Dwarven axes and Bastard swords are more damage than khopesh

[Angelus_dead]

Eons ago, probably before you even knew DDO existed, countless people crunched the numbers and came to the conclusion that in order of DPS:

Khopesh
Dwarven Axe
Bastard Sword

Actually they inserted Scimitar, Kukri, and even Light Pick into the list above Dwarf Axe and Bastard.... it was important to emphasize that Bastard Sword cost a feat and yet had less damage than weapons you already knew.

[Damionic]

I may have thought of something that turns this whole argument on it's head.

This whole khopesh thing is based on a 100% crit/effect proc rate and light weapon penalty with (with the overpowered (or what ever it's called feat that adjusts your off hand weapon to a "light" weapon penalty) with two handed weapons.

But the off hand weapon does not 100% process it's effect does it??
With the tempest line you could get close but that would cost you in squishyness.

The bastard sword has a clear advantage in sword and board AND in TWF (as it is Not built on crit/proc's)

Run your supermaths again taking out the 100% process rate!

[eonfreon]

I may have thought of something that turns this whole argument on it's head.

This whole khopesh thing is based on a 100% crit/effect proc rate and light weapon penalty with (with the overpowered (or what ever it's called feat that adjusts your off hand weapon to a "light" weapon penalty) with two handed weapons.

But the off hand weapon does not 100% process it's effect does it??
With the tempest line you could get close but that would cost you in squishyness.

The bastard sword has a clear advantage in sword and board AND in TWF (as it is Not built on crit/proc's)

Run your supermaths again taking out the 100% process rate!

It nearly equals out because regardless of which weapon you have in your hand the proc rate is the same, all else being equal, such as Feats.

If your offhand chance is 80% than that applies whether you have a Bastard sword, a Khopesh, or a Banana.

BTW, Tempest 2 doesn't come "close" to 100% offhand attacks, it is 100% offhand attacks.

And just so you're clear, the chance to proc is for whether there will be allowed an attack roll, not that a Burst or such will Proc.

From the sound of it I think you're confusing TWF with THF. But I'm not quite sure.

[FrozenNova]

Khopesh versus daxe:
GS khopesh: 1d10, 17-20/x3.
GS daxe: 2d8+2, 19-20/x3.
For d as damage bonus not including dwarven enhancements:
Khopesh over 20 swings: 19(d+5.5)+4*2(d+5.5), or 27d+148.5
Daxe over 20 swings: 19(d+11)+2*2(d+11), or 23d+253
Khopesh over Daxe: 4d-104.5
So... if your base damage bonus excluding daxe enhancements is above 26.125, khopesh is better than daxe. This is practically guranteed. Also notable is that weapon effects such as elemental burst and seeker favor khopesh's superior crit range.
This is assuming the magical phenomenon of everybody hits on a 2. Axes get a slight leg up for toons with fairly low to-hit due to the attack bonus.
It should be noted that for secondary melees such as casual melee bards or clerics, the attack bonus combined with the usually low damage bonus means that daxe is a serious competitor for these fairly weak toons.
Or I suck at maths, one of the two.

Comparison purposes, where d is damage bonus not including racial enhancements:
GS scimitar on elf over 20 swings: 19(d+6.5)+6(d+6.5): 25d+162.5
GS bastard sword over 20 swings: 19(d+9)+4(d+9): 23d+207
GS khopesh over 20 swings: 19(d+5.5)+4*2(d+5.5): 27d+148.5
GS daxe on dwarf over 20 swings: 19(d+11)+2*2(d+11): 23d+253

I'd draw this up into a nice and pretty graph for you but googledocs spreadsheet is rather awkward on that matter.

[Damionic]

So..if I've got this correct if you cannot 100% hit off hand with your weapon then the likelihood of you scoring a "crit" in your off hand goes down even more..

So it would be a better bet to take a higher off hand base damage over the "once in a blue moon" higher crit damage. And I'm assuming your base damage roll + your weapon base proc's (I've never seen a flaming weapon not produce a flaming effect each time you did not score a crit) so base wins out.

[Adken]

Please watch your redaction. Some puntuation would improve a lot your post, i found impossible to read it.

And khopesh have crit 19-20 x3, while bastard swords have crit 19-20 x2 and dwarven axes 20 x3.
A khopesh deals 1d8 per hit, bastard swords and dwarven axes 1d10. If you consider a critical, with max damage without consider bursts or str modifier, you would have:

Khopesh: 10% critical per hit, 24 dmg
Bastard sword: 10% critical per hit, 20 dmg
Dwarven axe: 5% critical per hit, 30 dmg

The difference could seem too little, but if we count the damage modifier it's huge. And improved critical would double the critical chance.

In conclusion, dwarven axe could deal 6 extra damage than a khopesh, but the critical chance is considerably lower.

[aristarchus1000]

DAs and BSs are better... if you have low strength and damage bonuses. The crit modifier results in a multiplicative increase in DPS, so the effect of a good crit profile increases as your character gets better geared.

In your example, you are essentially assuming you have a 10 strength fighter, with a Mastersmith weapon.

That said, there is a break point, I don't recall off hand, it's around 20-30 per hit. For that reason, it is very reasonable to use DAs and BSs for the earlier levels, and hold off using Khopeshes until you are level 20 and can craft your greensteels.

Even better, use a Greataxe/Greatsword for the low levels. The big base damage and easy to-hits make a big difference at low levels.

[voodoogroves]

What remains to be seen is for the now-buffed raid bosses who have fortification increases, etc.

[Meat-Head]

...hitting on a 2, no fortification, all crits confirmed....

hmm... This post right here made me think about u11's increase of boss fort.. Is U11 a stealth pesh nerf?? Interesting thought.

[TheDearLeader]

So..if I've got this correct if you cannot 100% hit off hand with your weapon then the likelihood of you scoring a "crit" in your off hand goes down even more..

So it would be a better bet to take a higher off hand base damage over the "once in a blue moon" higher crit damage. And I'm assuming your base damage roll + your weapon base proc's (I've never seen a flaming weapon not produce a flaming effect each time you did not score a crit) so base wins out.

This is faulty logic.

In truth, the chance of getting an off-hand attack is the same for all three weapons. Because that is a constant value across the weapon types, it can be dismissed.

[eonfreon]

So..if I've got this correct if you cannot 100% hit off hand with your weapon then the likelihood of you scoring a "crit" in your off hand goes down even more..

So it would be a better bet to take a higher off hand base damage over the "once in a blue moon" higher crit damage. And I'm assuming your base damage roll + your weapon base proc's (I've never seen a flaming weapon not produce a flaming effect each time you did not score a crit) so base wins out.

If you cannot 100% hit offhand both your base damage and your chance to score crits go down. Since offhand attacks are not weapon dependant, they balance out and become irrelevant.

Base damage wins in 100% Fort and at lower levels because the crit chance is lower. At less than 100% Fort and at higher crit chance (the Khopesh crits more AND crits higher, if it did one or the other it would be different, but it does both) the Khopesh starts to pull ahead and as more and more bonuses are added, which are multiplied by crits as well, the Khopesh pulls further and further ahead.

It isn't so far ahead that a Bastard Sword is completely left in the dirt. However, they both require a Feat. As a Feat Khopesh does more, so more people go for it, especially when there are free MArtial weapons, such as Scimitar and Rapier that do more damage overall than the Bastard Sword. Is it small? Yes, but they don't cost a Feat.
The real comparison is not just "Bastard Sword vs Khopesh" it's "Bastard Sword or Khopesh vs every other weapon".
Khopesh can more easily justify a Feat than Bastard Sword can.

This is all assuming a TWF. Bastard Sword and DAxe have other benefits that make them better with the THF line of Feats than the TWF line of Feats.

[FrozenNova]

It isn't so far ahead that a Bastard Sword is completely left in the dirt.

Yes. Yes it is.
A dwarf with daxes, an elf with simitars, or anyone with khopeshes, all far surpass bastard sword. See above.

I don't understand why people are trying to model weapons without accepting damage bonus for what it is, a variable.

[~Cavalier9999]

Long story short, this calculation is incorrect because you are only considering the weapons base damage, not any additional sources. Additional sources of damage increase the damage a khopesh does on criticals more than a bastard sword or dwarven axe. Modifiers such as seeker push the khopesh ahead even more.

Sadly, this calculation only works for a character with 10 strength and no other sources of damage increase.

This.

Khopesh outpaces quickly as you gain levels.

[eonfreon]

Yes. Yes it is.
A dwarf with daxes, an elf with simitars, or anyone else with khopeshes, all far surpass bastard sword. See above.

Sorry, I should have quantified that it depends on Race, Class, and Feats as much as anything else. As well as fighting style.

Out of curiousity, I wonder how the Bastard Sword compares to Khopesh if both are used in S&B mode, assuming the Bastard Sword user has THF Feats.

[Seamonkeysix]

How does Bastard Sword stack up vs Khopesh with the THF feats and sword and board?

[Seamonkeysix]

Sorry, I should have quantified that it depends on Race, Class, and Feats as much as anything else. As well as fighting style.

Out of curiousity, I wonder how the Bastard Sword compares to Khopesh if both are used in S&B mode, assuming the Bastard Sword user has THF Feats.

Lol. Same thought, same time. Jinx!

[Aaxeyu]

I may have thought of something that turns this whole argument on it's head.

This whole khopesh thing is based on a 100% crit/effect proc rate and light weapon penalty with (with the overpowered (or what ever it's called feat that adjusts your off hand weapon to a "light" weapon penalty) with two handed weapons.

But the off hand weapon does not 100% process it's effect does it??
With the tempest line you could get close but that would cost you in squishyness.

The bastard sword has a clear advantage in sword and board AND in TWF (as it is Not built on crit/proc's)

Run your supermaths again taking out the 100% process rate!

You are not making much sense at all, but I can tell you that you are completely wrong. Offhand procs are completely irrelevant when comparing weapons.

Any other math genius want to try? This thread is fun.

[Damionic]

Can someone work out the current max "to hit"off hand chance, and the max off hand % chance to score a "crit".

And then work out if the total max base damage for the Bastard Sword (I'm guessing 80% max off hand to hit) is more then the crit damage received on the calculated max off hand % crit on a Khopesh?

[Aashrym]

How does Bastard Sword stack up vs Khopesh with the THF feats and sword and board?

I'd like to see someone take the time to fit arti's in there and forget the shield for a rune arm.

[Seamonkeysix]

I'd like to see someone take the time to fit arti's in there and forget the shield for a rune arm.

Lol. So many variables.

It SEEMS like Bastard Sword would be better than Khopesh in SB due to the glancing blows and whatnot with the GTHF feats, but then again...I have a difficult time helping my 4th grader with algebra.