Newb time-artificer speculation

[Quetzacoala]

I was looking at the release notes on ddowiki, and it seemed to me that artificer is primarily a crossbow using class. That is why I started to wonder; is a 13 rogue/7 artificer a viable build?

The 13 rogue would give improved evasion as well as 7d6 sneak attack damage, and would allow me to take Master Mechanic I and II.

The 7 artificer would give me some spells, the ability to use rune arms, and would allow me to take Battle Engineer I.

In affect, I would have 7d6 sneak attack damage, the ability to add my intelligence modifer to crossbow damage, and the ability to shoot my crossbow really fast every once in a while-but at the cost of capstone and drastically reduced spell casting abilities.

Having never played artificer yet-could this work?

[Brennie]

Right now: I'd say no.

Artificers get a spell which adds their int modifier to either 1handed or crossbow damage. Currently, this does not stack with mechanic 1. However, Dev statements imply that they 'Should' (though whether they decide at the last minute that it would actually be a bad idea is still up in the air).

Artificers are also a class that gains a lot of benefits from more artificer levels - Spells, spell points, bonus caster levels on UMDable equipment, and a pretty awesome capstone (I know, some people think its not all that great - but having any wandable/clickable buff last for 25 caster levels, as well as being able to wand out cone of cold with +75% damage and pretty good DCs...? yes please!)

Honestly, though, splashing rogue and Arti together can work well. With insightful reflexes and max int, rogue evasion becomes great! Skills are easily compatible, and sneak attack never hurts! At this point, it comes down to personal preference. I, personally, would rather kite enemies through my bladebarriers, and have the best Heal scrolls in the game. You may prefer packing 7d6 sneak attack damage and evading enemy fireballs. To each their own

[chance2000]

I made a dwarf melee Artificer he is pretty good. The deadly weapon spell is nice. A front line dps not likely. He does not seem to suffer from arcane spell failure. So you do not have to go ranged if you do not want to. They suggest you take an exotic weapon, so I made him a dwarf.
Here is his weapon.

[Calebro]

That depends on how you look at it.
If you were comparing it to a pure Arty, then no, it isn't worth it.
If you were comparing it to a pure Mech, then yes, it's probably worth it.
The Insightful Damage spell, as Brennie pointed out, is not currently stacking with Mech1's ability to do the same. If it gets changed to do so, then it's most definitely worth it for a Mech. If it doesn't get changed to stack, then you're left with less sneak attack, but more base damage via Arty x-bow enhancements.
Either way you'd have more versatility via a few Infusions and a few Arty abilities.

I built a halfling 13/7 Mech/Battle Engineer to see how it looked on paper, and it looked pretty good. It would be simply great if Insightful Damage began stacking as they originally said it would.

edit: Here, found the link.
edit2: Looking over that build, it seems I somehow mistakenly took Acrobatic at 18 rather than IC: Ranged. Not sure how that happened, but you get the idea.

[Shade]

Right now: I'd say no.

Artificers get a spell which adds their int modifier to either 1handed or crossbow damage. Currently, this does not stack with mechanic 1. However, Dev statements imply that they 'Should' (though whether they decide at the last minute that it would actually be a bad idea is still up in the air).

And Eladrins follow up post said he realised that was a really dumb idea and he now agree's with the way the programmer set it up.

Double stacking an ability mod to +200% on a ranged weapon that otherwise gets 0% ability mod is never going to happen.

That said, this is still a viable build, and a potent one.

What everyone semes to ignore, is that while yes you can't get something crazy overpowered like +200% int dmg. You can still 'stack' the two clases like Eladrin said.

You can use Insightful strike (int to attack mod), and mechanic for int to dmg.. Thus needing to only pump 1 stat to get very good damage and to hit mods.. Certainly far superior damage to any other crossbow builds I can hit of.

And lets you pump up other important stats like con to survive long enough after you've dealt your high ranged sneak attack dps and pulled agro.

Vs a pure arti builld:
Well you'd get superior imbue dmg, and superior rune arm dmg.. But will that make up for the loss of +int mod to dmg/atck (can only get 1 or the other) or that huge sneak attack dice? I doubt it.

So yes OP, your build idea is indeed very reasonable and will work well.

Im not sure how it well it would compare to say a maxxed out elven bowbarian arcane archers DPS, but it would certainly would be solid, and youd have far more utility. Having very strong trap skills and evasion are actauly ultra useful in the U11 content in general, and especially the new master artificer raid.. I took many pure arti's on it, and they were simply not able to handle getting all the canons on our side, which can really help with DPS on such a long battle.. A tougher builds with improved evasion like yours would be far more succesful at such a task..

Just 100% max int, get tons of con, a few dex to up your reflex save, a few str to carry lotsa bolts and your set. Drow would probably be ideal for the highest Int, tho they are squishy so Human might be a better choice if you wanna survive in tough content and still have very good int.

[Calebro]

And Eladrins follow up post said he realised that was a really dumb idea and he now agree's with the way the programmer set it up.

Link?
I remember Eladrin stating that the original idea was to allow them to stack.
I remember Eladrin stating that he'd be looking into it.
I do not remember him making the statement that you claim. That's the statement I expected him to make, but I never actually saw it.

[Shade]

Link?

You don't need a link, I'm Axer, I just know these things.

[Calebro]

You don't need a link, I'm Axer, I just know these things.

lol
OK then.

[Quetzacoala]

Thank you for the replies, very helpful. I understand that artificers get better spells and abilities as they level up; I just wanted to see if this build has potential, and if the loss of superior spells and abilities could be worth it. Think I will try this when artificers come out, although I will most likely chicken out and just go pure . However, when artificer is released, I will repost the build in more depth.

[jjflanigan]

Link?
I remember Eladrin stating that the original idea was to allow them to stack.
I remember Eladrin stating that he'd be looking into it.
I do not remember him making the statement that you claim. That's the statement I expected him to make, but I never actually saw it.

Eladrin never actually said he agreed with the developer who coded it this way. He also never stated that it was going to stay this way. He said he saw why it wasn't stacking and he sees some reasons for how it was done, this was the last word on it that has been posted to-date that I've seen.

I've just looked into it. Mechanic actually sets the ability modifier for crossbows to Intelligence, which means that it's doing the same thing as Insightful Damage. (This is why they're not stacking.)

I'll have to think about this a little bit, since I see some reasons why it was done the way it was.

[Calebro]

Eladrin never actually said he agreed with the developer who coded it this way. He also never stated that it was going to stay this way. He said he saw why it wasn't stacking and he sees some reasons for how it was done, this was the last word on it that has been posted to-date that I've seen.

Yeah, I saw that one. It doesn't say what Shade says it does, which is why I asked him for a link in case there was more that I hadn't seen.

[Jaid314]

insightful strike + mech I for crossbows won't be very valuable.

you're going to want *19* dex to be an effective repeater build anyways, so it's not like you're going to have a hard time hitting. you'd be better off taking more artificer levels.

i could see taking *two* rogue levels for evasion. don't see any reason to take more (and i'm not sure i'd choose rogue for evasion either).

[EustaceTrevelyan]

I was looking at the release notes on ddowiki, and it seemed to me that artificer is primarily a crossbow using class. That is why I started to wonder; is a 13 rogue/7 artificer a viable build?

The 13 rogue would give improved evasion as well as 7d6 sneak attack damage, and would allow me to take Master Mechanic I and II.

The 7 artificer would give me some spells, the ability to use rune arms, and would allow me to take Battle Engineer I.

In affect, I would have 7d6 sneak attack damage, the ability to add my intelligence modifer to crossbow damage, and the ability to shoot my crossbow really fast every once in a while-but at the cost of capstone and drastically reduced spell casting abilities.

Having never played artificer yet-could this work?

I would respectfully disagree that arties are PRIMARILY a crossbow class. That's where their non-spell damage comes from, and you should definitely try to max xbow dmg; whether this means 17 +2 tome dex for imp precise shot is up to you, but definitely you'll have room for Point blank shot and perhaps rapid reload.

But end game, the major utility is going to come from the awesome buffs you can give a party. DPS wise, you'll be support. I'm not saying you won't contribute, but it's going to be similar to what a bard can do, only ranged, so a bit less.

[Shade]

you're going to want *19* dex to be an effective repeater build anyways, so it's not like you're going to have a hard time hitting. you'd be better off taking more artificer levels.

not gona have a hard time hitting?

Well if you play only casual i guess..

But otherwise, no.

If you do a build thats say 18 dex, 18 int, and lvl ups in int for dmg.. Yea you'r gona have a hard time hitting. The class ONLY ways to increase to hit are +2 PrE and +1 enchant weapon (tho thats at the cost of not getting another enchant).. Very little.

You'd basicaly be running at the equivalent of a sorcerer with a 18 dex at endgame with an extra +2/3 to hit. I know my sorcerer cant hit **** when he rolls a freakin 19 with his crossbow... a few more won't help him much.

So no, you won't be magically getting the +50/60 to hit for free needed to hit tough elite/epic content. Without lvl ups, enhancements and other bonuses into your to hit stat, you suffer.

Yea you don't have to worry about power attack penalties.. But melee otherwise has so many more ways to boost to hit ranged simply can't get that it balances out.

Anyways just add it up if you want.. Builds that don't max there to hit stat suffer in tough content period.

Now you could do lvl ups into dex and not be too far behind (still no dex enhancements or much else).. But then your damage would suffer.

Both on a single stat is far superior. Especially when said stat gets a +3 enhancement bonus.

[Maegin]

You don't need a link, I'm Axer, I just know these things.

And, boom goes the dynamite.

laff.

[Ziindarax]

I made a dwarf melee Artificer he is pretty good. The deadly weapon spell is nice. A front line dps not likely. He does not seem to suffer from arcane spell failure. So you do not have to go ranged if you do not want to. They suggest you take an exotic weapon, so I made him a dwarf.
Here is his weapon.

Battle engineer works with all weapons/exotic-weapons? Hmm, I did not know that.

[Calebro]

not gona have a hard time hitting?

Well if you play only casual i guess..

But otherwise, no.

The build he's contemplating is a 13/7.
If you level up Int, you have a Dex of: 17 base +2 tome +3 rogue +6 item +2 exc = 30
possible +2 racial = possible 32
possble ship buff = possible 34
Not having to worry about PA = equivalent/effective 40-44 Dex compared to a similar melee's attack stat.
That's plenty Dex to hit most mobs while standing stationary as long as you're buffed up. That's plenty to hit many mobs while you're moving and at a -4 if you don't have Shot on the Run. If you do take SotR (why you waste feats on the prereqs, I dunno) you won't have any trouble there either.
He'll have a little trouble with some high AC mobs in epics, but not too much trouble.

[sumnz]

It seems to me that 14 arty 6 rogue would be a better split. You get the mechanic int damage for a minimum level investment. I dunno I am going to try and go pure arty, but if in end game I cant end up doing anything useful without evasion, I may swap some levels to rogue or monk.

[Ryiah]

It seems to me that 14 arty 6 rogue would be a better split.

The 7th rogue level gives another sneak attack die increase. The 14th Artificer level would only give you an extra rune arm enhancement that increases charge rate by 25%.

[RedDragonScale]

And Eladrins follow up post said he realised that was a really dumb idea and he now agree's with the way the programmer set it up.

Eladrin never said that.


Here's what he ACTUALLY said:

I've just looked into it. Mechanic actually sets the ability modifier for crossbows to Intelligence, which means that it's doing the same thing as Insightful Damage. (This is why they're not stacking.)

I'll have to think about this a little bit, since I see some reasons why it was done the way it was.

emphasis mine

Clearly, there's more that can be open to interpretation in Eladrin's ACTUAL statement than your open and shut case characterization of what he said.




EDIT: Hmmm...looks like a couple of folks beat me to the punch. Nevertheless, I'll leave my post the way it is to help counter Shade's assertions.