Fighter vs. Ranger TWF

[Philibusta]

I've been playing DDO going on two years now, and for a long while, something's been running around in my head.

Something that just doesn't really make sense to me.

Let me explain.

Why is is that Ranger Tempests have the potential to become better two-weapon fighters than a...fighter?

Think about it:

Two people start the training necessary to become their given classes, a fighter and a ranger.

While the ranger is learning to use his weapons, the fighter is also training with his weapons.

While the ranger is learning to use divine magic, the fighter is...training with his weapons.

While the ranger is learning how to pewpew better than anyone else...the fighter is training with is weapons.

While the ranger is learning how to talk to the chimpunks and hug all the trees and all that other Woodsy the Owl stuff rangers learn, the fighter is...you guessed it...training with his weapons.

So with all this time devoted to things other than how to melee, how in the world is it that a ranger can be a better two-weapon fighter than a fighter?

Isn't it kinda like saying a general practice doctor would be better to perform your heart transplant than a cardiologist?
Discuss.

[dkyle]

Fighter spends more time learning how to survive combat better (bigger hit-die, heavier armor, Stalwart Defender), training their strength (Enhancements), and perfecting their use of a specific weapon (Kensai).

Overall, a Fighter TWF is currently better than a Ranger TWF. Ranger is only competitive vs Favored Enemies. Basically, the Ranger is highly dedicated to striking as often as possible with their weapons, but is less good at making those hits count, unless facing specific kinds of enemies.

[Philibusta]

So, really then, the fighter is still only better at low-mid levels. Cause at high levels, all the ranger needs to do to be better than the fighter is choose Evil Outsiders, Aberrations, and Undead as favored enemies.

[k1ngp1n]

So, really then, the fighter is still only better at low-mid levels. Cause at high levels, all the ranger needs to do to be better than the fighter is choose Evil Outsiders, Aberrations, and Undead as favored enemies.

Uhh....


Since when is a TWF ranger competitive with a TWF fighter? The fighter outclasses the ranger at every turn, even against FE.

[grodon9999]

So, really then, the fighter is still only better at low-mid levels. Cause at high levels, all the ranger needs to do to be better than the fighter is choose Evil Outsiders, Aberrations, and Undead as favored enemies.

as a pure combatant, fighter is better by every measurable metric.

[dkyle]

So, really then, the fighter is still only better at low-mid levels. Cause at high levels, all the ranger needs to do to be better than the fighter is choose Evil Outsiders, Aberrations, and Undead as favored enemies.

Epics?

And I said "competitive". I don't think Rangers are better, even against favored enemies. Especially since end-game also has a lot of content with moderate length fights where a Fighter's Haste Boosts count for a ton.

And that's just DPS. In terms of HP, a Fighter is realistically capable of far more than a Ranger. A Fighter can spend 7 feats on Toughness, with no loss of DPS. A Ranger doesn't even get Toughness Enhancements.

[Malison]

Ranger:
+2 str (rams)
+2 dmg (rams)
+14 dmg (FE)
---17 mainhand damage
+20% offhand strikes (tempest)
+5% doublestrike

Fighter:
+3 str (enh)
+4 dmg (greater weapon spec)
+8 str (kensai surge)
+2 dmg (figher enhancement)
+2 dmg (kensai enhancement)
---13.5 mainhand damage
+4 seeker (kensai enh)
+1 threat range (kensai)
Haste Boost, 30%
+10% doublestrike (capstone)
Capacity for tactics
More bonus feats than ranger

The slight disadvantage in pure damage is outmatched by the fighter's crit bonuses and haste boost. The only possible point giving the ranger an advantage would be 100% fortification, and even then it's still probably the fighter.

The real question is, why DON'T ranger tempests have the capacity to outdo fighters in TWF? Tempest grants nothing but TWF bonuses. Kensai improves any weapon style.

[dkyle]

The real question is, why DON'T ranger tempests have the capacity to outdo fighters in TWF? Tempest grants nothing but TWF bonuses. Kensai improves any weapon style.

A given character will only, realistically, be TWF or THF. Limiting bonuses to one style is not a significantly limiting downside.

And in fact, Kensai is even more limiting: for a given character it normally only applies to one weapon, and takes up more AP on a very AP staved class if you try to extend it to more weapons. But it doesn't matter much, since a given character is likely to use the same weapon types 90% of the time anyway.

[grodon9999]

The real question is, why DON'T ranger tempests have the capacity to outdo fighters in TWF? Tempest grants nothing but TWF bonuses. Kensai improves any weapon style.

Self-buffing/self-healing. That's the point of balance.

Tempest III could still use a bit of a boost without things getting crazy.

[licho]

Ranger gets:
+20% offhand attack
+5% mainhand doublestrike
+14 dmg against FE
+3 dmg from rams

Fighters gets:
+4 from weapon spec
+1,5 from str ench
+4 Power surge
+2 From Fighter ench Specializacion
+2 from Kensai Mastery
+4 seeker, which can be translated to +1,6 dmg
+10% mainhand double strike
+30% haste boost
+1 critical range

Maybe i forgot about something :-/

So the only condicion when Ranger>Fighter is when:
- they fight against FE
- the FE has 100% fortificacion
- the FE has DR not bypassed by fighter weapon of choice, some golems or sceles come to mind (also portals ;-) ).

And this is the problem. Even against FE ranger do not outperform other classes, and against others its just -14 dmg per hit behind. With every adventure pack the probality of come not fe rise. In the same time ranger do not offer party general utylity, resistance and fom are nice, but there are many classes who can do same.

Also i do not have logic problems with TWF against FE Ranger being better than fighter, in the same way as i do not have problems with 2H Barbarian outperforming 2H FIghter against 50% fort mobs.

IMHO rangers could be really buffed without smashing cosmic balance, making temp III 10% adding some kind of melee capstone (some kind of haste like clikie), and short term buffs will give some life into class.

EDIT: of course got ninjed.

[grodon9999]

IMHO rangers could be really buffed without smashing cosmic balance, making temp III 10% adding some kind of melee capstone (some kind of haste like clikie), and short term buffs will give some life into class.

Double-strike equal to 5% plus your DEX bonus and full STR to off-hand attacks is what I want, and it'd still be behind Kensai.

[Therigar]

And in fact, Kensai is even more limiting: for a given character it normally only applies to one weapon, and takes up more AP on a very AP staved class if you try to extend it to more weapons.

Q: How do you extend Kensai to more than one weapon?

A: You don't. You must pick one, and only one, weapon to specialize in with the Kensai enhancement line.

[dkyle]

Q: How do you extend Kensai to more than one weapon?

A: You don't. You must pick one, and only one, weapon to specialize in with the Kensai enhancement line.

Ah, OK, I thought you could take more than one. Never tried, since it was never worth it to me, but I thought I had seen them still sitting there after taking one. Guess not.

[Rauven]

The real issue isn't Ranger vs Fighter, it's Tempest vs Kensei. Tempest took quite a beating when it lost the 10% attack speed competence bonus from temp I. Temp III's 5% doublestrike does not make up for that loss; especially when you consider that the former fighter capstone granted a 10% competence bonus and now grants 10% doublestrike to melee weapons (as well as 10% ranged/thrown attack speed boost).

A few things that could be done to improve tempest:

1. Increase the doublestrike benefit from temp III to 10-15% and/or;
2. Add a haste boost to temp I, maybe a 10% attack speed boost (lesser than fighter/rogue HB I) that can be increased through additional enhancements and/or;
3. Make a tempest oriented capstone that grants a doublestrike bonus that would stack with temp III.

Anyone of these would go a long way to bringing tempest closer to kensei dps without going overboard.

[licho]

[*]Add a haste boost to temp I, maybe a 10% attack speed boost (lesser than fighter/rogue HB I) that can be increased through additional enhancements and/or;

While i support buffing rangers, and giving them some kind of haste boost this one is dangerous.
levels 1-6 are not so bad. You get bunch of free feats. You get rams, and +5against, the 10% offhand is quite fair.
The problems with rangers starts from 13+ when you really dont get anything special anymore.
So some haste like bonus could apear but, maybe as capstone. (similar to power surge, but speed based)

[Therigar]

The real issue isn't Ranger vs Fighter, it's Tempest vs Kensei.

No, it really is ranger vs fighter. The premise is that rangers have the ability to become better TWF than fighters. That is not true. The vast amount of end game modeling that has been done regarding DPS shows that even against FE rangers do not do better. This is borne out in actual practice by players.

There was a time when Tempest was the only PrE and rangers were the melee class of choice. That changed when the other melee classes received their own PrEs. It is because of the addition of fighter PrEs that ranger is not better.

If you remove the PrEs completely then fighter > ranger. If you include the PrEs then fighter > ranger. It was only when ranger was the only class with a PrE that ranger > fighter.

This entire thread exists only because of a false premise presented by the OP -- "that Ranger Tempests have the potential to become better two-weapon fighters." Unless we intentionally manipulate the fighter's enhancements and feats to prevent them, it is not possible for fighters to be worse. So, if this false starting point is discounted then there is no need for the thread -- since the conclusion the OP reaches can never exist.

[Chai]

The real question is, why DON'T ranger tempests have the capacity to outdo fighters in TWF? Tempest grants nothing but TWF bonuses. Kensai improves any weapon style.

Kensai improves one chosen weapon the most. Fighters have to choose what that is going to be and stick with it by using quite a few feats to back it up.

Ranger is a hybrid class with alot of stuff already chosen for you.

Fighter is more of a blank template with more feats but nothing already chosen. The player can build it up as they see fit.

[Rauven]

While i support buffing rangers, and giving them some kind of haste boost this one is dangerous.
levels 1-6 are not so bad. You get bunch of free feats. You get rams, and +5against, the 10% offhand is quite fair.
The problems with rangers starts from 13+ when you really dont get anything special anymore.
So some haste like bonus could apear but, maybe as capstone. (similar to power surge, but speed based)

I don't see how a 10% haste boost with temp I is a problem, considering that tempest's wouldn't get it until lvl 6 whereas fighters and rogues can get 15% at lvl 1. The free feats granted by ranger 6 (2 fe's, wild empathy, bow str, rapid shot, die hard, many shot & itwf) are offset by the 3 feats a tempest has to take to quality for the pre. Compare that to kensei I, fighter 6 gets 4 bonus feats and kensei I requires 2 feats spent on weapon focus and specialization.

[licho]

I don't see how a 10% haste boost with temp I is a problem, considering that tempest's wouldn't get it until lvl 6 whereas fighters and rogues can get 15% at lvl 1. The free feats granted by ranger 6 (2 fe's, wild empathy, bow str, rapid shot, die hard, many shot & itwf) are offset by the 3 feats a tempest has to take to quality for the pre. Compare that to kensei I, fighter 6 gets 4 bonus feats and kensei I requires 2 feats spent on weapon focus and specialization.

You forgot about 10% offhand proc which already exist, and ram might which is another +3 dmg in your face.
Level 1-12 is when rangers get something, you can argue that some classes got better but the difference is not so astonishing. After level 13+ ranger gains is symbolic in comparison to other classes.
Boosting Temp 1 will only make them nice splash levels, but do not change class as whole.

[Rauven]

You forgot about 10% offhand proc which already exist, and ram might which is another +3 dmg in your face.
Level 1-12 is when rangers get something, you can argue that some classes got better but the difference is not so astonishing. After level 13+ ranger gains is symbolic in comparison to other classes.
Boosting Temp 1 will only make them nice splash levels, but do not change class as whole.

I didn't forget it simply wasn't the focus of my comment. A temp I will have +10% off hand procs (70% compared to 60% with just ITWF) and +3 dmg from a 6 min rams. A kensei I with weapon master I will have +2 attack, +3 dmg and +2 to crit dmg with their specialized weapon and can have 6 uses of +15-20% attack speed boost.

And no, I didn't forget that the temp I will also have +3 ac and the ability to run around swinging their weapons without the -4 penalty for moving.

I don't see how 6 ranger splash with a 5 use/rest 10% haste action boost, +10% off hand attacks and 6 min rams +3 dmg is over powered or that more beneficial than 6 fighter splash, which would grant 2 free feats (2 of the 4 free fighter feats used to buy kensei I), +2 attack, +3 damage and 6 uses/rest of +15-2-% attack speed boost. Yes, the ranger gets TWF and ITWF free, as well as a couple ranged feats, but has to spend 3 feats to quality for tempest I.