" the leader kicked the guy who dced as he entered 1st part (yeah like it nver happens) and ****ed off the cleric into recalling out for not beating on the portals for 1 point of dmage per swing on top of his dots. Yeah... that hardly becomes fast if you are 2 follks short. So i guess bottom line is learn to listen and try not to be a prick. /rant off

Definitely this.

The only reason I run shroud is for shards/great shard/supreme shards. Every time someone shatters a crystal and I lose a chance at a great shard, I wince.

It's not cool to just break a crystal because you're impatient. Ask someone to do your puzzle if you don't know it.