Alchemical weapons cant be ONLY way for DPS in DDO

[Monkey_Archer]

The new crafted weapons are not nearly as good as most people think...

Lets take a 3x air silver/good khopesh for example. This will likely be the most common devil/pitfiend weapon crafted. It has:

15.525 base damage (5.5 base +6 enhancements * 1.35 crit profile)
3.5 shock
2.2 shocking burst (11 base * 4 crits /20)
2.625 electrifying blast, ssuming no saves (52.5 / 20)
12 lightning strike (600 damage * 2%)
----
35.85 average damage per swing


Now compare that to a cannith crafted hobglob:

18.225 base damage (4.5 base + 9 enhancement * 1.35 crit profile)
7 holy
2.8 holy burst (14 * 4 crits / 20)
10.5 bane damage
-----
38.525 average damage per swing

So even a basic hobglob does more damage then the best alchemical devil beater, and thats assuming no saves from electrifying blast. Now the 6% doublestrike will pull the alchemical 3xair ahead, but since they don't stack it will only be useful as an offhand weapon.

For comparison, even a basic greensteel lightning strike will be a better mainhand weapon then 3x alchemical when you don't need to break DR:

14.175 (5.5base +5 enhancment * 1.35 crit profile)
7 holy
3.5 shock
2.2 shocking burst
2.2 shocking blast
0.7 shocking blast vorpal
12 lightning strike
----
41.775

[Monkey_Archer]

My final conclusion for other who fell like I do is: Think if you really need epic weapons. Those that are weak will be just useless. Soon you will link someone your item and he will say "don't joke around and get an Alchamical Weapon or we wont consider you DPS".
I would say - do not try to make epic weapons, it will be a waste of your time unfortunately for all ppl who grinded quests to get epic weapons parts. Just gring the new pack, make alchemical weapons, maybe we will get any reason to make old epics someday..

My conclusion? To paraphrase:

Soon you will link someone your dual alchemical weapons and they will say "dont joke around and get a real dps weapon like a level 12 greensteel lightning strike"

Maybe someday there will be a reason to put an alchemical weapon in your mainhand...

[Astraghal]

All this new gear will do is increase the melee options of blue bar classes when solo'ing. I see melee focused Favored Souls coming out on top here. The power of a caster is innate, while the power of a melee comes from gear. Turbine needs to set some class restrictions on the best melee gear, otherwise casters will always be on top if they are going to be the best DPS/self-healing/utility in the game, as well as being able to chuck on some epic melee gear and have reasonable melee DPS.

[quijenoth]

And yet all this DOOooom comes when it has been stated (and even started to be implemented) that epics are being revised. Devs have said no new epic content until they have worked out how best to fix its flaws. new combat and spells was just the start. perhaps we will see more revised items, revised loot distribution on scrolls etc and perhaps even epic scaling up to 25?!?! who knows except the powers that be.

I appreciate your concern on the power choices but really you are comparing apples to oranges. until we know what changes are coming to epics we dont have a clue if they will become more powerful, easier to obtain or (DOOOM) bank fillers.

Comparing them to Greensteel has more validity since GS is considered end game weaponry even with its lvl 16 aquired level and lvl 12 use! Alchemical weapons should be better but they will never make GS obsolete due to the lvl 12 use for TRs.

[FengXian]

For comparison, even a basic greensteel lightning strike will be a better mainhand weapon then 3x alchemical when you don't need to break DR:

You forget stunning +10, heightened awareness 4 and +2 exc dex...or making it fire/air/air to replace shocking burst with flaming burst, flaming blast, seeker +10...seeker +10!

I can't talk for sure not having tested anything, but these new weapons seem to have a bit too much on them...especially handwraps...I mean, litII AND stunning +10? AND +4 insight AC? Doublestrike 6% too? Mmmm... plus ToD rings...not hating monks, just wanna know if things will be staying like this, so I TR into one myself...

[Monkey_Archer]

You forget stunning +10, heightened awareness 4 and +2 exc dex...or making it fire/air/air to replace shocking burst with flaming burst, flaming blast, seeker +10...seeker +10!

I can't talk for sure not having tested anything, but these new weapons seem to have a bit too much on them...especially handwraps...I mean, litII AND stunning +10? AND +4 insight AC? Doublestrike 6% too? Mmmm... plus ToD rings...not hating monks, just wanna know if things will be staying like this, so I TR into one myself...

Oh im not saying they're weak or anything...
My point is that they are not even close to the be-all-end-all of dps weapons that alot of people seem to think they are. They are glorified trash weapons and slot consolidator offhand weapons.
THFs will still prefer ESOS for the majority of targets and TWFs will still be using Greensteel, cannith crafted, or good epic weapons (like chaosblades) in their mainhand. Only monks will see a moderate gain dps wise, and frankly they deserve it for the many handwraps bugs that never seem to get fixed and lack of GS wraps.

[FengXian]

Oh im not saying they're weak or anything...
My point is that they are not even close to the be-all-end-all of dps weapons that alot of people seem to think they are. They are glorified trash weapons and slot consolidator offhand weapons.
THFs will still prefer ESOS for the majority of targets and TWFs will still be using Greensteel, cannith crafted, or good epic weapons (like chaosblades) in their mainhand. Only monks will see a moderate gain dps wise, and frankly they deserve it for the many handwraps bugs that never seem to get fixed and lack of GS wraps.

I have the feeling you're underestimating the new weapons a bit. Monks will have a nice increase dps wise AND a huge increase in utility. What was monk's dps weapon prior to this, silver cannith crafted? now they have shocking burst/blast/lit strike. Stunning +10 on the same weapon makes it insane on epics, you dont have to lose dps switching to a stunner anymore. Doublestrike 6% explains itself. +4 ac and +2 exc dex are very nice additions too, both useful. And hey, no GS handwraps because they could put holy/shocking burst on ToD rings? Well they still can, and they have wraps way stronger than gs now.

As for TWF melees, I highly doubt they'll be using GS over alchemical even main hand. You dont have to make 2 identical alchemicals, you can keep the doublestrike one as offhand, and the seeker +10 as main. They both break dr, unlike GS. Chaosblades are extremely hard to obtain, and I'm not even sure in how many situations they'd be better...

And eSoS will still be used, ok, but hey it's eSoS...and it's not the best thf dps by as far as it used to be anymore. One can craft an alchemical something and be happy with it w/o having to farm for eSoS shard.

As I said I haven't tested but IMHO that's really too much. Maybe DPS is just slightly better (and it's not, it's significantly better than GS, remember DR breaking) but the addictional utility/slot saving is huge.

DoOoOoOoOoOoOoM!!!

[Astraghal]

You forget stunning +10, heightened awareness 4 and +2 exc dex...or making it fire/air/air to replace shocking burst with flaming burst, flaming blast, seeker +10...seeker +10!

I can't talk for sure not having tested anything, but these new weapons seem to have a bit too much on them...especially handwraps...I mean, litII AND stunning +10? AND +4 insight AC? Doublestrike 6% too? Mmmm... plus ToD rings...not hating monks, just wanna know if things will be staying like this, so I TR into one myself...

Yep, there are currently very limited options for some of these properties, making the items which possess them coveted. Going on the pattern of the last 6 months or so, I expect these weapons only look good now based on current content. I expect melee's will be nerfed in some roundabout way post u11, probably in the form of further increases in mob HP/DPS.

[Monkey_Archer]

I have the feeling you're underestimating the new weapons a bit. Monks will have a nice increase dps wise AND a huge increase in utility. What was monk's dps weapon prior to this, silver cannith crafted? now they have shocking burst/blast/lit strike. Stunning +10 on the same weapon makes it insane on epics, you dont have to lose dps switching to a stunner anymore. Doublestrike 6% explains itself. +4 ac and +2 exc dex are very nice additions too, both useful. And hey, no GS handwraps because they could put holy/shocking burst on ToD rings? Well they still can, and they have wraps way stronger than gs now.

Yes, they are good for monks... but what are the chances that they will actually function as intended?

As for TWF melees, I highly doubt they'll be using GS over alchemical even main hand. You dont have to make 2 identical alchemicals, you can keep the doublestrike one as offhand, and the seeker +10 as main. They both break dr, unlike GS. Chaosblades are extremely hard to obtain, and I'm not even sure in how many situations they'd be better...

If you're not using GS, cannith crafted or good epic weapons like chaos blades in your mainhand your doing it wrong Other then trash mobs where you might want earth alchemical for earthgrab/stone prison procs, there are very few if any targets where an alchemical mainhand is your best dps choice.
Pitfiends - Hobglob
Trash devils (or nearly any other trash not immune to lightning) - Greensteel LS
DQ - Hobgcob (you'll probably want hobgcob offhand as well)
LOB -Hobgcb
Velah - maybe an alchemical 3x water, but its probably not going to beat a Hobgdb (especially if you have a festival icyburst one)

And eSoS will still be used, ok, but hey it's eSoS...and it's not the best thf dps by as far as it used to be anymore. One can craft an alchemical something and be happy with it w/o having to farm for eSoS shard.

Is a 3 tier alchemical weapon going to be easier to farm for then an ESOS?

[krogyy]

I have the feeling...

this says it all. it seems you refuse to look at the numbers. seriously, do it.

all they add over current options is utility and convenience (less swapping, more bag space), even for monks.

[FengXian]

this says it all. it seems you refuse to look at the numbers. seriously, do it.

all they add over current options is utility and convenience (less swapping, more bag space), even for monks.

Pfff "all they add is utility". And swapping also means dps, very few builds can afford quick draw. And lit II comparison in the numbers is made assuming no DR. Maybe YOU should check them better after all.

I could agree about the farming time (not difficulty), we'll see.

Epic chaosblade is one of the hardest items to farm, takes sooo long. It's great vs devils but you could definitely consider a FBurst Fblast seeker 10 acid blast disintegration elec. blast for main hand (not even the best option among alchemicals), and the triple air for off.

But sure, if new content will give more awarenesses 4, seekers +10, stunning +10 etc. nice slot saving stuff, they might not be that OP. Always talking about current content...

[Emili]

Pfff "all they add is utility". And swapping also means dps, very few builds can afford quick draw. And lit II comparison in the numbers is made assuming no DR. Maybe YOU should check them better after all.

I could agree about the farming time (not difficulty), we'll see.

Epic chaosblade is one of the hardest items to farm, takes sooo long. It's great vs devils but you could definitely consider a FBurst Fblast seeker 10 acid blast disintegration elec. blast for main hand (not even the best option among alchemicals), and the triple air for off.

But sure, if new content will give more awarenesses 4, seekers +10, stunning +10 etc. nice slot saving stuff, they might not be that OP. Always talking about current content...

A swap accounts for .5 sec or an attack and a half on a haste boosted twf... in terms of scope I try to avoid such - should never swap on a boss unless you're using the completely wrong weapon to begin with or some bloody gimped rogue is asking you to destruct or sunder something like malicia...

One interesting scope on eChaos Blade is they lose some of thier perk in the very quest chains they come from... drow, renders, reavers and DQ (actually not a weapon to use against her) are all chaotic. Least the efreeti are lawful. They are savage devil beaters and course great against anything lawful... the 2d8 +6 and being a khopesh keep it viable against others.

[xandariant]

I think the main point here is that previous content shouldn't be utterly overshadowed.

These new weapons being top of the DPS race 85% of the time is fine. Sometimes for a build something being better elsewhere should be good. Or something just being plain different. For example, a lot of the dps strength of these new weapons is elemental based. That limits them in some places.

I guess what I'm saying is they should be new options, but not the only options. For instance, if other epic weapons competed relatively evenly with these weapons, they'd still be fine. And really good, and people would still really want them. You want a stunning +10 on a good dps weapon? Or Seeker +10? You pick up one of these new weapons. But in the other options there should be things desirable that are different. So stunning, or seeker, or whatever is not what you're looking for? Well then perhaps on of those older epic items is.

As was said, some of the updated epic items fit this position just fine.

The best way to sell new content without annoying people by making lots of stuff obsolete and making quests not get run anymore, is not by making new better than everything previous stuff. It's by making new different stuff. So that for 2 given characters, one will see the new stuff and go "That's exactly what I've been needing! I'm going to change out from using this old thing" and the second will say "That's cool, but this thing here is still what I'd rather be using. I think I might want one of those on one of my other characters though," and have both of these be perfectly legitimate actions. Even better, if stuff is just different, is when the new stuff makes people want to get that AND stuff that already exists, because both are good for what you would want, but one of them won't cover everything, because they are different.

Okay I hope some of that makes sense.
/end rambling

I feel you understand what i meant.
Basically I don't say new weapons are bad or too good for us, but I will say that renewed weapons can't fall far behind the new ones, we should have use of those and not only "farm for the new ones cause Turbine needs you to buy new pack."

On most mobs, the new craftables still don't beat an eSoS

Maybe. But I'm not sure if you can't beat it on Alchamical Weapons, but for Bosses eSOS will now fall far behind.

[FengXian]

I feel you understand what i meant.
Basically I don't say new weapons are bad or too good for us, but I will say that renewed weapons can't fall far behind the new ones, we should have use of those and not only "farm for the new ones cause Turbine needs you to buy new pack."

Exactly!

However, I understand your idea is to buff the renewed epics. I'm not sure I like where this is going.

(Too?) powerful alchemicals, further upgrades to epic weapons.

First issue would be an obvious decrease in item's balance. Some hard-to-obtain items, especially the desert ones (Chaosblade, Marilith chain) are becoming less and less useful. I really hope new content mobs/bosses are lawful or chaosblades will become even less worth farming for (I don't own the epic versions anyway so I'm neutral). They used to be must-haves for some builds, which made up for the time you spent looking for them, now you can craft something nearly as good, if not better, or replace them in many ways.
So they could either increase desert epic shards/scrolls drop rate (meh solution) or make the old epic items (not just carnival/sentinels ones) more powerful (even more meh solution), or tune down the new crafts a bit...not much, just enough to make epics a viable pick over them, and the especially hard to obtain epics stronger. I highly doubt crafting a new T3 will be harder than crafting a eMC anyway...might even be easier than crafting an eSoS...

Another problem, as someone said, is that with more powerful gear around, the devs will eventually make a further increase in difficulty, which might just translate into even more boss damage/hp.

However, more powerful gear might also mean that we're getting the stage set for epic levels next year (yay!). Which would be nice, but still wouldn't solve the problem "Why am I killing myself for this epic marilith chain when I can have seeker +10 on a dps weapon that is "viable" at worst".

To sum up, I agree with people who said that new weapons might not look OP in a few months since more powerful stuff is likely to pop up in next updates, hence more seekers, stunners, etc etc., but this still inevitably makes old, already uber rare stuff, less worth farming for, and this is not good IMHO. And there's always the monks' thing...monks are gonna hurt bad now...

[Diyon]

I think the gist of what I was trying to say is this:

Want new stuff, old stuff irrelevant = loss for turbine

Don't want new stuff, old stuff wanted = no gain for turbine, loss in production costs

Want new stuff AND want the old stuff = Gain for turbine (basically, there's a reason I want both weapons/necklace etc)

[Tinco]

Actually they got something completely right with alchemical weapons. They are a boost to dps in a lot of cases (this has to be the case to make them desirable) but they all have a lot of utility and that's the point that really sets them apart from shroud weapons. Nothing wrong here.

[FengXian]

Actually they got something completely right with alchemical weapons. They are a boost to dps in a lot of cases (this has to be the case to make them desirable) but they all have a lot of utility and that's the point that really sets them apart from shroud weapons. Nothing wrong here.

Many people underestimate the value of the utility boost. It means saving slots and possibly allowing even more dps. Seeker +10, Stunning +10 and such are not mere utilities. People used to build monks with high SB DC just for epic trash, it's not like the only relevant thing in the game are boss fights.

As Shade said in the other thread, the new end game gear should be slightly more powerful than the old one, or simply different. This is not the case, the T3s are simply better. Some minor adjustments would suffice, make it seeker +6, stunning +8, doublestrike 3% etc...Also consider that they are crafted items, which means you get to decide the abilities you put on them => even more versatility. So great versatility and great sheer power...

[Monkey_Archer]

As Shade said in the other thread, the new end game gear should be slightly more powerful than the old one, or simply different. This is not the case, the T3s are simply better.

Then Shade was right, and the design of alchemical weapons falls perfectly into his statement.

They are slightly better offhand weapons then what is currently available.
They are slightly better then the top dps handwraps currently available.

They are strictly inferior dps to the top 2-handed weapons available, therefore they can only qualify as "different".
They are also inferior to the top epic/GS/cannith crafted mainhand weapons, therefore they can only qualify as "different".

T3 alchemical weapons are not "simply better" for anything, except possibly for monks, but that should be expected considering monks have only 1 epic set of wraps and no greensteel to compare to...

[Letrii]

I feel you understand what i meant.
Basically I don't say new weapons are bad or too good for us, but I will say that renewed weapons can't fall far behind the new ones, we should have use of those and not only "farm for the new ones cause Turbine needs you to buy new pack."

Pretty standard practice in MMOs to have new gear outshine old gear to get people to buy expansions.

[FengXian]

Then Shade was right, and the design of alchemical weapons falls perfectly into his statement.

They are slightly better offhand weapons then what is currently available.
They are slightly better then the top dps handwraps currently available.

They are strictly inferior dps to the top 2-handed weapons available, therefore they can only qualify as "different".
They are also inferior to the top epic/GS/cannith crafted mainhand weapons, therefore they can only qualify as "different".

T3 alchemical weapons are not "simply better" for anything, except possibly for monks, but that should be expected considering monks have only 1 epic set of wraps and no greensteel to compare to...

Yeeaaah, "possibly for monks", "inferior the epic/GS/cannith"...oh well, I don't really care that much.