Which is King of the U11 TWF'ers?

[elg582]

Fixed that for you

Forgot to mention..

and break dr on everything which an ESOS is hard pressed to do. Which is NOT taken into effect in that nifty calculator

Well, I tend to be conservative, like setting touch of death's DPS at 60, when it probably does that on epics with low-WIS builds

The calculator is missing quite a few things, but like all models, it is a useful tool for comparison, which was my problem with the above complaint about it not being accurate. Of course it's not accurate! The only way to accurately judge these build would be to build them, gear them out, then go through all the raids 10 times or so with FRAPS on and then go back and work out the numbers, and I'm certainly not going to go through that much trouble.

Anyone who has been in raids with decently-geared and well-played STR ninjas know that they have "high" DPS; not max, but enough that threat mitigation is a necessity rather than a luxury unless you plan on tanking.

There is even a justification for monks getting equal DPS and extra abilities; they are not a free class.

[lopter]

ok did some very basic ki calculations for a 12ftr/6mnk/2rog build

3.2 ki per attack (extra 3 on crit) fire stance + oremis + base 1

95 ftr boost+haste atks per 40 sec (not inc madstone)
36 haste atks 20 sec

131 atks per min

419.2 potential ki

----------------------------
Rotation light* mnk

6.84 dam earth ki 5
13.68 dam earth ki 6
6.3 dam elec ki 5
12.6 dam elec ki 6
6.3 dam water/fire ki 5

3 second rotation 27 ki

46 seconds out of 60 you can use strikes (14 second lead time)
avg dam per 3 seconds 45.72
avg dps (15 * 45.72) + 0 /60 = 11.43 dps increase

------------------------


pure mnk
111 atks hasted per min

higher mnk 5 atk cycle would probably consist of some of the following

4 dam earth ki 5
8 dam earth ki 6
12 +2d6crit dam earth ki 7
6 dam elec ki 6
2d10 dam elec ki 7


FoD
deal 2d10 additional damage to living creatures plus another 1d50 damage on a vorpal strike
ki 10

ToD
dealing 500 additional negative energy damage ki 50


sustainability of ki becomes an issue with ToD 50 ki is a lot of your pool in one go i dont have a dark monk so i dont feel comfortable working those numbers

[Taimasan]

Maybe this should be on another page but I saw a couple people mention this earlier here.

Ive often considered a 19rogue assassin/1monk (or poss 18Ro,As/2monk) using wraps, does anyone know of a tried and true build they could link?

It seems like it should put out some serious dps (and higher across the board then average rogue as fortification isnt as much of an issue) and with stunning fist going off all your levels iirc then should even be helpful with Epic CC.

When I was first starting out I had the idea that a 2 monk 18 fighter unarmed kensai would be suhweet. Reason being if you had 1 level of monk your fists would only be 1d6(Korthos Isle strength =/). So if you want to go unarmed multiclass I would suggest more levels in monk, or consider going pure, monks get a bunch of perks as they level. I will post unarmed damage chart below.

1d6 - Monk level 1
1d8 - Monk level 4
1d10 - Monk level 8
2d6 - Monk level 12
2d8 - Monk level 16
2d10 - Monk level 20

Source:http://ddowiki.com/page/Unarmed_Strike

[Balkas]

Maybe this should be on another page but I saw a couple people mention this earlier here.

Ive often considered a 19rogue assassin/1monk (or poss 18Ro,As/2monk) using wraps, does anyone know of a tried and true build they could link?

It seems like it should put out some serious dps (and higher across the board then average rogue as fortification isnt as much of an issue) and with stunning fist going off all your levels iirc then should even be helpful with Epic CC.

I believe that unarmed assassins are currently *not* getting Vorpals with their fists unfortunately. Whether this is WAI or not has not yet been confirmed.

SA damage *is* boosted by 50% against stunned enemies, but Turbine said that it's not supposed to.

[~sumptingwong]

Strength biased rogues like always...

[elg582]

ok did some very basic ki calculations for a 12ftr/6mnk/2rog build

3.2 ki per attack (extra 3 on crit) fire stance + oremis + base 1

95 ftr boost+haste atks per 40 sec (not inc madstone)
36 haste atks 20 sec

131 atks per min

419.2 potential ki

----------------------------
Rotation light* mnk

4 dam earth ki 5
8 dam earth ki 6
1d6 dam elec ki 5
2d6 dam elec ki 6
1d6 dam water/fire ki 5

3 second rotation 27 ki

46 seconds out of 60 you can use strikes (14 second lead time)
avg dam per 3 seconds 24
avg dps (15 * 24) + 0 /60 = 6 dps increase

------------------------


pure mnk
111 atks hasted per min

higher mnk 5 atk cycle would probably consist of some of the following

4 dam earth ki 5
8 dam earth ki 6
12 +2d6crit dam earth ki 7
6 dam elec ki 6
2d10 dam elec ki 7


FoD
deal 2d10 additional damage to living creatures plus another 1d50 damage on a vorpal strike
ki 10

ToD
dealing 500 additional negative energy damage ki 50


sustainability of ki becomes an issue with ToD 50 ki is a lot of your pool in one go i dont have a dark monk so i dont feel comfortable working those numbers

ToD by itself, assuming no other strikes (easy enough to manage) = [500 + (0.8)*500]*4/60 = 60 DPS

And that's ignoring triple/quad hits, crits, and using dark finisher curse.

The other ki strikes probably don't add more than 5-10 DPS, so obviously ToD is the way to go, and fire stance is pretty useless for DPS.

[elg582]

When I was first starting out I had the idea that a 2 monk 18 fighter unarmed kensai would be suhweet. Reason being if you had 1 level of monk your fists would only be 1d6(Korthos Isle strength =/). So if you want to go unarmed multiclass I would suggest more levels in monk, or consider going pure, monks get a bunch of perks as they level. I will post unarmed damage chart below.

1d6 - Monk level 1
1d8 - Monk level 4
1d10 - Monk level 8
2d6 - Monk level 12
2d8 - Monk level 16
2d10 - Monk level 20

Source:http://ddowiki.com/page/Unarmed_Strike

To be fair, kensei 1 makes up the damage difference fairly well; kensei 2 gives power surge which is better for its duration; kensei 3 is a waste on unarmed.

12/8 is the split, either way.

[lopter]

ToD by itself, assuming no other strikes (easy enough to manage) = [500 + (0.8)*500]*4/60 = 60 DPS

And that's ignoring triple/quad hits, crits, and using dark finisher curse.

The other ki strikes probably don't add more than 5-10 DPS, so obviously ToD is the way to go, and fire stance is pretty useless for DPS.

I agree but you'd still be looking at another 100 to 200 ki to spend in fire stance

Using earth 2 earth 3 would up your dps considerably also great point on offhand proc I need to rework dps

As far as tod
Not sure how much we are ignoring save amts on bosses assuming a 12mnk build

Reason I went fire over wind was strictly as a top end ki generati6on scenario not for best dps outside of that

Dam per ki is next to figure out

[lopter]

Damage per ki averages

(dice average = 20 \ (3/6/10/20 * 19) (do strikes crit?)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)
all decimal places truncated

Elemental

(dice average = 20 \ (3.5/7/11/21 * 19) (do strikes crit?)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)

1.197 dpk = I : Your attack will deal 5.985 additional Elemental damage. (Ki cost: 5)
2.394 dpk = II : Your attack will deal 11.97 additional Elemental damage. (Ki cost: 5)
3.762 dpk = III : Your attack will deal 18.81 additional Elemental damage. (Ki cost: 5)
7.182 dpk = IV : Your attack will deal 35.91 additional Elemental damage. (Ki cost: 5)

Earth
I/II (dice average = 20 \ (4/8 * 19)
III (dice average = 20 \ ((12 * 19)+ (7*2)
IV (dice average = 20 \ ((16 * 19) +(11 *2)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)

1.368 dpk = I : Your attack deals 6.84 additional damage. (Ki cost: 5)
2.736 dpk = II : Your attack deals 13.68 additional damage. (Ki cost: 5)
4.356 dpk = III : Your attack deals 21.78 additional damage (Ki cost: 5)
5.868 dpk = IV : Your attack deals 29.34 additional damage (Ki cost: 5)

Void

(dice average = 20 \ (2.5/5/10/20 * 19) (do strikes crit?)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)

0.5 dpk = I : Your attack deals 2.5 additional Force damage. (Ki cost: 5)
1 dpk = II : Your attack deals 5 additional Force damage. (Ki cost: 5)
2 dpk = III : Your attack deals 10 additional Force damage.(Ki cost: 5)
4 dpk = IV : Your attack deals 20 additional Force damage. (Ki cost: 5)

Special
Fists of Darkness
(dice average = 20 \ ((11 * 19)+50)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)

2.331 dpk = Your attack deals 23.31 additional damage. (Ki cost: 10)

Touch of Death

(dice average = 20 \ (500 * 19)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)

17.1 dpk = Your attack deals 855 additional damage. (Ki cost: 50)


So an ideal cycle would be

ToD > ((Elemental IV > Void IV >Earth IV > Earth III > Elemental III) Cycle 5 times then ToD again )

[elg582]

1. Yes, we are ignoring saves against ToD, as well as criticals and triple/quad hits.

2. With Oremi's necklace, I find myself with plenty of ki even in earth stance.

3. It's not just available ki; you have cooldowns and you can't just fire them off as fast as you can hit the keys, it goes on the next strike. I find that I can usually get about 12 strikes in between ToD's.

[lopter]

1. Yes, we are ignoring saves against ToD, as well as criticals and triple/quad hits.

2. With Oremi's necklace, I find myself with plenty of ki even in earth stance.

3. It's not just available ki; you have cooldowns and you can't just fire them off as fast as you can hit the keys, it goes on the next strike. I find that I can usually get about 12 strikes in between ToD's.

yes 12 strikes is about right

i need to redo the math (sigh) my comp refreshed as i just finished writing out a hrs worth of work lol but it looks like 60+ dps added for strikes as a 12 mnk

[lopter]

12 mnk 8 ftr

cycle

Tod (earth 3 > Fists of darkness > elemental 3 )

3.111 dpk = Your attack deals 21.78 additional damage (Ki cost: 7)
2.687 dpk = Your attack will deal 18.81 additional Elemental damage. (Ki cost: 7)
2.331 dpk = Your attack deals 23.31 additional damage. (Ki cost: 10)

3.2 ki per attack (extra 3 on crit) fire stance + oremis + base 1

141.5 atks per min (Vanshilar's Attack Speed Index)

452.8 potential ki

----------------------------
ToD

Your attack deals 855 additional damage. (Ki cost: 50)
(855 * 4) / 60 = 57 dps increase

200 ki cost
----------------------------

Rotation

21.78 dam earth ki 7
18.81 dam Elec ki 7
23.31 dam FoD ki 10


3 second rotation (including 1.2 sec downtime) 24 ki

total Ki 452.8
ToD Ki 200
_____________
Strike Ki 252.8


30 seconds out of 60 you can use strikes
avg dam per 3 seconds 63.9
avg dps (10 * 63.9) + 0 /60 = 10.65 dps increase


ToD increase 57
Ki Increase 10.65
________________
Total DPS 67.65

this is still incredibly low. you could curse electric in your Auto Attack time adding 10% (no ki cost) you have plenty of building time for ki in this strike sequence (36 seconds out of every min) this doesnt include any double strike chance which would up the dps more.

[elg582]

That looks about right.

[lopter]

its good for a rough baseline i put multiple stop gap ki building points to err on the side of safety

i think its a realistic amount you could see in strikes not a perfect robot strike method

no combos were used as none actually increased dps to be worth even looking at.

so the new question is

whats the mnks base dps in the calc 12 mnk /8 ftr

then add 67.65 + (67.65 x doublestrike%) to it. for a baseline mnk dps

aaand this is where i take a break :P

[Soleran]

Lopter the ki strikes cost 5 ki now regardless of the lvl of the strike for the elemental strikes.

[lopter]

Lopter the ki strikes cost 5 ki now regardless of the lvl of the strike for the elemental strikes.

&@#*^ !



i adjusted the base costs so it reflects but im all numbered out for a sequence and now things get hazier (due to elemental resists)

likely (earth 3 > elemental 3 cold > earth 2 > Elemental 3 elec ) for 20 ki

[Balkas]

The Earth strikes are multiplied by critical hits.

I did some Monk strike damage math here (which doesn't take into account TWF %) if it helps at all.

(Don't forget that 1 is a Critical Miss)

[Cold_Stele]

Who cares? eSOS is awful against >50% Fortification, and every raid boss tested on its highest difficulty in U11 (whether that is Elite or Epic) has 70%+ Fort.

eSOS is relegated, for now, to anti-trash DPS and to runs on the lower difficulties.

If this is accurate then where does that leave THF?

My understanding is that THF is far inferior to TWF unless eSoS is equipped.

[Solmage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuigcXvcy1A

"Don't go ninj'n nobody don't need ninj'n" - epic win on that video.. so that's what splashing is like in RL.. huh.

[eulogy098]

Why do so many people assume you can maintain Haste Boost forever? Even if you had infinite charges (and you dont) its a 20 second boost with 30 seconds of cooldown, so even in a perfect world of infinite charges you can only be boosted at best 2/3 of the time.

More realistically speaking you'll have at best maybe 12 charges, which is only 4 minutes of actual boosted time. Between that and the longer cooldown then duration I think people need to rethink their dps calculations.

If nothing else you should be taking off 33% of your calculated DPS benefit for haste boost, rite off the top.


Haste boost can NOT be 100% maintained due to both limited charges and 30 second cooldown to 20 second duration. Comparing it as though it were a passive 30% dps increase is highly, highly flawed.