Which is King of the U11 TWF'ers?

[maddmatt70]

Melees that can take care of themselves will be a boon in any run.
N

Well you see the Khyber response has never been toward melee that take care of themselves unfortunately but instead to throw more barbarians and clerics at a problem like this. More hit points and more heals.

It is too bad that paladins do poor dps otherwise they might have a good time this mod because their defense as a defender of siberysis is pretty solid with 800+ hp, great saves, self healing and buffing. They sound great but their dps is just so shoddy.

My guess is more ranger discrimination because of their hp issues unless of course there is advantages to being a ranged character in the new raids. Rangers do have more sustained dps then barbarians, but it is almost never that they get the opportunity to show that strength.

My little knowledge of the new raids notwithstanding but ac tanks or super amp builds are really good in Tower Elite currently so that is something to keep in mind. Anyway looking forward to next mod like so many other folks should be fun.

[grodon9999]

I started playing a healer

LOL! I'm hysterically laughing at my desk right now. it's SO true though. I can keep a raid group up in Elite ToD part 1, EVelah, etc . . . with with nothing but MCLW unless there's a robot there. As a Cleric though Empower Heal'd Mass huge does do the job nicely.

[grodon9999]

. . . Rangers do have more sustained dps then barbarians, but it is almost never that they get the opportunity to show that strength . . .

Dude, the fight has to go more than 30 minutes for that to matter. The barb literally needs to run out of rages, i've never been in a fight that long.

[maddmatt70]

Dude, the fight has to go more than 30 minutes for that to matter. The barb literally needs to run out of rages, i've never been in a fight that long.

Well yeah we are due for a 45-60 minute quest without shrines. Would be an interesting challenge.

Edit: this actually did occur the whole barbarian running out of rages back in the days when we were first beating Shroud Elite at level 16 cap. The barbs had to have the longer rage and number of rages maxed enhancements.

[LeLoric]

My guess is more ranger discrimination because of their hp issues unless of course there is advantages to being a ranged character in the new raids. Rangers do have more sustained dps then barbarians, but it is almost never that they get the opportunity to show that strength.

Ranged has some merits in both of the two raids.

[Monkey_Archer]

Depends on the content and assuming we are talking melee dps. There will be two distinct 'categories' of dpsers in my mind judging from llama.

1. Easy stuff. Helf dual bursters will rule the roost in easy stuff. If tod elite and the 2 new epic raids go live as they stand now then those same helf bursters will be weak.
2. Hard Stuff. Its about sustained dps right at the very hardest level from what i can guage. Im sure after all the people who cry because they cant run elite anymore when they should be sticking too normal winge on the forums the devs will tone it down a little. I hope they dont - at this point on llama there is a very nice jump from lower difficulties.

My picks will be in no particular order

1. 18 barb/2 ftr (essentially double boosts is nice for very long fights)
2. 20 barb for (even greater sustained dmg potential than the 18/2 altho less for the duration of HB1)
3. Monks pure or 12monk/8 ftr
4. cerain ranger mixes. (6 splash with eo and constructs is about ideal as that second FE is now very obvious)


Dual helf bursters will make easy content easier but when the going gets tough(namely those 3 raids on highest difficulties) I will take one of the 4 above. Horc. Not warforged. Honestly on a lightly specced for healing fvs I have no problem keeping a raid group of fleshies up but WF and especially wf with no amp are just a pain. Very inefficient. . Curses are non issue jsut need to have half a brain and chug a pot when you get hit.


Regarding FVS DPS.

In the new raids and tod elite you will not have the sp to maintain DP on the live servers. Mana pot consumption will be rough especially in MA even without dping. The AC is somewhat high on the epic raids - if you are 2wf(or non esos 2 handers) you better get some nice too hit gear else ur mediocre damage will be next to nonexistant.

N

Edit: Oh and glass cannon tanks should jsut gtfo of raid groups now. They will be useless next mod with the death penalty count. Build for saves(reflex), hp and sustained dps if you want to compete at the highest levels. I couldnt care less about what calcualtions say. If you arnt fat you arnt fighting at the highest levels next mod. Rangers and rogs dont cry ur evasion will help some.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts as well...

I'm sure smart players of boost based classes will still do well, they just may need a few tweaks. Fighters will definitely want to switch to kensai set over shintao for longer raids. Horcs with extra boosts will be that much more important (which is why I'm still not convinced in the merits of a helf THF fighter) Even with the barb PL nerf I still like the blitz builds (12/7/1 for DB III might actually be a better option now) They are affected less then most builds by increased fort and now have ~10 damage boosts to use when haste boosts runs out. They may want to wear FB instead of ravager now though...

[DragonTroy]

Rogues are their own separate animal, the OP was asking specifically about two different 12/6/2 splits.

And I agree with Nick, the best stuff for LONG fights is going to be Horc barbs. Anything Boost-based is gonna be gasping for air when the boosts run out. But he was asking specifically about TWFers.

the title of the thread does say "Which is King of the U11 TWF'ers?" if he is going for the for great dps boost that is utilizing the new quite nice damage boost, i felt my suggestion trumped the others suggested

although, to be fair, i think the monk would kick mine's rear end in dps vs the abbot

[ainmosni]

Quoting myself, ran the numbers again in AO's calc (standard disclaimers . . .)

It's all too close to matter.

Pure fighter: 625.86 459.55

Blitz: 617.28 469.88

Monster: 628.71 472.19

This is with Lightning II khopeshes, 3 piece abishai (Charged Gauntlets instead of Claw), Ravager & Shintao, Seeker 6. Up the seeker to 12 and change Abishai to claw and the ratios stay about the same.

Whatever flavor of helf you want will be fine, play what you think will be the most fun.

sooooo


we're looking at a difference of about 10 dps lol

[Alex301]

2 rogue is still going to better than 2 monk btw. The rogue sneak attack training enhancements will stack so that's another +3 SA damage.

And while the DPS numbers around 0% fort are similar for fighters/ blitz/ monster, the fighter is going to lose out the most against targets with higher fort. The ability to extend the paladin past life for the monster is another big bonus for it imo too.

[Dark-Star]

Dude, the fight has to go more than 30 minutes for that to matter. The barb literally needs to run out of rages, i've never been in a fight that long.

Every time a barb dies he loses that rage, so fights do not need to last 30+ minutes for a barb to be rageless. And yes, barbs will die a lot on Epic TMA (The Master Artificer raid).

I agree with Nick for the most part, however only as it applies to the two new raids and ToD on elite/epic. For other content, lower HP burst builds will excel.

A build like the Helves Angel (12ftr/6ranger/2monk) will have double base damage from Point Blank Shot within 45 feat, 25% increased damage from the new Damage Boost, and Improved Precise Shot will be great for the new content. The boosts (Haste and Damage) can be either stacked for maximum burst DPS, or stretched out over the duration of the fight, 16+ boosts, depending on what is best. Many Shot is sustained, and ranged damage/ kiting damage will have an avantage in survivability and pillar popping. If self healing turns out to be requisite, the build can take the Cleric Dilettante. For TWF builds, this is my vote for max DPS when you have multiple mobs spread out.

Straight DPS on a single target the nod has to go to a strength-based Assasin 19rogue/1monk using the new alchemical handwraps. If one goes half elf, the boosts again can be stacked or stretched, and that build will have even more boosts to use as Rogue Damage Boost is needed for Assasin, and that boost works on sneak attacks. All of the base sneak attack damage is sustained and, as noted above, they usually have great self healing, especially with the changes to their scroll mastery enhancements.

Having a 6 pali splash in a DPS discussion laughable. Can be a great tanking splash, but not DPS.

[DrNuegebauer]

The boosts (Haste and Damage) can be either stacked for maximum burst DPS, or stretched out over the duration of the fight, 16+ boosts, depending on what is best.

That's what I was looking at with the 18|2 (barb|fighter) or Blizt type builds. They simply can't stack their damage and haste boosts, and so will be forced to have extra boosts over the duration of a quest/raid.

Sure, it might be only a 15% damage boost for the Blizt, but those extra boosts might well be handy!

[Alex301]

The boosts (Haste and Damage) can be either stacked for maximum burst DPS, or stretched out over the duration of the fight, 16+ boosts, depending on what is best.

Wouldn't it always be better to combine the two? With haste boost and damage boost going your going to get more attacks with the 25% extra damage and you should average a higher dps. I guess if you're saving them for many shot it would be better though.

[Dark-Star]

I almost always stack them currently, but there will be times where spreading them out might be better, as you will need sustained DPS. Raids like TMA Epic are an endurance fest.

[Cold_Stele]

Having a 6 pali splash in a DPS discussion laughable. Can be a great tanking splash, but not DPS.

Pally splash come in at 595.48, not sure if that can be described as laughable? Certainly lower than the other options.

Discussing various options for builds is good, and what keeps these forums alive...

*edit* Pally version is 5% below Monster which would appear to be identical to HElves Angel as it doesn't have Tempest I.

[Monkey_Archer]

Wouldn't it always be better to combine the two?

Yes.

Assuming you do 100 dps, damage boost adds 10% and hasteboost adds 20%:

Over the course of 1 minute double stacking would be 132 dps for 30 seconds and 100 dps for 30 seconds. Total 116 dps.
Using boosts separately would only be 110 dps for 30 seconds and 120 dps for 30 seconds. Total 115 dps.

[Cold_Stele]

Yes.

Assuming you do 100 dps, damage boost adds 10% and hasteboost adds 20%:

Over the course of 1 minute double stacking would be 132 dps for 30 seconds and 100 dps for 30 seconds. Total 232 dps.
Using boosts separately would only be 110 dps for 30 seconds and 120 dps for 30 seconds. Total 230 dps.

Hmmm, I'm wondering if single boosting is going to be better for protracted boss fights.

All that burst DPS means you risk pullling aggo and losing your SA damage.

Single boosts might well be best way to maintain your SA and not pull boss aggro from the tank.

Will have to wait until U12 is live I guess.

[grodon9999]

Hmmm, I'm wondering if single boosting is going to be better for protracted boss fights.

All that burst DPS means you'll be pullling aggo, and losing your SA damage during your bursts.

Single boosts might well be best way to maintain your SA and not pull boss aggro from the tank.

Will have to wait until U12 is live I guess.

Your probably better off spreading out the boosts so you don't pull aggro in a quest like Elite ToD, well built defenders will be able to hold aggro but they will run out of boosts much sooner than kensais. What i'm thinking for Sulu on Elite tower is give the defender tank a full minute headstart and tell him not to use boosts until he's half-dead, DPSers spread them out and spam bluff (which gives you a small threat decrease even if it fails). It's a marathon now and not a sprint.

[grodon9999]

Pally splash come in at 595.48, not sure if that can be described as laughable? Certainly lower than the other options.

Discussing various options for builds is good, and what keeps these forums alive...

*edit* Pally version is 5% below Monster which would appear to be identical to HElves Angel as it doesn't have Tempest I.

"Laughable" is too strong of a word, but it's not an ideal split. It is excellent for tanking as dark-star said but if you're looking for a DPS build for U11 Pally ain't it.

Regarding the Helves Angel a smart player who knows when to put down the bow and when to hose down a room with manyshot will do more damage than any those. This does require a little more smartz than just standing on a boss and using auto-attack though.

[Cold_Stele]

Yeh, I was keen to look at other options now that Tempest I has lost it's lustre somewhat. From the numbers you came up with though it's still up ahead even without the alacrity boost...

It's interesting though that we've got so much power creep now that we're dismissing a build that comes in at just under 600 in the DPS stakes.

[grodon9999]

Yeh, I was keen to look at other options now that Tempest I has lost it's lustre somewhat. From the numbers you came up with though it's still up ahead even without the alacrity boost...

. . . against favored enemies (EOs and probably Constructs). Against non-FEs it is behind pure and Blitz but not that far. The Blitz and Pure will have better tactics and better to-hit so it's all very close, pick whichever would be the most fun for you.

It's interesting though that we've got so much power creep now that we're dismissing a build that comes in at just under 600 in the DPS stakes.

My 500ish DPS toons pull aggro over most of the fighters and barbs I encounter outside of the ubber-guilds. So few have all the equipment needed to get to these benchmarks.