Insightful Reflexes / Extend / Quicken

[budalic]

lol I dont aim for 40, I aim for maximum, that is 44 necro 43 enchant(with free hypno, 46)

Pale master max is 45 necro, 44 enchant currently.

That being said, if you want to use Shield Mastery and Epic Robe of Shadow, currently you can't go higher than 44. I'm too lazy to TR, but when I do, it's 43 necro/40 everything else and waiting for +4 int tome to fall in my lap for 44/41.

If it isn't obvious, I don't have high opinion on Enchantment.

EDIT: Forgot that WF are at -1 int compared to human.

[Viisari]

Quicken and Insightful Reflex are pretty much tied for the best of those three, so if you have to choose, drop extend. As others have said, IR will greatly improve your survivability in epics for example, so much in fact that if I had to choose between toughness and IR I'd go with IR. Losing toughness would drop me to around 450hp when fully buffed, but losing huge reflex save would mean taking much, much more damage because I'd fail reflex saves much more often instead of only when rolling a 1.

Quicken for a wizard is almost necessary if you're running epics, you can't rely on passing your concentration checks if you get hit and the almost instant cast time is almost as good as not failing spells except when tripped or stunned. Most of the time I die in epics is because I forgot to turn quicken back on after buffing and can't cast fast enough to save my ass

You can do well without quicken, but if things go wrong and you don't have quicken you're unlikely to be able to save the situation, plus you can't do all kinds of fancy things without quicken because you cast too slowly.

After U9 extend is more for convenience than anything else, slightly better for palemasters than others though.

[Viisari]

Pale master max is 45 necro, 44 enchant currently.

46 with completionist, and can pump up to around 50 necro dc with store pots and other a bit rarer stuff. My archmage runs around with 44 necro dc, also have a +4 int tome banked but can't eat it because of TR plans

Also, enchantment isn't god tier anymore, conjuration is almost better, atleast for archmages it is

[danlan]

Pale master max is 45 necro, 44 enchant currently.

That being said, if you want to use Shield Mastery and Epic Robe of Shadow, currently you can't go higher than 44. I'm too lazy to TR, but when I do, it's 43 necro/40 everything else and waiting for +4 int tome to fall in my lap for 44/41.

If it isn't obvious, I don't have high opinion on Enchantment.

EDIT: Forgot that WF are at -1 int compared to human.

I think Fleshy PM vs WF AM has been overly discussed on this forum; do what you like but I still think recon without insightful reflex gives much better survivability than PM even with insightful reflex, unless you choose to splash 2 monks

[balancetraveller]

Reaching 41/42 is actually pretty easy... this is for human
Intelligence:
18 starting
+5 level up
+6 item
+4 enhanchments (+3 wizard, +1 human)
+2 capstone
+2 lich form (if archmage, skip this)
+2 ship buff
+2 yugo pot [*1] (if archmage, tough luck)
+3 exceptional [*2]
+2 tome
__________________________
46 total: Modifier: +18

DC:
10 base
+9 spell level
18 int
+2 feat
+2 item [*3]
+1 Pale master
_____________
42 total

*1 Easy to get: If you have Epic Robe of Shadow, solo Sins of Atrittion elite, Bastion of power hard, New invasion hard; get somebody to do Genesis point elite with, and do ToD normal. If you play on Cannith, send PM - I can help you do theese. (I'm off the game currently, getting back in about a week, though.)
*2 It isn't necessary to do ToD for this, either: Crystal cove is comming back soon - eTH Spyglass has +2 exc int; you can craft yourself GS tier 2 item (so, very cheap) with +1 exceptional int.
*3 Death's touch, Epic Robe of Shadow, Abbot robe, Baelshyrra's sceptre, Cannith crafting - lot's of ways to get this.

Now, if you are WF, you can reach 40 easy on WF archmage, in same way.

Thanks for listing this out; actually all I am still missing is the Yugoloth pot. I got the Spyglass, but I swapped it for Eardweller recently, so I need to find some other place to stuff that back. Also more than halfway through both of my Shroud Mats / Epic Tokens collection for Ex. INT +1 crafting, not there yet though. And got several INT +2 Tomes sitting in my bank (already ate a +1 so eating a +2 now does nothing).

[budalic]

Quicken for a wizard is almost necessary if you're running epics, you can't rely on passing your concentration checks if you get hit and the almost instant cast time is almost as good as not failing spells except when tripped or stunned. Most of the time I die in epics is because I forgot to turn quicken back on after buffing and can't cast fast enough to save my ass

I don't turn it off even when buffing... too lazy. (plus, I keep forgeting to cast some buffs, and then I need to cast them in rather risky situations).

Most embarassing one was when I forgot to enter lich form. So, we have a WF sorc, FvS, Fighter, Rogue (if I recall correctely) and me in party. It's that quest in Red Fens on top of pyramid (I mean, ziggurat). So I leave first few mobs to rest of party, go to first lever, start killing stuff, and notice my hp is dropping. Nevermind, DA will fix it. I kill first group, move to next one, hp dropped even more. I hit NEBurst, nothing. I hit it again after 6 sec, nothing. *ding* Me in chat: Oh, ****! Forgot to enter form. Voice chat: one-minute long burst of laughter.

[danlan]

46 with completionist, and can pump up to around 50 necro dc with store pots and other a bit rarer stuff. My archmage runs around with 44 necro dc, also have a +4 int tome banked but can't eat it because of TR plans

Also, enchantment isn't god tier anymore, conjuration is almost better, atleast for archmages it is

Not sure why you think that way though. The who cojuration school is about one single spell:web and it has its own drawbacks (6s cooldown etc); while enchantment school has so many different options. IMO enchantment spells still dominates most of the epic cc especially with the help of free hypno+irresistable dance, and mass hold provides dps boost that web can't provide.

[budalic]

I think Fleshy PM vs WF AM has been overly discussed on this forum; do what you like but I still think recon without insightful reflex gives much better survivability than PM with insightful reflex, unless you choose to splash 2 monks

I never said PMs were better - IMO, both options are quite equally viable currently, with Pale Master healing and toughness (Death Aura, Boon of undeath, similar stuff) being more sp-efficient if you avoid damage, but worse in 'Oh, ****!' situations; and no practical difference otherwise. Play what you like, though, from what I heard, WF self-healing is quite addictive.

[Viisari]

Not sure why you think that way though. The who cojuration school is about one single spell:web and it has its own drawbacks (6s cooldown etc); while enchantment school has so many different options. IMO enchantment spells still dominates most of the epic cc especially with the help of free hypno+irresistable dance, and mass hold provides dps boost that web can't provide.

There are multiple reasons for this. First, once you're geared it's easy to have good enough enchantment DC that you don't need any boosts there. I can hold and disco stuff in eChrono for example just fine and have nothing except equipment boosting my dc.

Secondly, my web costs 3sp, quickened and heightened which makes it pretty much the most awesome spell I possess. It saves tons of SP because I don't need to use holds or disco much, and in a good group you won't need holds for additional DPS because the melees are quite capable of stunning the mobs themselves. I use hold as more of an panic button when things are out of control, or if there happens to be an especially juicy group of mobs close to eachother and wail is on cooldown.

Now add to this that I hardly even use much CC in epics anymore because I can simply kill almost everything, why would I waste my SP in holds or stuff when a single web does the job just as well, if not better. Pretty much only archers and cats have a high reflex save in epics which means that web also works in many places where hold or disco do not work nearly as well.

Sure free hypno is nice and dance too, but before U9 the best schools for an archmage were enchantment/conjuration, after U9 it's been necromancy/conjuration.

[budalic]

Not sure why you think that way though. The who cojuration school is about one single spell:web and it has its own drawbacks (6s cooldown etc); while enchantment school has so many different options. IMO enchantment spells still dominates most of the epic cc especially with the help of free hypno+irresistable dance, and mass hold provides dps boost that web can't provide.

I think that conjuration is better for archmage because it gets you Web SLA. Taking any other spell focus feat besides 2 necro and 1 conj is a waste, IMO.

Enchantment went from all-around-useful to situationally useful after u9. People didn't Mass hold for CC, they used Mass hold because it increased melee damage by a very big factor. In my opinion, currently, Necro is all-around very useful, with enchantment (for low will-save but high fort enemies, mass hold + damage can be more effective than insta); conjuration (web is kinda most all-around useful CC spell - targets usually weakest save, stops scorps from earth-diving, works on almost everything); evocation (for prismatic spray, which is, IMO, best thing you can cast on drow) and transmutation (Flesh-to-Stone is, IMO, best single-target CC spell in game, especially for enemy mages and clerics. Hold wears off faster) being all somewhat situational, but you can always pick best tool for the job.

[budalic]

Thanks for listing this out; actually all I am still missing is the Yugoloth pot. I got the Spyglass, but I swapped it for Eardweller recently, so I need to find some other place to stuff that back. Also more than halfway through both of my Shroud Mats / Epic Tokens collection for Ex. INT +1 crafting, not there yet though. And got several INT +2 Tomes sitting in my bank (already ate a +1 so eating a +2 now does nothing).

+1 to DC (and ref. saves) is better than everything 'dweller provides besides clicky (and it's clicky, so easy to swap), IMO. You should look into crafting if you want cheap greater focus items, not that hard to craft.

[balancetraveller]

46 with completionist, and can pump up to around 50 necro dc with store pots and other a bit rarer stuff. My archmage runs around with 44 necro dc, also have a +4 int tome banked but can't eat it because of TR plans

Also, enchantment isn't god tier anymore, conjuration is almost better, atleast for archmages it is

Could you elaborate a bit on where the extras come from

+42
... +1 from INT +4 Tome
... +1 from Past Life: Arcane Initiate
... +1 from Completionist

Anything else?

[balancetraveller]

+1 to DC (and ref. saves) is better than everything 'dweller provides besides clicky (and it's clicky, so easy to swap), IMO. You should look into crafting if you want cheap greater focus items, not that hard to craft.

Yep, it's just for convenience to save my time swapping between my standard weapons / Dreamspitter... I'll reconsider that

[sirgog]

I think Fleshy PM vs WF AM has been overly discussed on this forum; do what you like but I still think recon without insightful reflex gives much better survivability than PM even with insightful reflex, unless you choose to splash 2 monks

Evasion isn't worth considering at all.

Insightful Reflexes is taken because with it, you almost never die when 3 Epic Fireball/Chain Lightning etc effects are thrown at you within one or two seconds, even if you weren't at full HP. You only die if you roll two 1s.

Without IR, having three of those effects thrown at you will almost never survive that sort of burst damage. You die for sure unless you roll one or more 15+'s, and if you weren't at 100% hp, you might even need two of those higher rolls.

[Viisari]

Could you elaborate a bit on where the extras come from

+42
... +1 from INT +4 Tome
... +1 from Past Life: Arcane Initiate
... +1 from Completionist

Anything else?

18 starting + 5 levels + 11 gear (epic diabolist 7, rakhir +1 and +2 exceptional, litany +1 profane), +4 enhancements (wizard + human), +2 ship, +2 yugo, +2 capstone, +2 tome.

= 46 int, easily maintained, gets you an int modifier of +18.

That gets our DC before other modifiers to 10 + 9 + 18 = 37

Now lets add wizard past life, focus and greater focus feats, greater focus item, archmage enhancements for main school. That's a total of 1 + 2 + 2 +2 = 7

So that's 44 dc in one school for an archmage. Add +1 dc from +4 int tome, +1 dc from completionist and you'll have 46 dc.

<edit> As a side note, since my secondary school is conjuration and epic Diabolist gives epic conjuration focus, my conju dc is 43 so only one point behind main school. Now I just need to do some cleric past lives to get +3 conju dc for even better webs

Full abishai cookie set gives +4 to all stats iirc, so that's +2 dc, then you have phiarlan, deneith and store pots so it's possible to get your int pretty high in the short term. I don't use any of those though so I don't really know too much about them, I know they're kinda difficult to get (except store pots if you buy them ). Some players do use all of those in speed runs etc, but I've never felt the need for that.

Hope that helps

[balancetraveller]

18 starting + 5 levels + 11 gear (epic diabolist 7, rakhir +1 and +2 exceptional, litany +1 profane), +4 enhancements (wizard + human), +2 ship, +2 yugo, +2 capstone, +2 tome.

= 46 int, easily maintained, gets you an int modifier of +18.

That gets our DC before other modifiers to 10 + 9 + 18 = 37

Now lets add wizard past life, focus and greater focus feats, greater focus item, archmage enhancements for main school. That's a total of 1 + 2 + 2 +2 = 7

So that's 44 dc in one school for an archmage. Add +1 dc from +4 int tome, +1 dc from completionist and you'll have 46 dc.

<edit> As a side note, since my secondary school is conjuration and epic Diabolist gives epic conjuration focus, my conju dc is 43 so only one point behind main school. Now I just need to do some cleric past lives to get +3 conju dc for even better webs

Full abishai cookie set gives +4 to all stats iirc, so that's +2 dc, then you have phiarlan, deneith and store pots so it's possible to get your int pretty high in the short term. I don't use any of those though so I don't really know too much about them, I know they're kinda difficult to get (except store pots if you buy them ). Some players do use all of those in speed runs etc, but I've never felt the need for that.

Hope that helps

Very clear, much thanks I think those House Favor pots will not add anything more though, they are enchantment bonus that will be surpassed by INT +6/+7 items.

Lich form also gives +1 to Necro DC, which I am also not sure whether it's stackable with spell focus feats / items, or not.

[Buggss]

...Lich form also gives +1 to Necro DC, which I am also not sure whether it's stackable with spell focus feats / items, or not.

It will and does as it's a different source type from the others.

[Viisari]

Very clear, much thanks I think those House Favor pots will not add anything more though, they are enchantment bonus that will be surpassed by INT +6/+7 items.

Lich form also gives +1 to Necro DC, which I am also not sure whether it's stackable with spell focus feats / items, or not.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Potion_of_Knowledge

They're alchemical bonuses so they do stack. AFAIK the pots you get from collectibles (iirc Phiarlan and Deneith ones) stack with everything except themselves. They're not easy to get though so most people use them rarely.

<edit> And actually, abishai cookie set is +4 profane bonus to all stats if I remember right, so it probably doesn't stack with litany and epic abishai set bonuses. So you'll only get +3 int from it and not +4 since you already have +1 profane int from litany.

[balancetraveller]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Potion_of_Knowledge

They're alchemical bonuses so they do stack. AFAIK the pots you get from collectibles (iirc Phiarlan and Deneith ones) stack with everything except themselves. They're not easy to get though so most people use them rarely.

Wow, never heard of this thing actually. Thanks for enlightening me

[sweez]

Don't EVER drop insightful reflexes. It's entertaining to see to many casters squish as soon as an Abishai flies over while running to the bank in epic chrono - with insightful reflexes I farm for scrolls all the way to the bank, wailing trash, often with 3-4 abishai on my back