Why wing clipping is such a big deal.

[Fomori]

I did not buy it, I worked hard to get the favor to unlock it.

Lets not kid ourselves. There is zero HARD WORK that goes into getting favor. Favor equals doing various quests on various difficulty levels which simply equals time sink. If you said 'I spent a lot of time' then yeah, I agree 100%, but please dont insult people that actually do "hard work", by cheapening that term.

[~sumptingwong]

Since the nerf is happening the "OP" will go away so you might as well stop posting on the thread then just so you can feel smart, hope you guys have fun not getting anymore free flagging for ToD as well as Elite Favor Runs in amrath or free end chests to pull mats for boots or larges. My Favored Soul only can do it mana pot free with the wings but it doesn't matter anymore. Guess will have to drink pots to help others now. Thank you for supporting the nerf guys, really appreciate it and the people I helped/help probably do as well.

[Rheebus]

I've always been sad seeing FvS flying around the marketplace while my monk is limited to just a few Abundant Steps until I am completely out of ki -- in public areas where I can't regen ki quickly. I am not sure what the ability to get from A to B much faster than others in public areas is worth, but the FvS is already a very powerful class and doesn't need unlimited public leaps to lure players to it.

The other way I think this could be solved is by making it actually cost prohibitive to use in terms of mana. Make it cost 20sp. Folks won't use it just to get from A to B quicker in quests anymore. I am sure this has already been mentioned in the thread, but I just can't read any more of the posts...

Its a change that some people hate and some people think is good. IF the Devs see all the FvS disappear as a result, things will change again.

[Fomori]

Since the nerf is happening the "OP" will go away so you might as well stop posting on the thread then just so you can feel smart, hope you guys have fun not getting anymore free flagging for ToD as well as Elite Favor Runs in amrath or free end chests to pull mats for boots or larges. My Favored Soul only can do it mana pot free with the wings but it doesn't matter anymore. Guess will have to drink pots to help others now. Thank you for supporting the nerf guys, really appreciate it and the people I helped/help probably do as well.

*yawn*

Cool story bro...

If you really think that people only rode coattails to get completions then you need to learn to the play the real game. Healers are only NEEDED in the several raids/epics in game where damage output is so great you cannot survive more than several seconds without healing support. Also that is "healers", that means clerics/bards/umd/splashes/fvs/etc. Some are more efficient than others but thats the beauty of DDO, we dont have to be cookie cutter to succeed.

Perhaps you are simply saying that the wing nerf nerfs less skilled players, and that you group regularly with said less skilled players. In that case then I apologize for calling you out because it seemed like you thought you were important.

[Chai]

All of this should be painfully obvious to anyone with any endgame experience, but let's get this straigth anyway.

The fact that casters can solo endgame stuff is *ONLY* relevant when scroll farming. That's it.

While you may think only the stuff optimized endgamers are interested in is relevant, you are incorrect. The entire game is relevant.

If you want completions, you don't solo, it's always slower to solo than do things with a good group. Pre U9 the standard epic party was 4 melee dps, a cc caster and and a healer.

This is also incorrect. The good soloers get stuff done faster in this game many times than a full group would.

The reason for this was mainly deathward, and partly because casters didn't have any good ways to deal sustained boss dps. All of this changed with U9 when the deathward was removed and dot spells were added to the game along with the elemental savants. Pre U9 melees were relevant ONLY because of epic mob deathward and unsustainable caster dps.

Melee is relevant in all case scenarios. Second best option =/= irrelevant.

But none of those apply anymore, deathward is gone and casters have good sustainable boss dps, savants have excellent sustainable boss dps. This affected raids too, because dmg/sp -ratio for casters went up. A lot.

Yes pre U9 casters could do epics without melees, but because of autocrit it was better and faster to just hold stuff and let the melees beat them up. And now hold effects damage spells too.

Casters gain power and now all of a sudden.....

With all of this in mind, it is VERY clear that melees have indeed become completely useless.

Incorrect. Maybe you Ricky Bobby, have been taught that if you aint first, yer last, but the rest of us clearly understand that second best option =/= completely useless.

It is also very clear why you don't see full caster groups often (you do see them though, just yesterday I joined eDQ1 that was full of casters and was only looking for casters): majority of the classes in this game are melee classes, so there are more melee toons in this game than there are casters. And for every good caster there are ten good melees. It's very simple really. Add to this that many pugs still think that casters are bad dps, and the result is lots of pug groups looking for just that one caster.

It has nothing to do with how many classes are inthe game. It has to do with the fact that most dont share your extreme opinion that if some other class can outDPS yours, that makes you completely useless. You are bantering the extremist stance here and telling us its correct for everyone.

You can't conclude that melees were always as useless as they are now, because things are completely different now from what they were pre U9.

I can using your logic, because casters were always better than melee in 97% of all content. The only place melee were relevant (your logic) is boss DPS. Everywhere else casters owned. Then epics came along, and players whose mains were melee were perfectly satisfied to have casters play slave to having a CC DC of 40 or dont join groups. Now that they are worth more than that, this all of a sudden translates to "melee is useless"? Im afraid not.

I don't know if you're just trolling or truly blind or whatever, but these are not really opinions, they are the state of the endgame right now.

Train stops again. These kinds of statements made toward those who disagree with you clearly do indicate something, but its not what you think they indicate.

U9 removed the restrictions casters had in epics and added the means to deal sustainable boss dps, it is these things that made melees useless. I don't give a **** about soloing because that's not how you get your epic gear (excluding scrolls, and yeah I've soloed stuff for kicks), you get your epic gear by completing the quests in a group, and right now the only reason to take melees in those groups is because you don't want to wait for a full caster group.

<edit> Oh, and dots need a "nerf", they need a fortitude save for half damage which I suspect will come in U12. Probably the only reason it wasn't in U11 was all this whining about wings, nerfing DP at the same time would probably have led into mass suicides or something by all these favored souls.

Of course, you realize here that you just said everything that youre not interested in "needs a nerf", along with everything that is better boss DPS than melee needs a nerf. I dont agree with you. Nerfs arent the answer. Nerfing everyone else who outperforms you isnt the answer. Saying something is useless because its second best numberwise isnt evidence, its overexageration. People arent trolling simply because they disagree with you. People who play the game differently than you arent irrelevant. Your statements that your vision of the game is the only correct vision and everyone else is blind or trolling smacks of oberoni, lock stock and two smoking barrels.

Now lets all go roll up some water savants, because apparently everything else is useless.

[Viisari]

Of course, you realize here that you just said everything that youre not interested in "needs a nerf", along with everything that is better boss DPS than melee needs a nerf. I dont agree with you.

Not interested in? My main is a wizard, and I abuse the **** out of dots atm, they are way too strong and require a fortitude save for half damage. This will also make blob builds useless like they should be, when you can base your build on just one spell something is clearly broken.

I advocate for general game balance, sometimes that calls for nerfs and sometimes that calls for buffs, that's a simple fact. A game like this cannot survive without changing constantly with new content and balancing old things, and you can't change things by just buffing stuff constantly, because that path is way more dangerous than nerfing is. There has to be a balance between nerfs and buffs, both have their places, but you seem to think nerfing as always bad which I find very strange.

This is also incorrect. The good soloers get stuff done faster in this game many times than a full group would.

Funny how I don't see any solo speed runs done then, for some strange reasons all speed runs seem to be done in groups with excellent players. Stop playing with noobs and go try questing with some good players maybe? It's simply not possible for one person to do things as fast as a good group can, even when taking dungeon scaling into account, a good group will *ALWAYS* beat a good soloer in time AND efficiency.

<edit> Unless you're specificly refering to noob groups that have no clue about anything, which makes the whole comparison even more silly. Compare players and groups of equal skill.

And yes, melees can get stuff done, but the thing is, casters will do that stuff better and faster and are likely to be self-sufficient, thus given the choice of taking another good caster or another good melee into your party the caster will almost always be a better choice. You don't think that's broken at all? There are a few, very specific roles left that *might* require melees (they've been done by casters...), but like for every rule, those are the exceptions.

When I see barbs with pretty much all the gear you can have in this game start piking in epics because they feel like they're useless and not needed, I do indeed start thinking that maybe something isn't right, and maybe something might need changing.

[pHo3nix]

Melee is relevant in all case scenarios. Second best option =/= irrelevant.

^This.

Not the best =/= useless, otherwise why would people roll non-wf casters or non-horc melees?

As long as A can complete anyway, who cares if B is better than A?

I think a lot of melees are getting mad cause they are no more the kings in epic, so they are more than happy when casters get nerfed, in the hope they will be very important again. Just play and have fun, the same mass hold + beat down strategy that worked pre u9 is still doable, just find a caster who's willing to be your slave for some quests

[Chai]

Not interested in? My main is a wizard, and I abuse the **** out of dots atm, they are way too strong and require a fortitude save for half damage. This will also make blob builds useless like they should be, when you can base your build on just one spell something is clearly broken.

Oberoni.

I advocate for general game balance, sometimes that calls for nerfs and sometimes that calls for buffs, that's a simple fact. A game like this cannot survive without changing constantly with new content and balancing old things, and you can't change things by just buffing stuff constantly, because that path is way more dangerous than nerfing is. There has to be a balance between nerfs and buffs, both have their places, but you seem to think nerfing as always bad which I find very strange.

D&D is not a balanced game. Every attempt I have ever seen to balance it has thrown it further out of balance. When they nerf wings FvS will learn to tank. What then? Nerf DOTs? Oh yeah, youre already on that train - nerf it to oblivion in the name of "game balance". I dont agree.

Funny how I don't see any solo speed runs done then, for some strange reasons all speed runs seem to be done in groups with excellent players. Stop playing with noobs and go try questing with some good players maybe? It's simply not possible for one person to do things as fast as a good group can, even when taking dungeon scaling into account, a good group will *ALWAYS* beat a good soloer in time AND efficiency.

Not possible in the 2% of all content you claim is relevant. Possible everywhere else. If the game is three huge devils, a dragon, and a Merilith you would be correct. Since it isnt, you are not.

And yes, melees can get stuff done, but the thing is, casters will do that stuff better and faster and are likely to be self-sufficient, thus given the choice of taking another good caster or another good melee into your party the caster will almost always be a better choice. You don't think that's broken at all? There are a few, very specific roles left that *might* require melees (they've been done by casters...), but like for every rule, those are the exceptions..

I dont think melee being the second best option makes them useless. The overexagerators banter themselves into a frenzy claiming this, and I /grin each time I read it. Then they claim only a sliver of the entire game is relevant.

I dont agree that 99% of the game should be balanced on what the top end gamers are capable of.

When I see barbs with pretty much all the gear you can have in this game start piking in epics because they feel like they're useless and not needed, I do indeed start thinking that maybe something isn't right, and maybe something might need changing.

In DDO gear =/= good player. Below average player is below average. Epics are easy for everyone nowdays so if someone is piking epics, LOL. I know barbarians, fighters, and casters who ROFLpwn all of this content. I also know players of all of the same classes who cant hang, regardless if they are playing a caster or melee. Play quality doesnt have a class associated with it. It doesnt have gear associated with it either, because the toughest content in this game isnt even where the best gear drops. Vellah is a loot pinata, and farming DPS increasing gear is time consumption oriented, not challenging.

[Viisari]

Not possible in the 2% of all content you claim is relevant. Possible everywhere else. If the game is three huge devils, a dragon, and a Merilith you would be correct. Since it isnt, you are not.

I believe we are playing very different games, if you truly think that then there's not much more to say here.

You did read the part about A GOOD GROUP, as in, not a group full of noobs, right?

[Chai]

I believe we are playing very different games, if you truly think that then there's not much more to say here.

You did read the part about A GOOD GROUP, as in, not a group full of noobs, right?

Sorry, I dont buy the statement that if I dont agree with you Im somehow playing with noobs, or that Im trolling, as you have clearly tried to make a case for.

I also dont agree with nerfs to balance the game, because the end result is less balance, not more. Theres a pretty strong case to be made here as I have observed that those who ask for nerfs are the same people who complain about the end result in most cases. Sure, the "balance" of the game swings, but not the way those who supported nerfs wanted it to and the game balance becomes more extreme, not less.

[Viisari]

Sorry, I dont buy the statement that if I dont agree with you Im somehow playing with noobs, or that Im trolling, as you have clearly tried to make a case for.

I also dont agree with nerfs to balance the game, because the end result is less balance, not more. Theres a pretty strong case to be made here as I have observed that those who ask for nerfs are the same people who complain about the end result in most cases. Sure, the "balance" of the game swings, but not the way those who supported nerfs wanted it to and the game balance becomes more extreme, not less.

Give me an example of a quest which you can complete faster solo than in a good group, there are none.

Whether you agree with nerfs or not is also irrelevant, because nerfs are necessary for the games survival, just like buffs and new content are.

[voodoogroves]

Give me an example of a quest which you can complete faster solo than in a good group, there are none.

Whether you agree with nerfs or not is also irrelevant, because nerfs are necessary for the games survival, just like buffs and new content are.

Epic Claw?

Chamber of Astrologer + Physician (Elite)

Diplomatic Impunity? Frame Work possibly?

[Viisari]

Epic Claw?

Nope, beating the giants takes forever alone.

Chamber of Astrologer + Physician (Elite)

Not really, but even if it was true it's largely irrelevant, those quests are pretty much only run once for favor or on casual for the seals.

Diplomatic Impunity? Frame Work possibly?

lol, no.

[Chai]

Nope, beating the giants takes forever alone.

Yet these are soloed alot. Doesnt seem to take forever to me. Heck Shades DPS challenge was based on one of the BOSS MOBS in here and it took melee (who you claim are useless) less than a few minutes to kill said boss. The other giants have far less HP. Casters crush these guys.

Not really, but even if it was true it's largely irrelevant, those quests are pretty much only run once for favor or on casual for the seals.

There you go calling everything that doesnt support your stance irrelevant again.

lol, no.

Both of those are easily soloable faster than in groups with the right class. One who understands kill zone tactics can kill just about everything in there with a couple blade barriers / firewalls. There are two really nice points to pull most of the mobs in the zone to. People in my guild call this quest "bovine university" due to the simpsons analogy of cows standing in line being ground up, heh. The AI in this game is all too happy to march right into it.

Whether you agree with nerfs or not is also irrelevant, because nerfs are necessary for the games survival, just like buffs and new content are.

Oberoni.

[Splatterfart]

"Why the wing nerf is such a big deal."

It isn't. Get over it.

[Viisari]

Yet these are soloed alot.

We were speaking about how fast it is to solo something, not how often it is done. You can't solo eClaw faster than you can do it with a group effort.

There you go calling everything that doesnt support your stance irrelevant again.

You have to find the mummies, and if you split up as a group, you'll find them faster, yes?

Both of those are easily soloable faster than in groups with the right class. One who understands kill zone tactics can kill just about everything in there with a couple blade barriers / firewalls. There are two really nice points to pull most of the mobs in the zone to. People in my guild call this quest "bovine university" due to the simpsons analogy of cows standing in line being ground up, heh. The AI in this game is all too happy to march right into it.

Our TR group was farming frame work for xp in 2-3 min runs if I remember right, you're not going to do it faster solo.

And oh dear if you try something that is anything more than a straigth run to the end, try doing delera 4 runs in 3 minutes with full optionals and XP bonuses solo...

Doesnt seem to take forever to me. Heck Shades DPS challenge was based on one of the BOSS MOBS in here and it took melee (who you claim are useless) less than a few minutes to kill said boss. The other giants have far less HP. Casters crush these guys.

Yes, few minutes, let's see how fast any arcane caster can do it, the other giants are fodder for FoD.

At best, these are quests that can be done in the same time as with a group, you cannot do them faster than a group like you claim.

[voodoogroves]

Nope, beating the giants takes forever alone.

Eh. No. It takes very little time. I solo this daily on my wizard, and I do it pretty quickly. I'm sure others are faster.

Get a party in there and scaling makes it tougher. I've done both numerous times ... sounds like you haven't?

Not really, but even if it was true it's largely irrelevant, those quests are pretty much only run once for favor or on casual for the seals.

You don't hit those at 1k/minute on your characters? I sure do. Alone ... 1 minute ... with a full group ... scaling and DA prevents this time frame. Period.

Finding the mummies is SIMPLE. Bringing people in scales the DA.

So ... you've not tested this? Just assuming then? Not actually done it multiple times, just discounting it?

lol, no.

Just "no"?

How is a group in Frame Work guaranteed faster? You kill the boss and get out faster? He dies plenty fast, the DA just makes it messier. One kill. One.

Diplomatic impunity has multiple gather-party chokepoints and nothing in there lasts long enough on a normal farm to require additional folks - in fact, get more people in there and scale them it might slow things down. At the very best you still have a group of people following the one person and their only job is to make sure they get to the gather point and not slow me down.




Seriously, DA levels w/ scaling slows all of those down and makes them all more difficult turning a fast run into more trouble. That stupid one in the harbor where you get the gem is the same way ... Tangleroot 6-ish (the run) is much faster with a smaller group than a big one.

Thanks to DA there are plenty of quests that are more difficult in a group - even a good group - just due to scaling.

[voodoogroves]

And oh dear if you try something that is anything more than a straigth run to the end, try doing delera 4 runs in 3 minutes with full optionals and XP bonuses solo...

This is where you're losing people.

You: Impossible! You can't name a quest where ...

Others: (named)

You: I don't believe it is possible! But I haven't done it, just stating my belief as absolute fact! Also, you can't name a quest that is faster if I include a restriction to ignore the quests that are faster! And if you can, you're running with NOOBS!



You've got a point and clearly you're passionate about it. That's great. Keep focused on your point, and don't distract from your message with insults ("you run with noobs") and unprovable all-or-nothing claims.

[Milfeulle]

I can using your logic, because casters were always better than melee in 97% of all content. The only place melee were relevant (your logic) is boss DPS. Everywhere else casters owned. Then epics came along, and players whose mains were melee were perfectly satisfied to have casters play slave to having a CC DC of 40 or dont join groups. Now that they are worth more than that, this all of a sudden translates to "melee is useless"? Im afraid not.

I am a human sorc and I can tank everything cept Horoth. I do more DPS than a melee class and I rarely see anyone can steal my aggro unless they have uber hate gear or use intimate.

[Viisari]

Eh. No. It takes very little time. I solo this daily on my wizard, and I do it pretty quickly. I'm sure others are faster.

Get a party in there and scaling makes it tougher. I've done both numerous times ... sounds like you haven't?

Oh yes, I have, as I said, you can at best do it as fast a group can, not faster like was claimed. And even then, I'd wager the group is faster in most cases.

And yes, I have soloed it and have also done it in groups quite often.

You don't hit those at 1k/minute on your characters? I sure do. Alone ... 1 minute ... with a full group ... scaling and DA prevents this time frame. Period.

Finding the mummies is SIMPLE. Bringing people in scales the DA.

So ... you've not tested this? Just assuming then? Not actually done it multiple times, just discounting it?

No, because by the time our group is in desert we're usually swimming in so much XP that we're busy getting all the good XP quests done before we cap and start taking penalties from them.

And even if I did do them, I'd say our group is quite capable of 1 minute runs there.

How is a group in Frame Work guaranteed faster? You kill the boss and get out faster? He dies plenty fast, the DA just makes it messier. One kill. One.

Diplomatic impunity has multiple gather-party chokepoints and nothing in there lasts long enough on a normal farm to require additional folks - in fact, get more people in there and scale them it might slow things down. At the very best you still have a group of people following the one person and their only job is to make sure they get to the gather point and not slow me down.

As said before, they are at best as fast as with a group focused on getting them done, plus in diplomatic impunity you can do more optionals with a group and complete in the same time, if not quicker compared to solo.

That actually applies to frame work too. Come to think of it, we haven't been killing the optional rares in frame work, won't slow us down and it's 400-2000 more xp per run depending on the rares.

Seriously, DA levels w/ scaling slows all of those down and makes them all more difficult turning a fast run into more trouble. That stupid one in the harbor where you get the gem is the same way ... Tangleroot 6-ish (the run) is much faster with a smaller group than a big one.

Especially when leveling, dungeon scaling does very little if anything at all to slow down a group, and then there are the quests which are some of the best xp quests in the game... if you happen to be doing them in a group.

And I can't really figure out any other epic quest than claw where you could get anywhere near the group completion times when soloing.