Advice on reflex save and Evasion?

[Grimmerig]

Hi All,

I have a question regarding the necessary reflex saves to make evasion worthwhile, and I thought I would ask the people who who should know best! I am considering splashing 2 levels of rogue on my fighter for evasion, but I hear some mumblings about the numbers I would need to make it worthwhile, and someone mentioned 30, So I guess that 30 is what I should be aiming at then?

Looking at it, what I can hit

Rogue +3
Fighter +6
Dex +6
Alchemical +1
GH +4
Resistance +5
Haste +1

I can get to 26 without much in the way of farming, but guessing from the feedback that that wouldnt be enough. Could also try

Good Luck +2 (need to pull head of good luck, which took me 40 runs on alt)
Madness chain armour +10 (really +5 extra as doesnt stack with resistance)
Luck of Heroes Feat

this would take me to 34 (35 with an exceptional dex +1 if i can pull)

The magic question, as aiming for this with my current build effectively locks me on this armour, would this be good enough?

Thanks for the help!

[WielderofGigantus]

What gives an alchemical bonus to reflex saves?

[Spoprockel]

The eldritch resistance ritual at the stone of change iirc

[Teharahma]

What gives an alchemical bonus to reflex saves?

Alchemical ritual for saves. To be placed on Accesories, Gloves (etc) and Trinkets.

[kuro_zero]

What gives an alchemical bonus to reflex saves?

Stone of Change crafting ritual on appropriate piece of jewlery.

Greensteel accessories can be made with +1 and +2 exceptional reflex saves. Different exceptional bonuses stack.

[FuzzyDuck81]

30+ is the number needed for it to be consistently reliable in most content on normal i believe, but with mid-20s it's still a handy thing to have & will make a noticeable difference.

Situationally (ie in groups) you can get an extra +4 from holy aura, it stacks with everything - in raids especially on my divines i'll always fire it off & i think prayer/recitation stacks too.

Also, it wont show on character sheet (since that reports "all-purpose" saves) but rogue ehancements can boost your actual save vs. traps higher & kensai also gives an extra +1 vs. spells (AoEs like fireballs etc) per tier too.

Depending on race you can boost it a little higher through other enhancements - halflings for consistent ones or half elf/human through action boosts for situational use.

[kuro_zero]

Both prayer and recitation provide luck bonuses so will not stack with head of good fortune.

[Grimmerig]

Hi all,

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it, and sounds like it may be a viable option after all, now I just need to farm mats for the madness rituals

[fabhpk]

Don't forget that uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge gives you a nice boost on your reflex saves.

[Ystradmynach]

Since we on the subject, how much would be too much reflex save, where it ceases to make a difference because you'll save on anything but a 20 anyway?

[.Revenga.]

With a reflex save of 26, evasion will surely make a good difference in the damage you take. 30+ is a nice number to have and from 40 the usefulness of your high score will only be notable in specific content.

Since we on the subject, how much would be too much reflex save, where it ceases to make a difference because you'll save on anything but a 20 anyway?

Really depends on the content, the highest reflex saves in the game to my knolledge are monastry of the scorpion on elite, and epic wiz king. Those seem to be 70+ checks.

For most content you'll be happy enough with a score in the 30's.

[Feithlin]

According to ddo wiki, the spells with Ref saves from elite Horoth have DCs of 28+ (DBFB), 24-33 (Sunburst), and 30-36 (Meteor swarm), so aiming for 30+ seems an effective value.

To increase your save, I can think about:
* Good luck (+2 luck), which wouldn't stack with the other luck bonus you mentioned.
* Superior parrying (+4 insight) from epic Swashbuckler or epic Chimera's Fang (note that the insight bonus from GS weapons only adds to AC, not to saves), or Greater Parrying (+2 insight) from random/crafted weapons (and/or shield for craft).
* Paladin aura (+1-5).
* Essence of betrayal (+2 stacking dex).
* Stalwart defender stance (+3 for SD III) or Kensei Ref save bonus against magic (+3 for Kensei III).

I don't think Holy aura (cleric spell) stacks with the resistance item, since both are resistance bonuses, but I can't tell for sure.
Note that using a medium or heavy armor would prohibit the use of the Evasion feat, so the chain of madness wouldn't be of much help if it isn't made of mithral (I don't have the pack, so I can't tell). Splashing paladin instead of rogue wouldn't give you Evasion, but would provide higher saves (+ Cha mod. to all saves, +1 from aura).

[Enoach]

Additionaly if you go with one of the sets of armor/robes out of the Maddness Chain you can craft a +15 to reflex which won't stack with the resistance item so would only net you about +10 more to your reflex.

That would bring you to about 36 from your original numbers. I believe there is one set of light armor and Robes that would allow for evasion.

[mujadaddy]

THIS is the thread for which I was looking! I framed the question thusly in my first my.ddo blog post:

“Does regular (Rogue 2) Evasion make that much of a difference to how much damage you find yourself taking?”

If the answer is "Yes" (and it looks like it really, really is if you can maintain a reasonable Reflex save), then I'll take a level of Rogue at 9th (grabbing Improved Crit as a Fighter first) and 14th (grabbing Kensai II first). Does this Level Progression order make sense? For a Fighter 18/Rogue 2, are there any Feats (I'm pretty aware of all my Enhancement options) that I might have missed taking that are relevant to Rogue 2 and/or Evasion?

Thanks.

[Cloista]

Take first Rogue level at level 1 for the massive boost in the amount of skillpoints it will net you.

[karl_k0ch]

Take first Rogue level at level 1 for the massive boost in the amount of skillpoints it will net you.

Not applicable if you splash rogue only for Evasion and UMD, and ignore Traps, Locks, Sneak et al. If doing the former, taking the rogue levels at a point where you can dump 2*(8+Intmod) skill points into UMD will yield more than the 4 + (8+Intmod) skill points which are granted if you take Rogue at 1.

[Feithlin]

Not applicable if you splash rogue only for Evasion and UMD, and ignore Traps, Locks, Sneak et al. If doing the former, taking the rogue levels at a point where you can dump 2*(8+Intmod) skill points into UMD will yield more than the 4 + (8+Intmod) skill points which are granted if you take Rogue at 1.

It's not bad to take the 1st rogue level even in this case. For example, on my tank (F18/Ro2), I took 4 ranks in the trap skills, and with the right gear/buffs, I was still able to disable traps in vale quests on norm at level. It can be a nice boost to xp.
You should also try to put some points in picklock too if possible. You don't need that much to do most of the important doors in the game. However, if you're only interested in getting max UMD, you're right: it's better to wait for level X to take the 1st rogue level (X = Int mod. + 5) and level Y for the 2nd (Y = 2 * Int mod. + 13), so you increase your UMD skill as much as possible on a 1:1 ratio.

[Jaid314]

For a Fighter 18/Rogue 2, are there any Feats (I'm pretty aware of all my Enhancement options) that I might have missed taking that are relevant to Rogue 2 and/or Evasion?

Thanks.

i've heard good things about http://ddowiki.com/page/Hamstring on some enemies.

[mujadaddy]

i've heard good things about http://ddowiki.com/page/Hamstring on some enemies.

"Unlike Trip and Stunning Blow, no save is made against this effect"
That's good!
"If it hits"
Not too worried about that.
"the target's movement rate is reduced by 50% for 12 seconds"
That's ...supposed to be good? Surely, it's decent for reducing ping-pong aggro effects on the rest of the party, and forgive my low-level perspective, but is there a lot of "trash mobs racing around from friend to friend" problem that makes Hamstring that valuable? Good in a pinch if a friend has to back out of melee in a hurry, I suppose is the thinking?

On the main topic, though, it doesn't seem like there's any disagreement that Evasion is worth missing a capstone and worth delaying 2 levels of one's main class. Is this correct?

[Grace_ana]

"the target's movement rate is reduced by 50% for 12 seconds"
That's ...supposed to be good? Surely, it's decent for reducing ping-pong aggro effects on the rest of the party, and forgive my low-level perspective, but is there a lot of "trash mobs racing around from friend to friend" problem that makes Hamstring that valuable? Good in a pinch if a friend has to back out of melee in a hurry, I suppose is the thinking?

IIRC it affects ALL movement. If you've ever been hit with hamstring in melee, you'll notice you move 50% slower. It's like the opposite of haste, if that makes more sense. So if your opponent is hamstrung, you can whack on him twice as much before he manages to get a swing in. It's not just running-around movement.

But, I could be wrong.