Alchemical weapons cant be ONLY way for DPS in DDO

[voodoogroves]

There's going to be power creep.

Yes, when you step into that normal VOD with your crafted +4 holy silver of evil outsider bane and the other guy is in there with his over-9000-alchemical-thing you may not be able to hold aggro like you were expecting.

Gear > Player > Build

He's got the gear - not necessarily the other two.

The nice thing is, you can still complete the raid. Probably even faster. It may not help with Abbot or Hound in the least. It may be unnoticable in Shroud. It may make some eVON6 fights go a bit faster.

[Thrudh]

Should I farm for an eSoS knowing I'll need devil ruin to make it work, or just make a permanently DR-breaking-still-great-dps-and-huge-utility Greataxe? That might even be a slashing stunner, btw?

Sounds like they did a good job... Now you have to make a decision instead of one choice being the obvious winner.

[Tinco]

say seeker +6

seeker +6 with flaming burst would be plain underwhelming for a lot of content. Cannith crafting, Pirate-Party-Hat, Bloodstone, Marilith Chain all offer this on top of Lit II or ESoS etc.

or stunning +8

10% less chance of stunning successfully compared to random lootgen items would make this a non-bludgeoning option only. This would still be strong for Khops or GAxes but every serious monk would switch for trash that matters.

they would still be VERY good and sought after, but wouldn't overshadow epics, cuz now they do.

They overshadow the same epics that were overshadowed by Lit II weapons already. And I disagree with the first part. 10 mediocre weapon traits don't make the package desirable, that's the nature of a (mostly) non-stacking system like DDO uses.

Should I farm for an eSoS knowing I'll need devil ruin to make it work

The ESoS is far from doomed against all but the hard/elite double-DR bosses (assuming no devil's/demon's ruin) where high level Cannith crafted weapons are already today the more convenient solution. That it's getting at least some competition is not the worst side-effect that could happen.
The ESoS is a perfect example how you shouldn't design a weapon by the way.

or just make a permanently DR-breaking-still-great-dps-and-huge-utility Greataxe? That might even be a slashing stunner, btw?

Sure you make that Uber-Greataxe but no matter what you craft there will be areas in the game where your elemental setup will be suboptimal.

And no, it's not all about DPS now, there are many many more aspects one needs to consider. SOME builds forsake everithing else for DPS, but there are many, many more that don't...

It's not about forsaking everything in a build, it's the simple fact that if these weapons don't do great damage in at least some situation, no one would bother.

[FengXian]

You quoted a lot, but you read very little.

Other stuff offer better seeker, so what? Do alchemical weapons have to be on top of everything?

Monks will switch for stunners? Well they SHOULD HAVE TO.

Renewed epics weren't overshadowed by GS, you're wrong here too.

ESoS actually is kinda exagerated, so yeah, I might agree on this one.

And who cares if they don't work everywhere? You still craft 2, or even 3, and you're set for every situation. And they're not just doing "some" DPS, their DPS is great! Utility is great! Until now weapons had either great DPS or ( great) utility, they have both!



Epic SoS is very strong, we agree on that, right? Now it's been rebalanced by increased boss fort. Alchemicals will have more DPS than SoS vs hard/elite bosses, I guess. Or slightly inferior in some situations, but still good enough.
That would be ok, right?
BUT! They also get a load of utilities on them! So comparable to top dps, which would already be enough for them to be considered. On top of that, if they had:
Decent utility = even more considered, must haves for some builds.
Good utility = greatly considered, must haves for many builds.
Great utiliy = must haves for most builds.

Oh, and they can be one-handed, too...so double the utility side...

Just like epic sos used to be. Now they threw in a bunch of craftable epic Swords of Shadows...enjoy until they nerf them after enought people buy the pack after we'll have farmed the hell out of the raids...

[Tinco]

You quoted a lot, but you read very little.

We have to agree to disagree, this won't lead anywhere I want to go. In my opinion, your repetition of 'Doooom' as well as your blatant exaggerations regarding the raw damage of these weapons is not warranted. Alchemical crafting produces the best consolidated weapons in the game which will make them useful multi-purpose tools we can look forward to replace the current gear. Neither the damage nor the utility alone is extraordinary compared to what is available at the moment on gear and I stand by my opinion that this is the best solution Turbine could pull off with a new big weapon crafting system that's obviously intended to succeed and surmount what's craftable in the shroud.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Sigh. I've been playing this game for nearly 4 years (max lvl was 12, when I started, I think) and I honestly think, this has gotten "too big" for me. We have SO many new weapons and crafting choices now that only the dedicated/addicted/hardcore player can get their heads around of. For fellas like yours truly playing a few hours per night, we'll make do with Good ol' Shroud and Epic items, I'll let you fellas have all the fun/aggravation with the new toys.

[Caseas]

I see all ppl saying "it will be so hard to complete new raid", and I haven't done it on Lammania, but I'm afraid It wont mater when ppl will run it 10 or 20 times it will get easier and easier so in the end in probably few months we will have grinding like Shroud. Epic Chrono was also hard to do at the start, yet now ppl grind it just like that. That is in my opinion the future of all quests, so when i say that I'm comparing them its not because It will not be a great work now, but cause it wont be much that much in 6 months when ppl will get to know the new quest.

I'm wondering why do you compare current epics to Tier 2 and not completed item (Tier 3) which gets its red slot and +6 enhancement. Why do you think Tier 3 shouldn't be equal to current (or renewed) epic items - I have no clue why do you think that, but I have to say I disagree in here a lot.

As for Improved Destruction my monk have wraps with them and ppl use HoX armor with Destruction, so its not really that hard AC down. Monks loose the least on switching pure good or greater bane to improved destruction and destruction don't cost much any melee (it would cost considering Mirilith Chain or it's epic but crits won't mater in U11 and later updates so ppl can switch to Destruction armor instead of seeker armor).

If I didn't cover your thoughts let me know.
I still think this new crafting will do a lot of damage to all players.
Don't underestimate ppls experience in doing epics and grinding, but please analyze how much really better those items are than those new epics.


Well those items are awesome, but I'm not speaking about caster items, but melee items. Just look what they can do. It really is a lot more than all current items and more than eSOS on bosses after U11.
Basically those will be must to have for melees.

Is this your first MMO?

This is the nature of MMO's; New stuff replaces old stuff. New stuff starts out hard and gets easier.

Don't let your perception of 'good' fool you.

[Caseas]

Sigh. I've been playing this game for nearly 4 years (max lvl was 12, when I started, I think) and I honestly think, this has gotten "too big" for me. We have SO many new weapons and crafting choices now that only the dedicated/addicted/hardcore player can get their heads around of. For fellas like yours truly playing a few hours per night, we'll make do with Good ol' Shroud and Epic items, I'll let you fellas have all the fun/aggravation with the new toys.

Don't be discouraged.

It may take you longer to wrap your head around it, but, it will not be impossible. It'll be just like learning anything else:

Repetition, repetition, repetition.

[ThePrisoner]

Garos' Malice should also have sneak attack +5/+8 on it unless it was taken away and not mentioned in the release notes.

It is intended for rogues since it blinds, has sneak attack, and is a short sword - finessable and one of the few martial class weapons.

For its intended audience, I like the Garos more than the alchemical weapon listed.

[FengXian]

Is this your first MMO?

This is the nature of MMO's; New stuff replaces old stuff. New stuff starts out hard and gets easier.

Don't let your perception of 'good' fool you.

Heck no. Better stuff replaces worse stuff. Better stuff is harder to obtain than worse stuff. Unless we get crazy low t3 ings drop rate, we won't have this.

So to keep it balanced options are:

1) Looow drop rate on t3 ings. Comparable to epic torc ings drop rate (shard?) and such. Would you like that? I wouldn't.

2) Higher drop rates for desert. This problem kinda stands on its own. Either way you look at it, desert items have too low drop rate. It's a bad thing, but is acceptable as long as some of them are the top items in the game. Which is not true anymore. Just epic thornlord stays, the rest is easily replaced. You could still use torc for the recharge but no need to make it epic anymore I guess.

3) Lower powah for the new items. Put them on the same level as the good epics. Make people choose, or give them different abilities so they might want both.

We need people running all epic content, not just the usual few quests/raids, while this update will actually narrow the choices even more.

[xandariant]

You quoted a lot, but you read very little.

Other stuff offer better seeker, so what? Do alchemical weapons have to be on top of everything?

Monks will switch for stunners? Well they SHOULD HAVE TO.

Renewed epics weren't overshadowed by GS, you're wrong here too.

ESoS actually is kinda exagerated, so yeah, I might agree on this one.

And who cares if they don't work everywhere? You still craft 2, or even 3, and you're set for every situation. And they're not just doing "some" DPS, their DPS is great! Utility is great! Until now weapons had either great DPS or ( great) utility, they have both!


Epic SoS is very strong, we agree on that, right? Now it's been rebalanced by increased boss fort. Alchemicals will have more DPS than SoS vs hard/elite bosses, I guess. Or slightly inferior in some situations, but still good enough.
That would be ok, right?
BUT! They also get a load of utilities on them! So comparable to top dps, which would already be enough for them to be considered. On top of that, if they had:
Decent utility = even more considered, must haves for some builds.
Good utility = greatly considered, must haves for many builds.
Great utiliy = must haves for most builds.

Oh, and they can be one-handed, too...so double the utility side...

Just like epic sos used to be. Now they threw in a bunch of craftable epic Swords of Shadows...enjoy until they nerf them after enought people buy the pack after we'll have farmed the hell out of the raids...

/great post
As pointed Alchemical weapons have great utility and best dmg, so it is must to have and it makes all other stuff in the game fall way too much behind. Especially when renewed epics were to make ppl hunt for them.
Now in the same update we get a bit better weapons and they get slammed with way better AW.

As I pointed, I don't believe ppl won't easily grind the new weapons soon. It will only be painful at the start and thats it. Then it will be like GS, and epic weapons will fall back again, this time for good?

Is there any point of doing epic weapons at all now? Cause i fail to see any anymore.
(Even if eSOS will be good for trash, AW will only be a little bit behind, and eSOS will be useless for bosses, eAGA will do a lot less dmg than per swing than AW, other items... Well i matched them, i don't a lot of usefulness in them anymore, I don't even compare old epics like Timeblade that will be only utility now, but that is on since its natural. I cant agree with so big base nerf of renewed weapons, sorry.)

Is this your first MMO?
This is the nature of MMO's; New stuff replaces old stuff. New stuff starts out hard and gets easier.
Don't let your perception of 'good' fool you.

Nope, its not the first and not 2nd. I know the game should evolve, and believe me i love Alchemical Weapons. Just doing a great fuss about renewing epics and killing it with Alchemical weapons is just wrong.
AW have great utility and dps, to at least make dps on older weapons more or less equal or at least only a little weaker.
Yet now difference is big.

[xandariant]

Heck no. Better stuff replaces worse stuff. Better stuff is harder to obtain than worse stuff. Unless we get crazy low t3 ings drop rate, we won't have this.

So to keep it balanced options are:

1) Looow drop rate on t3 ings. Comparable to epic torc ings drop rate (shard?) and such. Would you like that? I wouldn't.

2) Higher drop rates for desert. This problem kinda stands on its own. Either way you look at it, desert items have too low drop rate. It's a bad thing, but is acceptable as long as some of them are the top items in the game. Which is not true anymore. Just epic thornlord stays, the rest is easily replaced. You could still use torc for the recharge but no need to make it epic anymore I guess.

3) Lower powah for the new items. Put them on the same level as the good epics. Make people choose, or give them different abilities so they might want both.

We need people running all epic content, not just the usual few quests/raids, while this update will actually narrow the choices even more.

1. It would make them useless.
2. For sure we need a lot more in here.
3. Not really but it is an option, i would prefer busting more old epics.

"We need people running all epic content, not just the usual few quests/raids, while this update will actually narrow the choices even more" - YES, WE NEED!
Not only new pack.

[fyrst.grok]

I believe his viewpoint is such that with the new standard ... the old standards are eliminated. Which he's correct - they are.

Your options not increased - they be eliminated in such sense... The viewpoint of many player centre on the build not the quest. The result means those epics are no longer worth aquiring and as such not worth running.

Simply put the old content is replaced in value... by item and by scope of questing. I know many a high end player who no longer bothered with house D & P epics for instance - not because they had the items from there, but were nothing of interest due those supposively "epic" items being really poor. So the devs upgraded them to spark some interest and get some payoff of the work which went into those quests - D and P - High end players ran them once or twice then moved on and so others follow suit. Tine is better spent in other places afterall... so has Carnival paid for itself? The work the devs placed in it? Possibly time to pack it up and leave town due lack of draw?

The heavy players started farming those epics due the upcomming changes ... however when the new crafting is available - we all know it will stop completely for these players and the focus in the new content. Is it good/bad, cannot tell, does this make house D & P content worth less ... well O' course. Why would anyone run those after the new content be out? What's more... why would anyone buy them?

Is always a catch 22 ... they wish to make people run the new content, but cannot without reducing the old content's value.

Tokens and fun!

[xandariant]

Tokens and fun!

Sure, but ppl wanted to get something good and now they fell like they were cheated cause that good stuff is just weak in the end, and busting those items was useless in the end.

But fun and tokens are and were there too, just that feeling is bad.

[Ungood]

This is a good point. And when you think about it, it will not make current epic items "worthless" in the sense they won't do damage or what have, it will make them "worthless" in the sense of "Not worth it"

With these new items and weapons coming out, Epic just won't be worth the grind to get as going after the new weapons will take about the same effort (given the drop rate on some of those scrolls and such) and yield a better item as a result.

Good point.

PS: And people compare GS to Epics all the time.

[Tinco]

The question is how far epics (the scroll-seal-shard-baseitem epics) as a concept are still integrated in the future plannings of DDO or if they are more in a 'they are what they are - deal with it' state. The fact that they are not releasing the obviously (almost) done epic Gianthold might be an indication that turbine is not really happy with how epic content works out at the moment and treats it more like a stepchild to 'actual' high level crafting, which would be ToD, Mindsunder, Reavers and Shroud.

If epics should be the pinnacle of difficulty and gear (which is even questionable today) they must be involved in every update process and be closely monitored (as well as readjusted) so that they stay on top of the gear-progression and the difficulty. This doesn't happen and so it's obvious that new items from new more difficult content will eclipse what epic crafting has to offer. For example, some of the best epic items after the update come from ePhiarlarn quests, which are with one exception not even remotely close to hard/elite Amrath. That's for me another indication that at the moment, epic content is an afterthought and not the gauge for any new content/loot at all.

[ag_gair_eos_ard]

Seeing as to how alchemical weapons can become epic, and the raid is harder then any of the boring epics we have right now, I fail to see why they shouldn't be better.

Granted, in a 1~2 years people will run it for favor and forget that those weapons exist. That is the nature of MMOs.

[FengXian]

Seeing as to how alchemical weapons can become epic, and the raid is harder then any of the boring epics we have right now, I fail to see why they shouldn't be better.

Granted, in a 1~2 years people will run it for favor and forget that those weapons exist. That is the nature of MMOs.

Yeah like they forgot about shroud etc...

Oh wait...

[xandariant]

The question is how far epics (the scroll-seal-shard-baseitem epics) as a concept are still integrated in the future plannings of DDO or if they are more in a 'they are what they are - deal with it' state. The fact that they are not releasing the obviously (almost) done epic Gianthold might be an indication that turbine is not really happy with how epic content works out at the moment and treats it more like a stepchild to 'actual' high level crafting, which would be ToD, Mindsunder, Reavers and Shroud.

If epics should be the pinnacle of difficulty and gear (which is even questionable today) they must be involved in every update process and be closely monitored (as well as readjusted) so that they stay on top of the gear-progression and the difficulty. This doesn't happen and so it's obvious that new items from new more difficult content will eclipse what epic crafting has to offer. For example, some of the best epic items after the update come from ePhiarlarn quests, which are with one exception not even remotely close to hard/elite Amrath. That's for me another indication that at the moment, epic content is an afterthought and not the gauge for any new content/loot at all.

Well i think that Turbine used Epics to make ppl have some new way to play and get a great loot.
That way they remade old item and in the same time they killed that chance with release what they planed - alchemical weapons.
The question is why not bust just a bit those old epics so they will be "a bit worse" than new crafting, not "a lot worse".

With scaling of raid bosses and raids themselves that is happening from U7 (or so) - yes, raids were updated a bit in time. I know it first hand since on the same toon in U7 i was able to heal easily hard VOD, and in U10 the same toon with 2 other healers were almost OOM at the end of the quest. Mobs and boss did a whole more dmg and if I'm right it progressed with every update.
So with it we will be forced to go for new alchemical weapons. It will just be "to play or not to play".

That is why many ppl who have many toons and grinded a heck lot of all epics (like me) were happy with items renewal. It make us sure to grind those quests more cause items will be great. Then it all hit the wall called "throw it all and move on to alchemical weapons".

Those old items should be near dps ability of the new ones, since the new ones have a some nice profits attached like: seeker, stun, double strike, +2 exceptional stat.

[xandariant]

That is the nature of MMOs.

If the nature of MMO is to throw once 1-2 year new items to make me throw all previous made items. I will think about stopping playing.
Except for that I'm all good.