New difficulty idea, courtesy of Memnir!

[Chai]

I wasn't being sarcastic... at least not overly.
I mentioned it because I also think it'd be kinda fun - but I doubt we'd ever get em to turn off DA for any reason.

Not every quest in the game would be suitable for this kind of idea though. Coal Chamber would be nightmarish, for example.

That is actually how we used to run coal chamber before DA was put into the game. There was never any reason to pay attention to most of the mobs in there other than the ones that needed to be killed to get keys, as well as the ambush which is a requirement, etc.

[smatt]

I think the devs might be hesitant to do this simply because they'd rather you not run through the dungeons they spent months designing, and then actually reward you for it.

It would be like the finest restaurant in town offering a discount for how quickly you finished your plate. The owners might love turning their tables over quickly, but the chef who put the work into it might scoff at you throwing the meal down in 30 seconds.

No it's more like prisoners in a prison..... The players (Prisoners) have unlimited hours to sit and plot on how to beat the system, while the Devs (Guards) have very little time and limited resources building and maintaining them.

[Thrudh]

Okay, you can't have it both ways - saying my experiences are subjective and personal but yours are not. Which is it?

I'm saying there were constant posts and constant complaining about lag in the past, even signature memes all about lag...

That is not MY experience, that was a global experience...

When was the last time you saw a 400 post thread about LAG? You saying nothing has changed, lag-wise, in the last few years is false.

[Memnir]

I think the devs might be hesitant to do this simply because they'd rather you not run through the dungeons they spent months designing, and then actually reward you for it.

Agreed.
That's why I think that this kind of quest-variation would work best if they hand-crafted it for the express purposes of speed runs, instead of trying to wedge it into an all encompassing check-box option.

[mournbladereigns]

we already have this mode, its called xp/min.

[smatt]

I can see how it would help with server lag but...... also

Its easy to see another reason why they did it. All you need for proof is go on youtube and look at the "soloing" videos pre-DA (I watched a coal chamber pre-DA not long ago -.- was just rediculous ). The game looks completely pointless back then. All running, invisible, no fighting, give me my loot when we get to the end. I ZERG but I still get to kill ALOT of stuff while doing it, pile em' up, then chop em' up (or blow em' up )

*Hint.. Invis still works VERY well against MOST mobs in the game Unless of course you have Mr.clunk clunk in heavy armor, comaand items or a buggy FvS aura lurking about. I myself zerg invis often, as do MANY others... There's still penty fo zerging going on... BB is your zerg friends even if it doesn't last 1 1/2 minutes now.

[Chai]

This would just cause huge lag. You think they implemented DA for fun?

They'd have to create a new server for this, and then you guys can all go over there and complain about lag to each other.

Please. We used to play MMOs in 1999 with far less server lag than nowdays, hosted on hardware that looks like a couple of tin cans with some yarn between them compared to what we have available currently technology-wise, with a much larger population per server, and pull hundreds of mobs in huge trains to specific areas with tons of casters stationed at the kill zone waiting to wipe em all out.

This whole 'active mobs causes lag" thing is cute, as is the enforced flower sniffing that comes with it. In many MMOs, all mobs are active. They dont stand and wait for you to run up to their spawn point. They move around the entire zone area.

We still complain about lag because theres still lag, after the attempted "fixes" that supposedly dealt with lag.

All they are doing with DA is giving us an alert light for when to drag the mobs back to the kill zone. We still zerg plow all these quests like we did before. Red alert = firewall or blade barrier. The uncaping of wail in epics helped us there as well.

I also dont think I have ever seen any other game use an arbitrary mechanic like DA to try to address lag, likely due to the fact that they dont host their games on Vic-20s.

[Cyr]

What other reason would they want DA in the game? You're drifting dangerously into conspiracy-theory territory here.

Oh let's see of the top of my head...

• A passing fancy of a dev
• DA came in with EU, EU was a huge marketing push towards new players whom had alot less potential at the time to zerg and whom zerging groups could make them feel inferior and upset...This could have been sold internally very easily in the same manner that casual mode and dungeon scaling were as a new player friendly mechanic change.
• A particular dev got mad that players were running certain content that they had a particular attachement to in a manner they did not think was the right way of doing it and decided to change the rules because of it. This would not be even close to the first time this happened in game after all.
• The developers had no idea how to really fix lag and were making efforts to appease the many who were upset about it's increasing prevelance in game (note that the developers never did discover the major culrpit in the annoying case of 'dps' lag. Instead a player discovered this and players pushed for a change to the bandwidth cap resulting in much improved performance in this regard. A developer much to their credit did sit up and take notice though when this was being bandied about the forums which made a final fix possible.) and were basically just waving their hands around and making miniscule performance improvements.
• A certain core of players and developers developed an extremem dislike for a certain portion of the player base and frankly did everything in their power to make their gaming experience less enjoyable.

[Memnir]

That is actually how we used to run coal chamber before DA was put into the game. There was never any reason to pay attention to most of the mobs in there other than the ones that needed to be killed to get keys, as well as the ambush which is a requirement, etc.

Yeah, I know.
I was meaning more trying this kind of speed objective with DA in place.

That would just be icky.

[jandhaer]

stop me if i am wrong but...
if you complete the quest in half the time a "standard player" need , and redo it , its basically twice the xp....and not a bonus % on quest xp , but rather a quest xp mutiplier x2 in fact.

The idea is maybe nice at first thought , but when thinking carefully about it , its rather unbalanced since fast TRed players do twice as much xp in the same time if not more than a casual.

The problem is we do this because we feel like we have to do things twice as fast, as we literally NEED twice as much XP and dont want to take weeks and months getting back to 20 (just to often do it again). And as the crowd getting the most benefit from this reward would most likely be the "Multiple TR" crowd ( the ZERGERS RAWR ) it could really be a step in the right direction of fixing what many feel is a broken TR game mechanic (where only XP needed is increased, not skill or difficulty in anyway)

[jandhaer]

*Hint.. Invis still works VERY well against MOST mobs in the game Unless of course you have Mr.clunk clunk in heavy armor, comaand items or a buggy FvS aura lurking about. I myself zerg invis often, as do MANY others... There's still penty fo zerging going on... BB is your zerg friends even if it doesn't last 1 1/2 minutes now.

**Hint** check my guild and toons, I know all about zerging, but still just watch some of the old videos and there is still a remarkable difference in mob interaction now.

[smatt]

[quote=Cyr;4047879]Oh let's see of the top of my head...

• A passing fancy of a dev [quote] Plausible
• DA came in with EU, EU was a huge marketing push towards new players whom had alot less potential at the time to zerg and whom zerging groups could make them feel inferior and upset...This could have been sold internally very easily in the same manner that casual mode and dungeon scaling were as a new player friendly mechanic change.

[smatt]

**Hint** check my guild and toons, I know all about zerging, but still just watch some of the old videos and there is still a remarkable difference in mob interaction now.

LOL, missed that... But just because you call it something doesn't mean it is But sure... The old days were of much more the zertastic kind... The faster you zerg these days the more has to be put into it...... In the old days even the dumbest of dumb could zerg anything...

[jandhaer]

LOL, missed that... But just because you call it something doesn't mean it is But sure... The old days were of much more the zertastic kind... The faster you zerg these days the more has to be put into it...... In the old days even the dumbest of dumb could zerg anything...

Exactly

Again could be a fun idea just keep the DA

[Ungood]

Okay, you can't have it both ways - saying my experiences are subjective and personal but yours are not. Which is it?

I would say since you both seem to disagree, that there is a mid point between the two, where some noticed a decreasing in lag and others noticed nothing. At the very least, no one noticed a increase in lag which was the goal.

The point is that they put DA it to stop players from zerging, because long story short, is not good for the game or their system. This is their story and they are sticking to it. Since it is their game. I am sure they are the best judge of what is affecting their system.

I suggest however just the opposite of giving bonus for going faster and that players should get increased rewards for Ransack, Conquest, Ingenious Debilitation, and Vigilant Sight, and that completing all the optional should offer a total added to the dungeon. IE: an additional 20% to the final exp awarded if all optional were done before completing the quest.

And that they should put in a decrease in EXP for the percent of mob that noticed the group but were not killed, IE: the opposite of insidious cunning which should award the players for not being noticed not so much, not killing anything. Put another way, Any mob that agroed the group and was left standing should count against the group as far as "completing" the quest goes.

As it stands, with the inclusion of the Bravery Bonus coming U11, it seems they are trying to move the game to the point of decreasing repetition and stopping Zerg speed runs, not rewarding it.

imho.

[Thrudh]

Please. We used to play MMOs in 1999 with far less server lag than nowdays, hosted on hardware that looks like a couple of tin cans with some yarn between them compared to what we have available currently technology-wise, with a much larger population per server, and pull hundreds of mobs in huge trains to specific areas with tons of casters stationed at the kill zone waiting to wipe em all out.

Did those mobs use path-detection to avoid each other's space? I seem to remember trains of mobs in Everquest overlapped each other... It looked pretty stupid... and more importantly...

The reason combat is so good in this game is because of the real-time physics detection...

Using choke points, keeping one mob between you and the others, etc. all that is possible because the monsters can't just run through each other.

Those old games, the monsters didn't care if there were 40 other monsters in the room. In DDO, they do... We have the best combat in any MMO, but there's an AI price for that.

[Orratti]

Doesn't sound very difficult.

How about an option to turn off dungeon scaling.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

stop me if i am wrong but...
if you complete the quest in half the time a "standard player" need , and redo it , its basically twice the xp....and not a bonus % on quest xp , but rather a quest xp mutiplier x2 in fact.
The idea is maybe nice at first thought , but when thinking carefully about it , its rather unbalanced since fast TRed players do twice as much xp in the same time if not more than a casual.
BUT !
that is for standard quests.
For timed ones , i agree ,a little time bonus , going up to 10% could be cool.
Nothin game breaking , just something to reward skill of the player.
In the same vein , we could imagine a "perfect bonus" for the guys that get all : conquest , ransack , etc...and no death/no re-entry
To reward patience , a small bonus too , like 10%

You are not counting the time standing around waiting for a healer.

[sephiroth1084]

For fun, no. But, I do think they used lag as an excuse to put DA in - because I've not noticed any measurable lessening to lag since DA went in. I'd wager that if they turned DA off for a week and let the zergers go nuts, nobody would notice a difference either.


The Devs wanted DA in the game, and lag was just a convenient mule for them to hitch the wagon on.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Yes, DA may have addressed lag in some manner, but the other factors seem far weightier.

Why not make the Time Attack's really hardcore, and include the Rainbow from Shroud Part 3 in the quest.

If you can't keep up at a minimum pace, you die to the steadily advancing Rainbow.

I like this idea! Design a couple of quests with the prismatic wall from Shroud 3 chasing the party through the quest, or something like Nemesis from the earlier Resident Evil games: an unkillable monster that can easily kill a player (or players) in short order, chasing the group.

(2) Lag is MUCH less than the days before DA went in (and a dozen other lag-related changes like the TWF changes). There used to be CONSTANT lag posts on here... Tons of people had "cute" little signatures saying FIX LAG in ASCII.. Those are all gone.

And there's the problem: there were a lot of changes enacted all at once to counter lag, so it's difficult to tel which had what effect. New servers, changes to TWF, removal of a lot of attack speed bonuses, an overall slowing down of combat, removal of glancing blows on moving attacks, new tech for how the game handles certain processes...all in addition to DA.

Cyr lays it out fairly well:

Oh let's see of the top of my head...

• A passing fancy of a dev
• DA came in with EU, EU was a huge marketing push towards new players whom had alot less potential at the time to zerg and whom zerging groups could make them feel inferior and upset...This could have been sold internally very easily in the same manner that casual mode and dungeon scaling were as a new player friendly mechanic change.
• A particular dev got mad that players were running certain content that they had a particular attachement to in a manner they did not think was the right way of doing it and decided to change the rules because of it. This would not be even close to the first time this happened in game after all.
• The developers had no idea how to really fix lag and were making efforts to appease the many who were upset about it's increasing prevelance in game (note that the developers never did discover the major culrpit in the annoying case of 'dps' lag. Instead a player discovered this and players pushed for a change to the bandwidth cap resulting in much improved performance in this regard. A developer much to their credit did sit up and take notice though when this was being bandied about the forums which made a final fix possible.) and were basically just waving their hands around and making miniscule performance improvements.
• A certain core of players and developers developed an extremem dislike for a certain portion of the player base and frankly did everything in their power to make their gaming experience less enjoyable.

Although I think that the root was a combination of his second point (EU) and a frustration the devs felt at seeing a lot of content that they had intended to be challenging blitzed through, where enemies were hardly any more obstacle than a pillar or box. DA is a sort of patch to incredibly limited monster AI and design.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Running past every monster, in every dungeon, every time you do a quest....is not fun.

Joining a group, and having everyone (or even just one guy) run straight to the end, as fast as possible, bypassing every monster....every time, in every party, every day........
is not fun.

Having lag because a hundred other people are running through their dungeons...agroing every monster along the way, is not fun.

Occasionally making a race of it, is occasionally fun.
A zerge slaughter fest can be fun....as long as it does not become a standard way of doing every dungeon, every time, in every party, every day.

(actually...it "has" become the standard. In fact, people do not seem to "ever" want to do quests at any other speed. And the gods forbid they have to actually struggle to complete a quest!)