Why wing clipping is such a big deal.

[pHo3nix]

Gotta' call this. Wall of Fire was railed against for years for being the single most broken arcane* spell in the game. (Yes, yes, devils, mantles, and such; the point stands.)

Yes, it was really powerful for lvling purpose (expecially in the necro packs), but once you hit the vale and amrath it was (and still is) basically useless

The spell pass in u9, except for the nerf to extend, was great, there are now many more options for casters

IT on wings and kiting: fvs/clr start kiting through bb since they got it at lvl 12/11, so well before wings. Fvs tanking bosses usually shieldblock and DP while healing themselves, i do not see them flying around tbh. When i play my wf fvs i usually melee and DP in boss fights, if i need to reduce incoming damage i just put my DoD on, shieldblock and stay there.

If you use wings only for those "oh ****" moments there won't be almost any difference after the update; the real pain is for those who use wings instead of running (i'm in this category). As i said, my wf LoB usually melee, so it's not like i'm flying everywhere while fighting, but i will find the nerf really annoying for when i move.

I will adapt and live with the change or i will TR into something else, but i continue to believe that wings nerf is unneeded and won't solve anything

[Elaril]

When U9 was released, I remember someone saying that bad monks will get nerfed but good monks will remain unaffected by the removal of autocrit. Funnily enough, none of the good monks I know quit playing monks and they're all still doing a bloody fine job at their monky stuff.

The same seems to apply here, since I've yet to see any FvS I respect whine here until their arse bleeds.

Nah, that's not it. But that's a good way to replace my anecdotal evidence with your own in a mildly insulting manner. I'm pretty impressed.

They were good enough monk builds to where they weren't broken too much by the update, they just stopped playing them because they weren't what they once were. That's pretty much the core of the issue here as well. I see all these "I will adapt," and the self righteous "the good players will adapt" posts. This is empty rhetoric aimed to get people to agree with you because no one wants to be known as a bad player who can't adapt.

The thing with the wing nerf is that it is not something we should have to adapt to, and so it is more annoying than usual nerfs. It's not like they had no knowledge that favored souls had access to leap of faith prior to designing their new raid. I understand that it's been a while for them since they released a new raid, but they really should consider the abilities of all classes in their raid design. Regen timers and hard limits on use are ridiculous on at will abilities.

[Hikup]

Now, instead of players crying for nerfs we have devs designing raids that demand it.

[Viisari]

The thing with the wing nerf is that it is not something we should have to adapt to, and so it is more annoying than usual nerfs. It's not like they had no knowledge that favored souls had access to leap of faith prior to designing their new raid. I understand that it's been a while for them since they released a new raid, but they really should consider the abilities of all classes in their raid design. Regen timers and hard limits on use are ridiculous on at will abilities.

As I said before, I highly doubt this nerf is happening solely because of the new raids. From the dev posts I've read it feels more like a general balancing they've been looking at for a while now. Or maybe I missed the one where they stated that our new raid is broken by favored souls so we'll just nerf your wings.

[Elaril]

As I said before, I highly doubt this nerf is happening solely because of the new raids. From the dev posts I've read it feels more like a general balancing they've been looking at for a while now. Or maybe I missed the one where they stated that our new raid is broken by favored souls so we'll just nerf your wings.

One would have to think that the wing nerf would have been in the original implementation of U-11 on Lamannia had it been in the works for a while. Here is the first dev post on the subject matter that I have seen. Read into it what you will, but due to its location (in the raid discussion thread) one would have to assume that they felt that their new raid was broken by free turbine point pot chugging, wing spamming favored souls.

[Perspicacity]

If you weren't abusing them, and so few were/are, then how does the change really affect you?

Seems like you really don't have a leg to stand on then. Just continue to play the game as you were and I would find it hard to believe that you'll run out of them before the next shrine.

Fantastic misinterpretation, way to miss the point.

[Viisari]

One would have to think that the wing nerf would have been in the original implementation of U-11 on Lamannia had it been in the works for a while. Here is the first dev post on the subject matter that I have seen. Read into it what you will, but due to its location (in the raid discussion thread) one would have to assume that they felt that their new raid was broken by free turbine point pot chugging, wing spamming favored souls.

Yes, he's talking about it being an global issue rather than an issue with LoB, if it was an issue that only affected LoB they'd just nerf them there, yes?

Leap of Faith’s original design did not account for continuously or methodically use to be so game deforming and we’re regretting its current parameters so expect them to change…. Very soon.

He's basically saying Leap of Faith is not working as it was intended to work, thus they are correcting that.

[Perspicacity]

Dungeon alert is not broken. You may not like it, but that does not mean it's broken. The devs like DA and it's working as intended (in most cases).

That's the problem, it's the intention that was ill conceived. This game is strife with anti-zerging philosophy at least on the dev side and it boggles me. More people zerg than don't. Why rail against it? If the customers wants it and you give them the opposite you lose money. It's not that DA is broken, it's that the very idea of DA existing is broken. Impeding my game play because I'm to good at it is a D bag move. It's just another example of the Gigax mentality of, I'm the DM and my job is to kill you, that is rampent at Turbine.

We all start at level 1 and cap at 20, that's all the balance we need.

[Elaril]

Yes, he's talking about it being an global issue rather than an issue with LoB, if it was an issue that only affected LoB they'd just nerf them there, yes?

You'd think, which is why a global nerf is rather silly.

He's basically saying Leap of Faith is not working as it was intended to work, thus they are correcting that.

It's pretty much working as intended, the problem is that they didn't account for it in their design. That quote was one of the more ridiculous things that I have ever seen a developer say publically. What would you, as a rational thinking human being, think people are going to do with an ability that has a three second cooldown and small spellpoint cost that allows you to go from point a to b much quicker than you would otherwise?

If this were not about the raid, and was about its global overpowerment, then why would they not have mentioned it outside the thread on the new raid. The developers are smart people, they know the implications of post location. They made no mention of wings being a global issue, or an issue at all, until their raid was beaten through heavy dotting and kiting.

If I were them, I'd put a hard cap on mnemonic pot use on Lamannia per quest, revert the wing changes and see if the raid is beaten in the same manner.

[Hikup]

You'd think, which is why a global nerf is rather silly.





It's pretty much working as intended, the problem is that they didn't account for it in their design. That quote was one of the more ridiculous things that I have ever seen a developer say publically. What would you, as a rational thinking human being, think people are going to do with an ability that has a three second cooldown and small spellpoint cost that allows you to go from point a to b much quicker than you would otherwise?

If this were not about the raid, and was about its global overpowerment, then why would they not have mentioned it outside the thread on the new raid. The developers are smart people, they know the implications of post location. They made no mention of wings being a global issue, or an issue at all, until their raid was beaten through heavy dotting and kiting.

If I were them, I'd put a hard cap on mnemonic pot use on Lamannia per quest, revert the wing changes and see if the raid is beaten in the same manner.

While dev intelligence is debatable, I think the lack of common sense is not.

[Elaril]

While dev intelligence is debatable, I think the lack of common sense is not.

As mind boggling as some of their decisions are, I don't think that their intelligence should ever be brought into question.

[Chai]

Dungeon alert is not broken. You may not like it, but that does not mean it's broken. The devs like DA and it's working as intended (in most cases), you are supposed to be heavily slowed down and imobilized.
With that said we can clearly see that wings are broken becuase they allow you "to move with dungeon alert".

Here is more good arguments for why wings are OP/broken:



For being aganst the change you are doing a pretty good job of convincing people that the change is good.

Arbitrary game mechanics are arbitrary. DA is about as arbitrary as it gets.

Give customers something for a long period of time and then take it away from them. Watch hilarity ensue. Film at 11.

Of course you are for FvS nerf. Its not the fighter class. Everyone else is OP right?

Wrong.

[Perspicacity]

1. Epic just isn't epic without an anti rezz mechanic. We won't be turning off raise dead entirely but it will get more difficult to raise your dead on the harder difficulties.

Just thought I'd toss this in here, it's not directly related to the original topic but it is yet another fav soul nerf, a big one, and it pretty well gut checks clerics to.

[der_kluge]

Seems to me that a longer delay on the wings is all that was really required. Capping the number of times it can be used strikes me as overly artificial and unnecessary.

But the existence of this nerf speaks more to the fact that the lord of blades is too unbeatable through conventional means. I mean, if you've got a melee character that can only be beaten by throwing a bunch of Favored Souls on it, then you've got a serious design problem.

Nerfing FvS' wings is kind of like taking people's car horns away as a way of fixing traffic problems.

[Chai]

That's the problem, it's the intention that was ill conceived. This game is strife with anti-zerging philosophy at least on the dev side and it boggles me. More people zerg than don't. Why rail against it? If the customers wants it and you give them the opposite you lose money. It's not that DA is broken, it's that the very idea of DA existing is broken. Impeding my game play because I'm to good at it is a D bag move. It's just another example of the Gigax mentality of, I'm the DM and my job is to kill you, that is rampent at Turbine.

We all start at level 1 and cap at 20, that's all the balance we need.

Yeap exactly.

Impeding my game play because I'm to good at it is a D bag move.

We were rocking killzone tactics in the late 80s FPS games up to present. They chose to incorporate some FPS influence into their game rather than make it another sammich tank and spank game which the MMO world is already rife with. Trying to impede FPS players tried and true tactics after basing a good portion of the combat on that style is a blatent contradiction.

[Perspicacity]

We were rocking killzone tactics in the late 80s FPS games up to present. They chose to incorporate some FPS influence into their game rather than make it another sammich tank and spank game which the MMO world is already rife with. Trying to impede FPS players tried and true tactics after basing a good portion of the combat on that style is a blatant contradiction.

It's like you know me.

[Elaril]

But the existence of this nerf speaks more to the fact that the lord of blades is too unbeatable through conventional means. I mean, if you've got a melee character that can only be beaten by throwing a bunch of Favored Souls on it, then you've got a serious design problem.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I disagree with this. No one has been given the opportunity on live to beat the raid under actual game circumstances. I'd have powered through it dotting, kiting, and sucking down free potions as well just to be the first to beat it if I actually played on lamannia. Why? Why not? If I have free TP, I will have access to an infinite number of potions, which I do not have on live. So I wouldn't even bother developing a real strategy for the raid.

Historically, most raids have started out as pot guzzling fests for blue bar classes until we figure out an efficient strategy to beat it, then it becomes a grind fest.

[Aaxeyu]

Arbitrary game mechanics are arbitrary. DA is about as arbitrary as it gets.

Give customers something for a long period of time and then take it away from them. Watch hilarity ensue. Film at 11.

It may be arbitrary, but what has that got to do with what you quoted? I was simply pointing out that DA is not "broken". I don't think DA is a good feature (infact, i hate it), but it's still working just as intended, to slow players down.
DA was brought up as an example to why the wings are OP. It is a very good argument, and trying to get around it by saying that "I don't like DA, so it doesn't count" is just silly.

Of course you are for FvS nerf. Its not the fighter class. Everyone else is OP right?

Wrong.

lol. Typical Chai response.

Newsflash: I am affected by this change just as everyone else. I LOVE to just zerg thourgh everything with my FvS wings, completely disregard DA and any other slow effects and kite anything. But I also realise that it's overpowered.

[~sumptingwong]

Well I guess since I can't change anyone's opinions then I will just say that you are all a bunch of un-intelligent group of people that are basically saying,"Wings are OP, Once they are nerfed now I will be able to be as good as a Favored Soul or will not be so poorly compared to them.

Dungeon Alert Should have never came to this game in the first place, it is tactics to pull alot of mobs and then save your sp by throwing one or two FW or BB. It isn't even that much of tactics as it is Common Sense (saving sp SHOULD be common sense).

Well I guess if they remove wings they should either remove Dungeon Alert or make it so that every is always harried to prevent any Zerging at all, also remove the abundant step because that goes through DA as well. (Sarcasm on abundant step for those that did not catch it)

Those supporting the nerf that do and not play Favored Souls are lastly un-intelligent because you run with favored souls that use their wings wich helps speed up quests by the most part, so by nerfing the wings your slowing down yourself, I know most of you are just going to say,"What ever," because you are as Stubborn as a jackass, but think what you wish because if you do not care about my opinion I won't care about yours.

[Viisari]

Those supporting the nerf that do and not play Favored Souls are lastly un-intelligent because you run with favored souls that use their wings wich helps speed up quests by the most part, so by nerfing the wings your slowing down yourself, I know most of you are just going to say,"What ever," because you are as Stubborn as a jackass, but think what you wish because if you do not care about my opinion I won't care about yours.

This is so wrong it's actually pretty funny

For your information, unless the whole party is full of favored souls that only wing forward ignoring all mobs, having a favored soul in the party will not make the quest go faster at all.

Having a necromancer in the party on the other hand...

<edit> As an example, in my previous TR, we had a favored soul in our TR group. Before she got wings, she was always behind our two sprint boosting toons, and after she got her wings she still had trouble keeping up. And even if she could go faster, that doesn't really factor in at all when doing xp because everyone in our group is doing stuff in different directions, it'd only matter if *everyone* in the group was a favored soul.

Epics are a different matter entirely, and that's where necromancers rule currently.