Why create zerg groups when you can't even zerg?

[Ilindith]

I'm sorry, I can't agree here.

1) It was on hard. Traps start to hurt on hard.
If traps on hard kill you in ONE shot, get more HP
2) Not everyone has evasion. A perfectly zerg worthy toon may still have to be careful with certain quest traps. If they don't expect them there can be trouble (see point 3).
See answer to 3, they had no reason to not expect them.
3) You apparently disabled them the first time. Despite your comment about them not giving XP you didn't actually say you weren't disabling them the second time. They had a reasonable expectation they would be disabled and not expecting them they could have run through at less than full HP.
Oh I DID say I was not going to bother with them because they didn't give exp. Right after disabling them on the first run. NO ONE COMPLAINED about it.
4) While generally avoidable, lag will always be an issue. I still get hit about 1 in 5 tries. This is an MMO, always assume someone in the party has lag (zerging or not).
So I should be blamed if they lag?
5) And how much effort does it really take to disable the traps (and yes, I play a rogue). For the 30 seconds of work and the simple peace of mind I'd do it (on hard or higher at least. Admittedly for normal any zerg worthy toon should be able to make their way through).
ZERG RUN. On a quest that takes 5 minutes, why waste one on the traps if they don't give exp? I'm not there to babysit them, not my problem if they die somewhere EVERYONE ELSE IN THE GROUP was able to get through easily.

Answers in green

[Kages]

Amen +1

[Sheep_Stealer]

1) It was on hard. Traps start to hurt on hard.

If traps on hard kill you in ONE shot, get more HP

So I just checked it out. On hard, if you're mildly unlucky and get hit at the beginning of the traps you have to make 4 saves. Each hit does approximated ~65 points of damage on a failed save, so we're looking at 260 possible points of damage. Lets assume the gimp in question was a 15th level Wizard (running at level). And let's assume he has 20 con, toughness, 2x racial toughness, a Minos, and a greater false life item. That gives (barring any stupid mistakes on my part):

20 Heoric Durability
60 Level (15 x 4 )
75 Con (15 x 5)
18 Toughness
20 Minos
20 Racial Toughness (x2)
30 Greater False life
-----------------------
243 Hitpoints.

Even if we assume he's running +1 level that still only gives him 252 hitpoints. And quite frankly, short of a bunch of greensteel and buffs I think that's a pretty generous take on available hitpoints.

So failing all 4 checks, you're likely dead, or incapacitated at best.

Now, my experiments put the DC for the traps on hard somewhere around 31 (my 32 passed, by 30 failed). A 15 (or 16th) level wizard has a reflex save of +5. Even throwing in a +3 dex bonus and a +5 resistance bonus this guy isn't saving a whole lot (unless he has insightful reflexes which isn't a given). In otherwords 4 fails is quite possible.

And that's if you're mildly unlucky. If you're really unlucky, and get hit in the middle of the trap you have to make 12 saves. If you're a wizard without evasion you're toast (regardless of saving). Hell, even a 20th level wizard is probably toast in that situation.

So no, "get more hitpoints" is not a good argument. If you miss the timing (for whatever reason) you are in for a world of hurt if you're a wizard.

3) You apparently disabled them the first time. Despite your comment about them not giving XP you didn't actually say you weren't disabling them the second time. They had a reasonable expectation they would be disabled and not expecting them they could have run through at less than full HP.

Oh I DID say I was not going to bother with them because they didn't give exp. Right after disabling them on the first run. NO ONE COMPLAINED about it.

You weren't clear on this in your first post. If you told them then fine.

4) While generally avoidable, lag will always be an issue. I still get hit about 1 in 5 tries. This is an MMO, always assume someone in the party has lag (zerging or not).

So I should be blamed if they lag?

If 30 seconds of your time would have made lag moot then ya.

Sure, the trap can be timed, if you're unlucky though it can also be very dangerous. Why not be a team player and just remove the problem.

ZERG RUN. On a quest that takes 5 minutes, why waste one on the traps if they don't give exp? I'm not there to babysit them, not my problem if they die somewhere EVERYONE ELSE IN THE GROUP was able to get through easily.

Well leaving them there cost you 10% so how is that for a reason?

That said, maybe the guy in question really was some really gimped barbarian with 100 hitpoints. My point though is just because you're zerging doesn't mean you can't take some effort to help out your teammates.

[Ilindith]

So I just checked it out. On hard, if you're mildly unlucky and get hit at the beginning of the traps you have to make 4 saves. Each hit does approximated ~65 points of damage on a failed save, so we're looking at 260 possible points of damage. Lets assume the gimp in question was a 15th level Wizard (running at level). And let's assume he has 20 con, toughness, 2x racial toughness, a Minos, and a greater false life item. That gives (barring any stupid mistakes on my part):

20 Heoric Durability
60 Level (15 x 4 )
75 Con (15 x 5)
18 Toughness
20 Minos
20 Racial Toughness (x2)
30 Greater False life
-----------------------
243 Hitpoints.

Even if we assume he's running +1 level that still only gives him 252 hitpoints. And quite frankly, short of a bunch of greensteel and buffs I think that's a pretty generous take on available hitpoints.

So failing all 4 checks, you're likely dead, or incapacitated at best.

Now, my experiments put the DC for the traps on hard somewhere around 31 (my 32 passed, by 30 failed). A 15 (or 16th) level wizard has a reflex save of +5. Even throwing in a +3 dex bonus and a +5 resistance bonus this guy isn't saving a whole lot (unless he has insightful reflexes which isn't a given). In otherwords 4 fails is quite possible.

And that's if you're mildly unlucky. If you're really unlucky, and get hit in the middle of the trap you have to make 12 saves. If you're a wizard without evasion you're toast (regardless of saving). Hell, even a 20th level wizard is probably toast in that situation.

So no, "get more hitpoints" is not a good argument. If you miss the timing (for whatever reason) you are in for a world of hurt if you're a wizard.



You weren't clear on this in your first post. If you told them then fine.



If 30 seconds of your time would have made lag moot then ya.

Sure, the trap can be timed, if you're unlucky though it can also be very dangerous. Why not be a team player and just remove the problem.



Well leaving them there cost you 10% so how is that for a reason?

That said, maybe the guy in question really was some really gimped barbarian with 100 hitpoints. My point though is just because you're zerging doesn't mean you can't take some effort to help out your teammates.

Zerg runs are supposed to be hand holding runs now? God what happened to this game.

[Phidius]

Zerg runs are supposed to be hand holding runs now? God what happened to this game.

You gotta put your behind in the past. I mean, put the past behind you.

Zerg on.

[knightgf]

I get blamed for not removing them.
"They give exp why didn't you remove them?" No, they don't.
"We lose exp when people die" Not my fault if you can't avoid them, it's easy to do. For someone putting up a zerg party I'd expect you to stay alive more than that.
"we have slow internet (chinese guys)" Oh I was supposed to know that?
"we were supposed to know you would not remove traps?" Yes you should when I told you they didn't give any exp and that they can be EASILY avoided and that I'm ----> IN A ZERG GROUP

Here's a few more you forgot:

• "ZOMG there's blade traps in here!?"
• "I can't move fast enough."
• "I just got one-shotted by a blade trap!"
• "I can actually dodge the blade traps?"

[sweez]

Lets assume the gimp in question was a 15th level Wizard (running at level). And let's assume he has 20 con

Lol wut? 18 starting con if human, 16 if elf/drow, 18/20 if WF.

So, in case of human, 18 base +2 tome + 6 item = 26 con.

060 (wizard)
120 (con)
020 (heroic durability)
038 (toughness feat + enhancements)
020 (toughness item)
030 (gfl)
------------------------------------
288 HP unbuffed

Now throw in some standard buffage, like rage spell and +2 con ship buff (+4 total con for 2 more brackets), 288 + 30 = 318 self-buffed (more if it's a PM). Even without the ship buff you're breaking 300. If you're zerg xp farming a quest on hard, you're probably gonna have a GS hp item for 45 more, bringing you past the 350 mark, easily (and 10 more from argo favor, if you're doing necro4 on hard you might as well elite out GH ). There's absolutely no need to do trap heavy quests on hard at-level on a first life toon, unless you want favor which you can get at 20 anyway.

Now, my experiments put the DC for the traps on hard somewhere around 31 (my 32 passed, by 30 failed). A 15 (or 16th) level wizard has a reflex save of +5. Even throwing in a +3 dex bonus and a +5 resistance bonus this guy isn't saving a whole lot (unless he has insightful reflexes which isn't a given). In otherwords 4 fails is quite possible.

I'll take your word for the DCs, although I'll say this - you can make a lot of saves in the epic desert with low-mid 30 reflex. However, your 15th level human wizard will have how much int at that level? He'll start with 18, he'll eat a +2 tome at 7, he'll put 3 level-up points into int (at 4, 8, 12), so he's at 23. +6 item brings him to 29, +3 from enhancements 32. This, again, assuming he's not a TR (why is he zerging at-level on hard again?), in which case he'll have additional +3 from a GS weapon (and he'll take +1 human to even it out, bringing him to 36).

05 (wizard)
11 (int mod, insightful reflexes should be DEFINITELY taken at least for leveling, although I'd never drop them myself)
05 (resistance item)
04 (gh)
01 (good luck - you should at least have voice of the master if not the hogf)
01 (stone of change ritual)
01 (haste - our caster can cast haste, right?)
---------------------------------------------
28 self-buffed, so you're making saves on what, 3?.

Now add ship buffs (+2 int, +1 to all saves), you're at 30. HoGF or someone with recitation - you're at 31. TR - you're at 33. See where this is going?

Yes, the wizard in my examples is well built and well geared. Here's a question for you though - if he's not well geared, not well built, what exactly is he doing in zerg at-level quests on hard?

Then again, we're assuming the guy in question has a broken space-bar key as well

[Aashrym]

75 Con (15 x 5)

20 CON is low for a lot of wizards at that level. I start with 18 or 20, would have a +2 tome, and a +CON item. More CON from enhancements if available. 24-28 CON is an easy goal for most wizards at that level.

I like Dwarven PM's and starting with a 20 and a tome and dwarven constitution II and rage spell I'm at 26 before the CON item or ship buffs.

30 CON would be 150 hp. Just sayin.

[Aashrym]

stuff

Beat me to it.

[Sheep_Stealer]

Lol wut? 18 starting con if human, 16 if elf/drow, 18/20 if WF.

If a drow wants to start with 20 int (a common enough thing) the highest Con they can have 1st TR is 15 (16 on a second TR). So assume 16 + 2 + 6 for 24. Add in rage for 26 so you hit 288. Not everyone is in a level 61 guild so a +2 con shrine is unlikely. GS isn't a given either, particularly on a 1st TR.

So yes, 288 is reasonable. That puts him barely above the average unsaved damage. A couple hits from the archers and you're getting dangerously close. Have bad luck and get hit in the middle and you're still toast.

I'll take your word for the DCs, although I'll say this - you can make a lot of saves in the epic desert with low-mid 30 reflex. However, your 15th level human wizard will have how much int at that level? He'll start with 18, he'll eat a +2 tome at 7, he'll put 3 level-up points into int (at 4, 8, 12), so he's at 23. +6 item brings him to 29, +3 from enhancements 32.

This is assuming he has insightful reflexes. Not every wizard is going to take that. There are plenty of good builds that don't take it. Take out the +11 and your back below 50% save.

This, again, assuming he's not a TR (why is he zerging at-level on hard again?), in which case he'll have additional +3 from a GS weapon (and he'll take +1 human to even it out, bringing him to 36).

I really wish I'd played this game a few years back because greensteel was apparently a lot easier to build back then. I've run over 50 shrouds and have barely enough ingredients to build one tier III item. Just because somebody wants to run a quest quickly for XP doesn't mean they've got umpteen previous lives before them and a bank full of greensteel.

Now add ship buffs (+2 int, +1 to all saves), you're at 30. HoGF or someone with recitation - you're at 31. TR - you're at 33. See where this is going?

Yes a +1 to saves is fairly common but a +2 int shrine is a level 58 guild. Again not everyone is a member of a higher level guild. HoGF? I've run reavers over 40 times and never seen one drop (for anyone in the group). Maybe I'm unlucky, but I can only go by my own experience. As for recitation, not a chance, remember nobody in this party helps each other.

Yes, the wizard in my examples is well built and well geared. Here's a question for you though - if he's not well geared, not well built, what exactly is he doing in zerg at-level quests on hard?

Not just well geared, but exceptionally well geared. And perhaps he's trying to run through lives as quickly as possible so he can make a well built toon (get a couple of pluses to spell pen and DC). This is probably easier than doing the shroud and epic grind for better gear.

And even your well built and well geared toon would likely die if unlucky and got hit in the middle. 12 saved rolls is still ~390 points of damage.

I just don't understand this everyman for themselves mentality. Yes it was a zerg run, but you had to run past the hardest hitting trap in the place anyway, why not disable it. Hell, even disabling just one of the first two trap boxes significantly reduces the chances of death. At no point am I suggesting hand holding. If simply disabling the single most dangerous trap in quest is considered hand holding then I'm definitely playing the wrong game.

Then again, we're assuming the guy in question has a broken space-bar key as well

So you've never ever missed a jump? Or misstimed a move? You've probably never died either. I congratulate you on your exceptional gamemanship and will strive to be as good as you in the future.

[jaegarnel]

I'm sorry, this trap is supposed to be dangerous?
Then when I simply ran through it on elite on my capped wizard (and got hit near the middle IIRC) why did I not die? I've got only 377 hp on him, after all.

When I did the same quest at level on elite on my cleric, I didn't even get hit simply through good timing, and that was without haste, jump or anything else in the way of mobility than 25% striding boots.
If you pay the least bit of attention, you're not going to take any damage from it.


And all this talk about the trap is missing the point anyway. If the leader was still at the trap while the OP was at the end of the quest, then he was already failing very badly at zerging (and therefore had no business posting a zerg LFM), even if he hadn't died in it.

[pHo3nix]

I really wish I'd played this game a few years back because greensteel was apparently a lot easier to build back then. I've run over 50 shrouds and have barely enough ingredients to build one tier III item. Just because somebody wants to run a quest quickly for XP doesn't mean they've got umpteen previous lives before them and a bank full of greensteel.

Zerging is not just gear, but sure it help. If you want to zerg you must be able to. It's already bad to join zerging lfm and dieing at the first 2 mobs, but putting up a zerging lfm and then complaining people are zerging too fast for you is ridiculous.

When you zerg you are not going to wait for the rogue, you are supposed to be able to avoid/survive traps on the way, otherwise zerging the quest is not your buisness

[Lyzernn]

Just leave them and move on.

People shouldn't make these kinds of comments. I want people to make threads about their experiences in quests and parties because it's fun to read =D.

So don't just leave them and move on. RANT MY FRIENDS, RANT!

[Neverwinterer]

AFAIK zerging groups don't do avoidable traps unless they are fatal. (2 years pugging experience)

Maybe they meant something different for "zerging". We DDOers believe that zergs are just fast, but they are much much more than plain fast.

Zergs hatch from eggs. Maybe some egg hatching was expected from the players.
Zergs exude mucks and other kind of liquids out of their exoskeletons. Did you wear (as a player) an appropriate exoskeleton?. Where you exuding enough?
Zergs evolve through the gameplay. Did you notice any evolving on the other players? Maybe you should have evolved a bit, or at least should have sharpened your nails or grown out some antennas.
Finaly, Zergs bury themselves in the ground. You should have buried yourself, or at least be playing in a room below ground level.

I recommend everyone (in the mood for some humour) to ask what "zerg group" means, and be sure to accomplish with the hatching, exuding, evolving and burying if asked for.

[Solmage]

blah blah I simply don't get the point of zerging runs

If you can't handle zerging, which by the way means you do not stop to disable anything (if traps get disabled it's for exp and the rest of the group is long past them finishing the quest while the rogue handles that as a team effort) then there's a simple solution: Don't zerg.

[Seamonkeysix]

Maybe they thought ZERG meant:

Z-ero
E-xperience
R-andom
G-roup

[Zachski]

So we've got people zerging in non-zerg groups (This happened to me once, though I assume it happens more often than that)

And now we've got people creating zerg groups and not zerging.

Fantastic XD