Alchemical weapons cant be ONLY way for DPS in DDO

[TheDjinnFor]

PS: And people compare GS to Epics all the time.

Because they're comparable...? Lit 2 is still pretty great.

[Tinco]

If the nature of MMO is to throw once 1-2 year new items to make me throw all previous made items. I will think about stopping playing.
Except for that I'm all good.

We threw away VoN items, then we threw away battle coins and crescent moons, after that we threw away all but one or two pieces of the reaver loot, then we only did abbot for the litany and the staff of the petitioner. Hound and VoD are only run for the less than five desirable items. After that we threw all those away for epic loot and continued throwing away epic rings, belts and necklaces for tower loot. Now we throw away shroud weapons and some bad epic weapons for alchemical loot. Big deal? No.

You can play MMOs for thousands of reasons but if you want to win it, you're in a bad spot (or you have to go completionist).

[FengXian]

We threw away VoN items, then we threw away battle coins and crescent moons, after that we threw away all but one or two pieces of the reaver loot, then we only did abbot for the litany and the staff of the petitioner. Hound and VoD are only run for the less than five desirable items. After that we threw all those away for epic loot and continued throwing away epic rings, belts and necklaces for tower loot. Now we throw away shroud weapons and some bad epic weapons for alchemical loot. Big deal? No.

You can play MMOs for thousands of reasons but if you want to win it, you're in a bad spot (or you have to go completionist).

Nobody said ALL the friggin items from each high level pack have to be END GAME. But at least 1-2 should. You can't possibly think that it's ok having to buy a new pack in order to keep up with the game's increasing difficulty, you just can't.

The big deal is that we're throwing away the GOOD epic weapons too.

It's no big deal to me tho, I'd grind them even if they had less utility...the problem is that we'll lose even more people that used to run desert, von, the renewed epics etc...

[Tinco]

Nobody said ALL the friggin items from each high level pack have to be END GAME. But at least 1-2 should. You can't possibly think that it's ok having to buy a new pack in order to keep up with the game's increasing difficulty, you just can't.

This is plain wrong. Alchemical Weapons only do slightly more damage than shroud weapons even during their best moments and pretty much all utility provided can be found on other existing loot. I completely fail to see the problem, it's not like you're doing 50% more damage with the new weapons, more like 5%-10% once in a blue moon.

Physical weapons alchemical crafting is all about consolidation of slots and convenience with a good enough dps potential to make them actually useful as dps weapons. Nothing more, nothing less.

[grodon9999]

With scaling of raid bosses and raids themselves that is happening from U7 (or so) - yes, raids were updated a bit in time. I know it first hand since on the same toon in U7 i was able to heal easily hard VOD, and in U10 the same toon with 2 other healers were almost OOM at the end of the quest. Mobs and boss did a whole more dmg and if I'm right it progressed with every update.
.

The bosses weren't changed in VoD, the trash was. You can't vorp them anymore. The boss changes are coming on Monday.

[Vellrad]

I don't understand why people say that since this pack is added, noone will make GS or other epic items.
What are you planning to use in this new epic raid? Random +1 flaming dagger of deception?

[FengXian]

This is plain wrong. Alchemical Weapons only do slightly more damage than shroud weapons even during their best moments and pretty much all utility provided can be found on other existing loot. I completely fail to see the problem, it's not like you're doing 50% more damage with the new weapons, more like 5%-10% once in a blue moon.

Physical weapons alchemical crafting is all about consolidation of slots and convenience with a good enough dps potential to make them actually useful as dps weapons. Nothing more, nothing less.

So slots and convenience are...hmm what, minor stuff? Who cares if I free my seeker slot so I can wear Red Dragon robe over marilith huh?

What do I gain from not having to swap for a stunner anymore?

Yeah, slot consolidation is nothing special...that's what you said

5-10% more dps, stunning +10, exc stat +2...gross, let's stick with the 5-10% less dps-no utility weapons!

[Tinco]

Yeah, slot consolidation is nothing special...that's what you said

I did not. This kind of consolidation IS something special, in fact it's the whole selling point of the new endgame raid loot. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

[EDIT] Oh yes, replacing eMarilith Chain with Red Dragonscale Armor is surely great when you have to take flaming bust on your tier1 weapon to get seeker +10 anyway. Another limitation here. And walking into devil content with fire tier1 adds seeker +10, but with flaming burst and flaming blast not working it won't even be remotely as much dps as a plain Lit II or even a basic crafted dr-breaker (holy/eob).

[FengXian]

I did not. This kind of consolidation IS something special, in fact it's the whole selling point of the new endgame raid loot. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm confused :/

We agree these new weapons can AT LEAST match the old good ones in DPS terms. We agree they provide, IN ADDITION, good slot consolidation. And yet they won't overshadow the old ones? Why not?

DPS + huge utility >>>>>>>>>>> DPS + nothing.

[Tinco]

I'm confused :/

We agree these new weapons can AT LEAST match the old good ones in DPS terms.

They can, very situationally. Examples outlined above in my edit and in a longer post of mine on the previous page. And this comparison is based on shroud items, not on stuff like an ESoS. The utility comes with severe limitations regarding your dps on resistant monsters.

We agree they provide, IN ADDITION, good slot consolidation. And yet they won't overshadow the old ones? Why not?

They are situationally amongst the best dps weapons in the game, but because of their limitations, they leave enough space for other weaponry to be useful. And they should be! It's the newest, probably hardest content in the game, it's a big update, a new big crafting system, it's the successor of the shroud crafting for weapons.

DPS + huge utility >>>>>>>>>>> DPS + nothing.

Again, their elemental nature makes this kind of statement a pretty meaningless generalization.

[FengXian]

About their dps being situational.

You can use the lit one on devils. But Lailat and LoB are immune to lit right? Problem? No!

You can just make another of a different element and you're fine vs immune bosses too!

The eSoS is ONE. The new weapons are CRAFTABLE, you can make whatever you like, for every situation.



And raid bosses aside, picture this: stunning +10, AC+4, doulblestrike +6% in one hand, greater stone prison, earthgrab, disintegration in the other. Plus various bursts/blasts/whatever. Plus exc dex and exc con +2. Really? Oh and they're slashers, too, no longer need for blunt to stun.

[Indoran]

I have a question :P on alchemical weapons... ok lets say I am TWF and I have 1 weapon with seeker 10 will it apply to itself only or to the other weapon too? ty

Back on topic, I dont think they will be the only way to dps, I think developers are being successful in introducing flavor into the game by giving options.

This weapons are going to be situationally the best which is good (as much as eSoS is soooo awesome it has instances where it loses some of it's shine just think of fortification above 75% and you will see it's dps falling dramatically)

As a side note... monks will be happy not to have to depend so much on random loot...

[Tinco]

The eSoS is ONE. The new weapons are CRAFTABLE, you can make whatever you like, for every situation.

Yes. But you can't have every utility you want while maintaining the top dps where you want. Stunning or dps in cannith content. Seeker or dps in devil content. There are places in the game where these weapons will be unquestionably the best ones available. This is great, because it makes them desirable. Does this make some weapons obsolete? Of course it does, that happens with every good new item introduced into the game. Are epic weapons junk now? Aside from the those that were junk before I can't think of an epic weapon that's completely invalidated now. Some still have more damage in a lot of situations, some have unique utility, some break DR easier.

[Tinco]

As I was interested about the state of the ESoS compared to a fire/fire/fire Alchemical Greataxe I rolled some dices and hopefully did no mistakes:

Improved Crit feat, damage bonus: 60, 20 strikes

Esos:

5d6 + 10 (27.5+60), 15-20/x3

1 miss, 13 hits, 6 crits

13*87.5 (hit) + 18*87.5 (crit) = 2712.5


Alchemical fire/fire/fire:

3d6 + 9 (6, except Str+2(1), Righteousness(2)) (19.5+60), 19-20/x3

1 miss, 17 hits, 2 crits

17*79.5 (hit) + 17*3.5 (flaming) + 6*79.5 (crit) + 2*3*10 (seeker 10)+ 22*2 (flaming burst/blast) +
14*1 (flaming blast vorpal) + 24.5*1 (tier 3 blast) + 300 (incineration, 5% proc)

1351+59.5+477+60+44+14+24.5+300 = 2330 + ~10% faster attack than greatsword = 2566

seeker 10
flaming burst
flaming blast
incineration
righteousness
excep str +2
tier 3 7d6 on vorpal (mobs assumed to make saves)

If you now factor in that the ESoS wearer can additionally use seeker 8 (eBloodstone), flaming burst (Redscale) as well as a ToD ring with +2 exceptional str you can see that even the all-out dps variants (might check with tier 2 lightning) of the alchemical crafting will be a lot behind on trash. I'm not good at computing glancing blows, no idea what works better with those.

The ESoS and most likely the EXuum too are not in any danger for Trash-THF-damage. You don't get max dps and utility here with the new crafting. I Might check later the math against bosses with various fortification levels.

[FengXian]

Yes. But you can't have every utility you want while maintaining the top dps where you want. Stunning or dps in cannith content. Seeker or dps in devil content. There are places in the game where these weapons will be unquestionably the best ones available. This is great, because it makes them desirable. Does this make some weapons obsolete? Of course it does, that happens with every good new item introduced into the game. Are epic weapons junk now? Aside from the those that were junk before I can't think of an epic weapon that's completely invalidated now. Some still have more damage in a lot of situations, some have unique utility, some break DR easier.

Of course new gear making SOME weapon obsolete is fine. But making the best old weapons obsolete, is not. ESoS, EAG, EChaosblades, of course they are still strong. But they are way worse than the alchemicals.

Antique Greataxe breaks all dr, it's more versatile than one alchemical. But you can just make 2 alchemicals (silver and cold iron) and you won't ever need the AG anymore. Or even make one alchemical with t2 fire (righteousness) to break 2 dr, if you need a global dr breaker.

The SoS was the best THF because of its crits. Now hard/elite bosses get more fort, not sure where that will put the SoS in dps terms. Sure you can still break dr with a DA crystal, but again, one type and lots of farming. Or you can break dr with the arti's buff, but then you lose the double base damage. It's still supposed to be the king vs trash, but even then, alchemicals bring stun +10 on a slasher...My GS kensei will much more likely be using an alchemical GS on trash since I had to switch for a stunner sometimes for the big fort mobs.
Besides, SoS is an extreme example: it used to be the undisputed king of THF dps, it was already TOO strong itself. Now it's been "nerfed" with the fort increase, but making even bigger stuff is not really the best solution.

Chaosblades were very good vs devils. But they can't break dr, unless pally 20 or artificer. Alchemicals are way better, no need to explain much here.

Epic Xuum used to be arguably the best trash weapon on mobs w/o fire res, Alchemicals are way better now.

Aside from VERY class/race specific weapons like Chimera Fang on a human greater dragonmark user or dunno, elyd edge? not many more tho, the alchemicals are better. You get great sheer power plus a lot of customization (which is an aspect that's been kinda forgotten here, but we should remember they are CRAFTABLE, you can combine them to get almost whatever you need for a particular situation, just like GS.)

On top of that, there's no way t3s will be harder to obtain than desert epics...not even sure if they'll be harder to obtain than eSoS.


So please tell me why should I keep farming desert over the new pack now. I know why, I want the Thornlord. But melee/casters? Chaosblades, Marilith, Staff, Green Blade, Torc, Xuum, they're all sub-par now.

[Aaxeyu]

Of course new gear making SOME weapon obsolete is fine. But making the best old weapons obsolete, is not.

The logical conclusion of that is that we should all be using weapons that are about equal to plain +5 weapons in power.

I strongly disagree. I don't see the problem with gear progression.

[FengXian]

If you now factor in that the ESoS wearer can additionally use seeker 8 (eBloodstone), flaming burst (Redscale) as well as a ToD ring with +2 exceptional str you can see that even the all-out dps variants (might check with tier 2 lightning) of the alchemical crafting will be a lot behind on trash. I'm not good at computing glancing blows, no idea what works better with those.

The ESoS and most likely the EXuum too are not in any danger for Trash-THF-damage. You don't get max dps and utility here with the new crafting. I Might check later the math against bosses with various fortification levels.

As I said ESoS is still good on trash in DPS terms, but the stunning +10 and, if TWF, the other CC options, are just too good.
If you're in a perma-hold situation, pure dps is better on trash, but you'll often want to stun a mob to prevent him from attacking/running around etc...We all know how useful stun can be on epic...

[FengXian]

The logical conclusion of that is that we should all be using weapons that are about equal to plain +5 weapons in power.

I strongly disagree. I don't see the problem with gear progression.

Show me a ML 20 plain +5. Gear progression happens with level cap progression. Same ML, same rarity gear should have different abilities but the same total power level. It's soooo obvious.

[Aaxeyu]

Show me a ML 20 plain +5. Gear progression happens with level cap progression. Same ML, same rarity gear should have different abilities but the same total power level. It's soooo obvious.

With the new premises you do indeed make a better case. The ML is quite irrelevant though.

Gear that is hard to get should be better than gear that is easy to get.
(Running an easy raid many times does not make it hard)

[Tinco]

Sorry, you're now just too defensive. If eXuum and eSoS are still top DPS then there's choice. Choice of utility or damage - and this is a good thing. The more I run the actual numbers the more I like the whole new crafting (melee, caster sticks are another topic).

You see? That's the point I try to pass along for the whole topic now. This is not an in-your-face crafting that makes everything before and after obsolete, this is more about subtle (turbine-subtle ) choices what I prefer as as player in what situation.