Paladins and AC

[elraido]

Quick question. Why, after all these years, are people starting to think about creating "AC Tanks" when they have been considered too hard to grind out gear for, useless, can't create dps, useless in epics etc?

What has changed with this up coming mod that people think it will be easier to create one? I know that the DoS line gets a couple of buffs (+2 more to str and con, 20% more hp in stance and movement increase), but nothing to AC.

[grodon9999]

Quick question. Why, after all these years, are people starting to think about creating "AC Tanks" when they have been considered too hard to grind out gear for, useless, can't create dps, useless in epics etc?

What has changed with this up coming mod that people think it will be easier to create one? I know that the DoS line gets a couple of buffs (+2 more to str and con, 20% more hp in stance and movement increase), but nothing to AC.

people want to do ToD/VoD on levels above normal without killing healers. The bosses are getting steroids next update.

The DPS grind is actually worse than the AC grind right now anyway.

[elraido]

people want to do ToD/VoD on levels above normal without killing healers. The bosses are getting steroids next update.

The DPS grind is actually worse than the AC grind right now anyway.

I know about the update next mod...but all people have been screaming for the last 3+ years now is "Moar DPS!!!! If you kill it quicker that is less resources for the casters."

And I do agree the DPS grind is actually fairly bad. I keep telling people, the only "hard" ones to try and get now a days are the chattering ring, Leviks Shield, and maybe the DoS set since people will now actually want them.

[grodon9999]

I know about the update next mod...but all people have been screaming for the last 3+ years now is "Moar DPS!!!! If you kill it quicker that is less resources for the casters."

"MOAR DPS!!! MOAR HP!!!! HJEAL MEH!!" was a very legit option up until U11 makes it all but impossible without an absurd amount of resources. We use barbs/meat-bags all the time as well as AC guys depending on what we have available. Sometimes the meat-bag runs would be smother because ther stuff died faster.

Come U11 . . . we'll see.

Also regarding pallies specifically, they were always a little HP-lite for some of the more grueling tanking tasks because they couldn't stack on the toughness feats. Come U11, that 20% more HP (MOAR HP!!!) addresses that so they are more viable.

[Enoach]

"MOAR DPS!!! MOAR HP!!!! HJEAL MEH!!" was a very legit option up until U11 makes it all but impossible without an absurd amount of resources. We use barbs/meat-bags all the time as well as AC guys depending on what we have available. Sometimes the meat-bag runs would be smother because ther stuff died faster.

Come U11 . . . we'll see.

Also regarding pallies specifically, they were always a little HP-lite for some of the more grueling tanking tasks because they couldn't stack on the toughness feats. Come U11, that 20% more HP (MOAR HP!!!) addresses that so they are more viable.

Also, SD and DoS Stances (if implemented as they are being previewed) no longer have 50%+ movement penalties. and Gain +2 STR/CON. Which means it can be used in more situations than the "Stand Still Fight".

More options for AC have been slowly trickling in, making rare items like Raid Loot (example Chattering Ring) swappable for Named Items. Example: Dragon Touched armor can have various Dodge Bonuses which the +3 does not stack with the Chattering Ring).

Some Builds can forgo Heavy/Medium Armor in favor of a more centered approach.

The real trick now is taking the items you have and slotting them to maximize for the given situation.

Next going AC w/o sacrificing more DPS then necessary can make certain quests less resource and management intense. VoD and ToD are just two examples, as both of these quests require a more controlled killing as you want certain events to occur before the Boss is snuffed.

Paladins while behind on Feats against Fighters and HP vs Barbarians, they do have a built in self sufficiency.

[CanuckWisdom]

It seems to me that turbine is trying to slowly bring 'tanks' back into the picture. The changes to shield feats were legitimately useful (despite AC), and the way they changed intim to a threat bonus, the change to the defensive PrE's makes sense too, more HP and threat etc.

[PestWulf]

I don't really look at epic gear to much due to, well, just not being in high level content that much. But the one thing that pretty much killed the defender lines to me was the 50% movement penalty. It was absurd, plain and simple.

Also, with the ddo events they put in the game like the Crystal Cove, there are epic loot options available that even people like me can get their grubby little hands on.

I put together a Dwarven Dreadnaught for myself, a kensai version and a defender version. What looks so nice is that with a defender in the stance form and using pretty much "normal" loot that doesn't come from raids and very little from Epics ( cavalry plate and buccaneer ring and an augment crystal). I can hit:
standing AC of 73
DR 6/-
823hp
+29hit (not counting any +gear beyond a +5 weapon and small guild slot,is counting hit penalties of shield and CE)
+14 damage (again, no gear beyond a +5 weapon)
Resist profile of 33/29/21 (counting +6 stat gear and a +5 resist item)

I'm currently playing around with it a bit in my spreadsheet, considering dropping the THF line and picking up TWF for a "dps mode" that looses my +5mith tower (9AC) and 6 DR/- but gains me a lot more damage output.
I could also drop PA/cleave/GCleave and increase my single point hit/dam to +31hit / +20dam by picking up the fighter weapon Specs and about 6 points of enhancements to go with them.

Also I've noticed if you have a high crafting (100's) you have +2 Dodge AC craftable on three slots. So it looks like there is a lot of more AC options out there if someone like me is able to pull of this AC (this is without crafting either, btw, just some auction loot, +2 Tomes(omni for me) and then the epic event items which even I can get my hands on.

I would think a person with access to those ship buffs, potions and some raid buffing from Bards and Clerics would be able to pull down a lot higher AC now with ease.

[Thrudh]

Quick question. Why, after all these years, are people starting to think about creating "AC Tanks" when they have been considered too hard to grind out gear for, useless, can't create dps, useless in epics etc?

Because grinding out gear isn't that hard anymore, they're useful in several end-game raids, they can generate tons of threat which means they don't need DPS in tank mode (and these builds can switch to DPS mode if they aren't the main tank, so it's not like they are pigeonholed).

However, AC is still useless in epics...

I have a DPS barbarian, and I have a AC fighter... I enjoy the AC fighter more... When I tank ToD, I feel more useful and integral to the success of the raid than when I'm one of the 7 DPS apes beating on the boss's back.

What has changed with this up coming mod that people think it will be easier to create one? I know that the DoS line gets a couple of buffs (+2 more to str and con, 20% more hp in stance and movement increase), but nothing to AC.

Those are pretty big changes... The much smaller movement penalty means you can keep the stance on all the time... 20% more hp is pretty huge, along with a +6 STR and +6 CON bonus...

I almost think Kensai needs a boost... I used to switch back and forth between Kensai and Stalwart... but I think I'll be sticking with Stalwart a lot more now.

I'm excited for the new quests and raids where AC will matter... where people will be looking for AC tanks in the LFMs.

[Thrudh]

I know about the update next mod...but all people have been screaming for the last 3+ years now is "Moar DPS!!!! If you kill it quicker that is less resources for the casters."

Even before the changes, that attitude was somewhat incorrect... Even now, before U11, I laugh when raid leaders pick half-orc barbarians to tank Suulo in ToD instead of my AC fighter...

I point out that Suulo can only hit me on a 20, and I can heal myself... Almost no resources used when I tank Suulo... Some leaders can see the wisdom of that... Others insist on putting their guild barbarian on Suulo, where he constantly gets hit and cursed, and the cleric has to work hard to keep him alive, especially when two curses hit back-to-back.

After U11, I'll be even more powerful with untouchable AC, and hit points only 10% below a barbarian instead of 30% below.

But I'm sure party leaders will still pick the barbarian to tank most of the time... Old habits die hard.

[sephiroth1084]

A list of recent changes that have given rise to this renewed focus on (paladin) tanks:

• Buffs to the defender lines, which make them less cumbersome, more useful in general, and specifically really help paladins who were previously a bit HP-lite.
• Reworked epic items that are aimed at tanking characters (specifically: Grim's Bracelet and Brawn's Spirits). Grim's is also probably a lot less tedious to acquire than the Chattering Ring, which had been a major point against AC grinding.
• A long-awaited upgrade to the Chaosgardes.
• Revised shield feats providing S&B characters with both more defense and more offense.
• Increased raid boss HP making for longer fights, which in turn mean greater resource expenditure--AC cuts down on resources, as does Shield Mastery's damage mitigation.
• Removal of immunity to Command spells granted by Protection from Evil (this did happen, right?) emphasizes saving throws.
• Reduction in epic trash HP means that the paladin's lag in DPS is less significant, so they don't feel like a burden.

[Iaga]

Even before the changes, that attitude was somewhat incorrect... Even now, before U11, I laugh when raid leaders pick half-orc barbarians to tank Suulo in ToD instead of my AC fighter...

I point out that Suulo can only hit me on a 20, and I can heal myself... Almost no resources used when I tank Suulo... Some leaders can see the wisdom of that... Others insist on putting their guild barbarian on Suulo, where he constantly gets hit and cursed, and the cleric has to work hard to keep him alive, especially when two curses hit back-to-back.

After U11, I'll be even more powerful with untouchable AC, and hit points only 10% below a barbarian instead of 30% below.

But I'm sure party leaders will still pick the barbarian to tank most of the time... Old habits die hard.

Speaking as one of my guild's leaders, i agree with this 110% Heck, we have a decently high AC tank on Horoth and i can almost keep him up with my FVS capstone alone. It's a massive difference.

[Thrudh]

A long-awaited upgrade to the Chaosgardes.

What's the upgrade?

Removal of immunity to Command spells granted by Protection from Evil (this did happen, right?) emphasizes saving throws.

What? When?

[sephiroth1084]

But I'm sure party leaders will still pick the barbarian to tank most of the time... Old habits die hard.

Some of it is habit, and some is conditioning: there are many more crappy AC-tank wannabes than there are crappy barbarians incapable of tanking Sulu.

I hate it, too, when I join a tankable raid on my outfitted defender and get passed up for a sack of HP. I'm really excited for U11, as it will both save me 6 AP (dropping class and racial Toughness III) and get me to around 770 HP on my paladin, well into the save zone for tanking elite Horoth and even the Epic Abishai Devastator.

[Emili]

Quick question. Why, after all these years, are people starting to think about creating "AC Tanks" when they have been considered too hard to grind out gear for, useless, can't create dps, useless in epics etc?

What has changed with this up coming mod that people think it will be easier to create one? I know that the DoS line gets a couple of buffs (+2 more to str and con, 20% more hp in stance and movement increase), but nothing to AC.

1. The movement use to restrict the use. (people/groups always preferred to move as quickly through the quest ... hence one of the major reasons Barbs, FvS and monk are so popular are they move quickly)
2. Additional sources of AC add choices ... no longer are people forced into a strict set choice of gear such as requirement to farm chat rings.
3. The slight boost along DPS/to-hit coupled with hate generation allow some more room for such builds to maintain control.
4. Additional survivability 20% hp is a huge boost on a ac tank and lends them to balance out.

[sephiroth1084]

What's the upgrade?

The Bracelet of Tharaak is in the same slot, has the same Dodge +2, but adds Toughness (and something else I think). Not a huge upgrade, but very nice, even in endgame set-up as it gives you that extra AC while also essentially holding a blue slot.

What? When?

I remember reading this in a release note or dev discussion somewhere, but I haven't been all that fastidious about keeping up to date on all the goings on over the last few months, because I haven't been able to play DDO since mid-April. Whether that ever came to pass or not, I can't say, but I recall the devs being pretty keen on removing that immunity (and I was in support of it).

[Thrudh]

I'm really excited for U11, as it will both save me 6 AP (dropping class and racial Toughness III) and get me to around 770 HP on my paladin, well into the save zone for tanking elite Horoth and even the Epic Abishai Devastator.

Yeah, I have yet to tank Horoth, because my hp is around 580... The boost to hps plus the new Chimera's crown should get me close to 700... another 20 once I get Brawn's Spirits and a +2 Exc CON...

[sephiroth1084]

Yeah, I have yet to tank Horoth, because my hp is around 580... The boost to hps plus the new Chimera's crown should get me close to 700... another 20 once I get Brawn's Spirits and a +2 Exc CON...

You can do it with 580, but you're a liability.

I've done it at each increment of 20 from 560 to 660. 640ish is where I start feeling a little comfortable about it, but even at 660 I feel like I'm still too open to a quick death as a result of unlucky rolls and timing. 700 should be more than enough, and I fully expect healers are going to get lazy when I'm at 770.

I had dropped some healing amp for more HP, which I'll be able to reverse next update, which will make everyone happy.

[Emili]

Yeah, I have yet to tank Horoth, because my hp is around 580... The boost to hps plus the new Chimera's crown should get me close to 700... another 20 once I get Brawn's Spirits and a +2 Exc CON...

700 is actually a good round number for him... way I look at it. I've run against both he and sulu in elite runs of tod from running hp of 800 on barb and a 680 on fighter (in dps mode at that). My honest opinion has always been the fighter felt more trusting ... am actually more nervous on the barb due watching rage timers - barb hp fluctuate more than fighters - you're watch the timer tick waiting for a spot to release and reengage rage... allowing horoth a window of opportunity he by chance grabs.

One important aspect noone mentioned yet in this thread is ... these boss' actually will hit harder in melee also now. I do not know how that will come into play because most of their heavy damage was not actually from claws before but in fact spells. Combinations badge tick, melee, disintigrate, badge tick... or lightning, melee cursed, lightning... We will have to see how such actually reflects.

[Ralmeth]

I hate it, too, when I join a tankable raid on my outfitted defender and get passed up for a sack of HP. I'm really excited for U11, as it will both save me 6 AP (dropping class and racial Toughness III) and get me to around 770 HP on my paladin, well into the save zone for tanking elite Horoth and even the Epic Abishai Devastator.

/Agreed! It also annoys me to no end in VoD when leaders pass up my Pally DoS for a WF DPS with lots of HP, basically every time. The last time I ran VoD the WF Barb who wanted to tank told me that I'd get killed in no time flat because I wasn't WF. So...after he died at one point, I stepped in, hit intimidate and tanked Sully with no problem (not getting cursed a single time) without even a Cleric or FS backing me up. So I can't understand why there is such a stigma for a proper AC tank to be the tank when it's clearly possible for them to do so. I'm not sure I agree that it's wanna-be S&B tanks giving other S&B tanks a bad name because I don't think those wanna-be S&B tanks are given the chance. Instead I think it's the DPS fleshy characters with no meaningful AC that don't know how to remove their own curses which makes everyone think that fleshies get cursed and killed easily. Which in turn everyone remembers when it comes to picking the tank. IMHO the only way this stigma will go away is if DoS III and Stalwart Defender III are given immunity to the healing curse.

FYI...I'm also projecting to be at 770HP while tanking come update 11. I can't wait

[grodon9999]

I almost think Kensai needs a boost...

No, but it could use a few MORE boosts. With the longer fights some more action boosts would be welcomed.