Fighter vs. Ranger TWF

[Beer_Dude]

The easiest answer is a ranger is better for twf because he only needs a 11 dex and a +2 tome to get tempest becauase he/she gets twf for free regardless of dex. If they didn't want tempest (not sure whythey would) they could start at 8 8 dex. The rest of the points can go into str and con a fighter has to get their dex way higher thus less points for con and str.

When this is done a human ranger can clear 550 hp with the right gear which is more than enough for any quest even if tanking. Add in 6 or 8 levels of fighter for kensai and FTR str 2 and the ranger will out perform the fighter. A pure fighter will only have 1 more point in str than the ranger who has rams might on so there is no real difference in str damage and the ranger will also have ftr haste boost not as high of an attack speed % but not too far off than a pure fighter.

There really is no reason to go more than 12 levels of ranger IMO. Actully I prefer to go 11 ranger, 6 fighter, and 3 pally. Dump wis put the points into cha take Force of pesonality. Saves go thru the roof and UMDing heal scrolls are a peice of cake. Along with that you're immune to disease and fear, and get 3 Fe's, and able to buff as well.

Add it all together and IMO the ranger wins out by a slight margin. If nothing esle because of the extra stat points at roll up. The only thing the ranger misses in a 12/8 or an 11/6/3 toon is a couple of feats and a few hp. But the HP gap is usually closed by the extra stat points available to con that the fighter would have to put into dex.

[stainer]

There really is no reason to go more than 12 levels of ranger IMO. Actully I prefer to go 11 ranger, 6 fighter, and 3 pally. Dump wis put the points into cha take Force of pesonality. Saves go thru the roof and UMDing heal scrolls are a peice of cake. Along with that you're immune to disease and fear, and get 3 Fe's, and able to buff as well.

I disagree with you, respectfully and even then just a little. 14 levels of Ranger are handy for FOM. Greenis is a 14/6 TempII/KenI and he puts out the hurt. If I would have went 8 ftr 12 ranger, I would have got one more feat, but I had a ton already.

[dkyle]

A pure fighter will only have 1 more point in str than the ranger who has rams might on so there is no real difference in str damage and the ranger will also have ftr haste boost not as high of an attack speed % but not too far off than a pure fighter.

A pure fighter gets power surge for 8 more STR. Yeah, it doesn't last forever, but end-game doesn't have many places where it won't last.

A pure fighter gets +1 crit range, and 10% doublestrike, which together on a Khopesh or Pick fighter, significantly out-weigh the +20% off-hand a Tempest II gets, in terms of multiplying base damage.

A pure Fighter also gets +4 base damage against all enemies over a 6 Fighter. 12 Ranger gives +9 damage, but only against 3 specific favored enemies.

Ranger is fine as a versatility choice, but it really isn't as close as you suggest in terms of DPS.

[Beer_Dude]

I disagree with you, respectfully and even then just a little. 14 levels of Ranger are handy for FOM. Greenis is a 14/6 TempII/KenI and he puts out the hurt. If I would have went 8 ftr 12 ranger, I would have got one more feat, but I had a ton already.

I said that's how I prefer. IMO I'm only missig out on FOM which I can use scrolls for. I usually only have enough scrolls for me as you can only get them from a chest (as far as I know). I'll trade the FOM and 1 more FE for the three levels of pally but that's my play style. I still pass out all the other buffs poison, resists, protects, etc. and have more than enough mana for a raid. I don't think a healer/bard is going to miss that much SP by handing out FOM if I get all the other buffs that I mentioned. So it's a matter of choice if I wasn't going to put the 3 pally level in I'd do as you and go 14/6 or 12/8 still gets you FOM, but I prefer the pally levels for more immunities, umd, and MUCH higer saves with the FOP feat.

Now get off my lawn Randy!

[Beer_Dude]

A pure fighter gets power surge for 8 more STR. Yeah, it doesn't last forever, but end-game doesn't have many places where it won't last.

A pure fighter gets +1 crit range, and 10% doublestrike, which together on a Khopesh or Pick fighter, significantly out-weigh the +20% off-hand a Tempest II gets, in terms of multiplying base damage.

A pure Fighter also gets +4 base damage against all enemies over a 6 Fighter. 12 Ranger gives +9 damage, but only against 3 specific favored enemies.

Ranger is fine as a versatility choice, but it really isn't as close as you suggest in terms of DPS.

Your crit range is about to be negated on end game bosses since you brought up end game and most mobs in end game are going to be a FE so the +9 comes into play quit a bit in end game. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm not certain). If you pop your power surge then you can't pop your haste boost correct? So one has surge the other has boost which draws it close together.

The fact of the matter is the way the checks and balances are in the game. It's designed for all classes to be pretty close when it comes to a DPS toon. That's assuming equal gear and well thought out toons.

[stainer]

Your crit range is about to be negated on end game bosses since you brought up end game and most mobs in end game are going to be a FE so the +9 comes into play quit a bit in end game. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm not certain). If you pop your power surge then you can't pop your haste boost correct? So one has surge the other has boost which draws it close together.

The fact of the matter is the way the checks and balances are in the game. It's designed for all classes to be pretty close when it comes to a DPS toon. That's assuming equal gear and well thought out toons.

Power surge and haste boost can be triggered together.

[Kinerd]

I don't see how a 10% haste boost with temp I is a problem, considering that tempest's wouldn't get it until lvl 6 whereas fighters and rogues can get 15% at lvl 1. The free feats granted by ranger 6 (2 fe's, wild empathy, bow str, rapid shot, die hard, many shot & itwf) are offset by the 3 feats a tempest has to take to quality for the pre. Compare that to kensei I, fighter 6 gets 4 bonus feats and kensei I requires 2 feats spent on weapon focus and specialization.

The problem is more: why bother taking more than 6 ranger in your scenario? We've been down that road before. Where rangers need melee DPS help is the levels past 12, and desperately in the levels past 18.

Rangers get excellent reflex saves so they will have more useful evasion than a splashed-fighter. it does cut down on a ton of incoming damage as many of the bit hits in this game are AOE spells.

Pure ranger gets +12. Fighter / 2 rogue gets +9, +3 from Kensei against spells for a total of +12. The fighter also might start with higher Dex to get TWF feats, so they would actually be ahead of the ranger all other things being equal. An exploiter would have +15, but even then it's going to be a close run thing, not a dramatic advantage for the ranger.

Is that "better?" I'm not so sure. Taking into account everything he brings to a group. Granted a lot of the ranger perks do come from splashing, but it adds up. he can get epic traps, do a decent amount of buffing and healing. When we short-man stuff he's always the guy I bring for those reasons.

I'm always a little embarrassed when I have to start healing another exploiter with my exploiter.

Kensai III is much better than Tempest III

I'm not so sure. For a khopesh against 0 fort, we're talking a 29/27 increase in weapon base damage only (and piddly from bursts) for the fighter, or 7.4%. Against 50 fort that's down to 4.3%. Double-strike's contribution depends on Strength bonus, but it's definitely between 2.5% and 3.3%, plus it multiplies everything and doesn't get eaten up by increased fortification. The capstone is a disaster, but I think Tempest 3 gets an unfair shake.

The fact of the matter is the way the checks and balances are in the game. It's designed for all classes to be pretty close when it comes to a DPS toon. That's assuming equal gear and well thought out toons.

I think you grossly overestimate how coherent and well-thought-out Turbine's vision for/of the game is.