Alchemical weapons cant be ONLY way for DPS in DDO

[Caseas]

Then rarity in itself should not really be an important factor in the items power level.

This is correct, because, no matter how rare something is, given enough time everyone will have it. Then comes the problem initially avoided with rarity -- everyone having it. So then it have to counterbalanced.

Better to design stuff that isn't meant to be super-rare.

[xandariant]

You must be kidding me. I'm the only one in this thread actually providing numbers and you're telling me my claims are without substance?

I'm done here, sorry.

I'm sorry but you just tested wrong items. If you would tested what I wrote earlier you would have saw what i meant.
Yet you tested seeker +10 which is usually from the blood stone, mirilith chain or event hat. That does not give a thing in comparing.

Alchemical is epic. You aren't making tier 3 without running epic.

Running epics and making epic items is a big difference with the time you spend on it.
Believe me i can make 10epic tokens in 1-2 days easily. So it's no effort at all.

This is correct, because, no matter how rare something is, given enough time everyone will have it. Then comes the problem initially avoided with rarity -- everyone having it. So then it have to counterbalanced.

Better to design stuff that isn't meant to be super-rare.

Maybe, but does that mean we will stop doing epics?

If it is better to design something that is not ultra rare Turbine just could change epic parts drops like they were just after release of epics - scrolls dropped like every 20 mobs, not every 100+.

And all ppl who farmed epics are screwed. TY.

[FengXian]

This is correct, because, no matter how rare something is, given enough time everyone will have it. Then comes the problem initially avoided with rarity -- everyone having it. So then it have to counterbalanced.

Better to design stuff that isn't meant to be super-rare.

Yeah, you seem to forget about the already designed super-rare stuff that IS in game. Everyone having it? not quite, not yet at least.

Everyone has epic marilith? bloodstone? thornlord? chaosblades? torc? I can go on for a while here...

[xandariant]

Yeah, you seem to forget about the already designed super-rare stuff that IS in game. Everyone having it? not quite, not yet at least.

Everyone has epic marilith? bloodstone? thornlord? chaosblades? torc? I can go on for a while here...

So true. But rare epic weapons will be totally overthrown by new pack. Since Turbine don't want to upgrade them to have similar DPS they will just stay that way.

No one will soon bother to make other epic wepons. I wonder if it is a part of a bigger plan of us going to quests on lvls 20-25.

Yet I think this strategy is very wicked.

[Tinco]

It's sunday evening, I can't play so this is the big THF comparison:

Assumed: damage bonus 60, improved crit feat, base weapon falchion, seeker 10, computed over 20 strikes.

Contestants: Lit II Falchion (with dr breaking infusion), e/e/e falchion, a/a/a falchion, HBoGEOB (with large guild augment), eAGA (+7 slotted), eSoS (Ruin Slotted)
Alchemical weapons are either Flametouched Iron + Metal(line) slotted or of the apppropriate metal type and good slotted.

Lit II falchion:

2d6 + 65 (72), 15-20/x2. 1 miss, 13 hits, 6 crits.
1920 13*72 + 6*2*82 physical damage (0% fort)
1617 16*72 + 3*2*82 physical damage (50% fort)
133 19*7 holy damage
99.5 19*3.5 + 5.5*6 shocking burst damage
47 6*5.5 + 1*14 shocking blast damage
300 0.5*600 lightning strike damage (2.5% proc assumed)
= 2499.5 Damage (2196 50% fort)

e/e/e falchion

2d6 + 66 (73), 15-20/x2. 1 miss, 13 hits, 6 crits.
1954 13*73 + 6*2*83 physical damage (0% fort)
1666 16*73 + 3*2*83 physical damage (50% fort)
99.5 19*3.5 + 5.5*6 acid burst damage
250 0.5*500 disintegration damage (2.5% proc assumed)
47 6*5.5 + 1*14 acid blast damage
35 1*35 corrosive blast damage
= 2358.5 Damage (2097.5 50%fort)

a/a/a falchion

2d6 + 66 (73), 15-20/x2. 1 miss, 13 hits, 6 crits.
1954 13*73 + 6*2*83 physical damage (0% fort)
1666 16*73 + 3*2*83 physical damage (50% fort)
99.5 19*3.5 + 5.5*6 shocking burst damage
300 0.5*600 lightning strike damage (2.5% proc assumed)
35 1*35 electrifying blast damage
+6% 6% doublestrike
= 2531.8 Damage (2223.3 50% fort)

HBoGEOB falchion

2d4 + 69 (74), 15-20/x2. 1 miss, 13 hits, 6 crits.
1970 13*74 + 6*2*84 physical damage (0% fort)
1688 16*74 + 3*2*84 physical damage (50% fort)
196 19*7 + 6*10.5 holy burst damage
266 19*14 damage (greater bane damage)
47.5 19*2.5 damage (large guild augment)
= 2479 Damage (2197.5 50% fort)

eAGA

3d10+69 (85.5), 19-20/x3. 1 miss, 17 hits, 2 crits
2026.5 17*85.5 + 2*3*95.5 physical damage (0% fort)
1740 17*85.5 + 3*1*95.5 physical damage (50% fort)
99.5 19*3.5 + 5.5*6 Force Burst burst damage
= 2126 Damage (1839.5 50% fort)

eSoS

5d6+70 (87.5), 15-20/x3. 1 miss, 13 hits, 6 crits.
2892.5 13*87.5 + 6*3*97.5 physical damage (0% fort)
2277.5 16*87 + 3*3*97.5 physical damage (50% fort)
= 2892.5 (2277.5 50% fort)

Tl;dr:

Lit II: 2499.5 Damage (2196 50% fort)
e/e/e: 2358.5 Damage (2097.5 50%fort)
a/a/a: 2531.8 Damage (2223.3 50% fort)
HBoGEOB: 2479 Damage (2197.5 50% fort)
eAGA: 2126 Damage (1839.5 50% fort)
eSoS: 2892.5 (2277.5 50% fort)

What can we learn? Best crafted weapon is less than 1% behind an a/a/a vs. 50% fort, Lit II with a helpful artificer 1% behind an a/a/a, the eAGA is only useful if you don't have a better dr breaker (which is kind if the purpose of this axe) and about 10% behind an a/a/a, the ESoS with slotted Ruin is even against 50% fort better than an a/a/a and still the pretty much uncontested trash King (with the eXuum). e/e/e is decent utility but not outstanding dps. Lit II is surprisingly good with an infusion attached to it, keep in mind though that the deadly weapons infusion might or might not be available with U11 which skews the charts towards the weapons with the strong base dice (eSoS, eAGA).

[xandariant]

It's sunday evening, I can't play so this is the big THF comparison:

(...)

Tl;dr:

Lit II: 2499.5 Damage (2196 50% fort)
e/e/e: 2358.5 Damage (2097.5 50%fort)
a/a/a: 2531.8 Damage (2223.3 50% fort)
HBoGEOB: 2479 Damage (2197.5 50% fort)
eAGA: 2126 Damage (1839.5 50% fort)
eSoS: 2892.5 (2277.5 50% fort)

What can we learn? Best crafted weapon is less than 1% behind an a/a/a vs. 50% fort, Lit II with a helpful artificer 1% behind an a/a/a, the eAGA is only useful if you don't have a better dr breaker (which is kind if the purpose of this axe) and about 10% behind an a/a/a, the ESoS with slotted Ruin is even against 50% fort better than an a/a/a and still the pretty much uncontested trash King (with the eXuum). e/e/e is decent utility but not outstanding dps. Lit II is surprisingly good with an infusion attached to it, keep in mind though that the deadly weapons infusion might or might not be available with U11 which skews the charts towards the weapons with the strong base dice (eSoS, eAGA).

Thank you for your time.

And so it is like I wrote in main post:
"Best crafted weapon is less than 1% behind an a/a/a vs. 50% fort" - only if you considered large guild slot, but I guess the difference will be only a little bigger without it.
"Lit II with a helpful artificer 1% behind an a/a/a" - Yeah... but as it was said, helpful artificer will cast deadly weapon spell and make LIT II far behind others - which is actually good considering it not an end game weapon.
"the eAGA is only useful if you don't have a better dr breaker (which is kind if the purpose of this axe) and about 10% behind an a/a/a" - Really? I don't recall Genasi saying anything about it to be easies multipurpose axe, you missed MIN2 that was supposed to be easy to make axe (or whatever).
It was supposed to be a great quite easy to make BB, now it only waits for Deadly weapon spell and I think that more ppl not only me are disappointed with how low its DPS is.
Especially if helpful artificer that was supposed to make it better will bust other weapons also, so eAGA will be at best with similar DPS and deadly weapon on eSOS will make it killer even with bosses 100% fort we will just get.

In the end (as I wrote in main post) renewed epic DPS weapons tend to be a joke, they fall a lot behind what we are currently given. So what is the point with making them?

[Tinco]

In the end (as I wrote in main post) renewed epic DPS weapons tend to be a joke, they fall a lot behind what we are currently given. So what is the point with making them?

They all got some utility that's impossible to replace with alchemical crafting. Blinding, Destruction, Dragonmark bonuses, cha to att/dmg, keen, bonus to assassinate checks - which all are depending on the character and situation worth more or less than other weapons. There can be only one raw dps king, but there can be myriads of useful weapons anyhow and I see the new ones as situational but situational useful.

[xandariant]

They all got some utility that's impossible to replace with alchemical crafting. Blinding, Destruction, Dragonmark bonuses, cha to att/dmg, keen, bonus to assassinate checks - which all are depending on the character and situation worth more or less than other weapons. There can be only one raw dps king, but there can be myriads of useful weapons anyhow and I see the new ones as situational but situational useful.

If you can replace eAGA with just 2 other items that will be easier to make in time and those 2 will give 10% more DPS and a lot more utility (since alchemical weapons get more utility) that means that renewed epics are poorly made.

Besides you write in general. True comes from comparing like i did in main post. Please compare and then allow all of us see how much I'm wrong.
As I see from comparing, renewed epics are a lot inferior to alchemicals.
Yet since Turbine seems to turn the blind eye on this topic until now, I guess we wont see much changes soon or at all.

If it comes to usability I think most usability is not in weapons - aside of those mentioned in main post like Elyd Edge, Midnight Greetings etc. Things that makes classes like bards do a lot more DPS than they did untill now, not to mention additional bonuses to songs or assassinations.
Usability in fighting are things like: doublestrike, seeker or stuning - we have all that in alchemical weapons. There are also abilities with low usability like improved destruction, that can get anyone form party or you can get it form armor (only non-improved but still it will be enough) or keen that most don't cause they use feat. Blinding is much better on GS rapier (cause crit range) and dragonmakrs on bastardsword will be inferior to 2 alchemical kopeshes style.
I will gladly see evidence that it isn't as I feel.

Besides i focus on DPS since it is usually the most important for 90% of fighting/DPS classes, and usability goes more for classes considered specialists or multi-classes not focused on giving more DPS.

I kinda wrote this topic to allow ppl see how DPS has changed and that it has be thrown over by alchemical weapons with no place in the end for normal epic weapons, so saying that renewed epics gives a lot of usability is both: not true and off topic also...