Memnir @ PAX: A Report with Artificer Info

[jjflanigan]

*edit*

[mystafyi]

full of VIPs that apparently can not afford to buy

I highly doubt the offended folks cant afford to pay. all of them pay 120/year on top of what they might spend on TP specials.

This is more about feeling cheated or ripped off by a sneaky tactic(that will be repeated if turbine gets away with it) of releasing a favor class and not having the ability to earn that favor. See, by labeling it a favor class everyone(including VIP) must purchase or unlock via favor. The Crux of the issue is the lack of favor unlock.

FvS is a favor class that was released requiring 2500 favor to unlock. VIP's didnt much care at the time since a vast majority had a toon with that amount anyway.

[Dysmetria]

I will have the points needed to unlock Artificer I am sure I will just wait on a matter of principal I do not want to worry that every time we get a new update for something we wish to enjoy that we will have to pay extra upfront to do it.

You can wait on a matter of principal if you want, but many other VIPs won't wait as they have stated in this and the many other threads about this nonissue.

You will still have to worry about whether or not you will have to pay extra upfron for the next race or class until they say otherwise, unless of course you downgrade to premium. Then you will know you will. Seeing how much you are complaining about VIP perhaps doing so will make you happier?

[Hendrik]

Yes,it would be quite a bit of grinding, but seeing as this thread is full of VIPs that apparently can not afford to buy artifiers or do not want to pay extra for them, I thought it might be an alternatie they would live with. If they start grinding now the could earn enough TP to get artificers by the time they are in the store.

So, with three favor capped characters, you want me to go favor grind 1k TP?

I can honestly say that I don't want to stop playing DDO for the next couple weeks and favor grind TP to buy a Favor Unlock class.

Issue is that ability to 'earn' is not available at the same time of purchase but several months later.

[Dysmetria]

So, with three favor capped characters, you want me to go favor grind 1k TP?

I can honestly say that I don't want to stop playing DDO for the next couple weeks and favor grind TP to buy a Favor Unlock class.

Issue is that ability to 'earn' is not available at the same time of purchase but several months later.

You can always buy the TP instead of grinding it, and support Turbine with a little extra cash by doing so.

[Kalari]

You can wait on a matter of principal if you want, but many other VIPs won't wait as they have stated in this and the many other threads about this nonissue.

You will still have to worry about whether or not you will have to pay extra upfron for the next race or class until they say otherwise, unless of course you downgrade to premium. Then you will know you will. Seeing how much you are complaining about VIP perhaps doing so will make you happier?

What would make me happy is if they came out with a set base price for subscribers that guaranteed unlocks. To me I pay for the convenience of not having to wonder or worry about what I can or cannot play. I want to support the game that has kept me around for many years thats my personal reasoning. But with stuff like this it gets hard to justify why I bother. And with 21 alts that I play going premium for me would not be as easy as it is for some. I have paid to buy extra slots all kinds of fluff items and even certain unlocks on different servers so its not about spending money its about not feeling like the VIP they labeled me as a subscriber. So if I do decide to stop paying its not to go premium its just going to be a complete good bye. If I want to be apart of a f2p mmo id go to any of the generic ones cranked out there ive been paying my sub since dec 07 un stopped and the only reason id see to stop would be leaving completely. For some that maybe harsh but to m e the wiggle room is just not there ive invested a lot in the characters Ive enjoyed maybe its my fault but its the way it is.

[mystafyi]

You can always buy the TP instead of grinding it, and support Turbine with a little extra cash by doing so.

VIP's already support turbine with $120USD+/year each and every year they play. is that not enough for you?

Really? is that your whole point all along? you want VIP subscribers to pay even more? I'm not even going to go farther...

[Chai]

You can wait on a matter of principal if you want, but many other VIPs won't wait as they have stated in this and the many other threads about this nonissue.

You will still have to worry about whether or not you will have to pay extra upfron for the next race or class until they say otherwise, unless of course you downgrade to premium. Then you will know you will. Seeing how much you are complaining about VIP perhaps doing so will make you happier?

Or how about the company sticking to one base practice so their customers know what to expect. That way people dont have to sit and wonder what the catches and gotchas are going to be each time something new happens.

I see that its so easy to just tell fully vested VIPs to go premium at their convenience. You werent singing this tune when the tables were turned and the Premium payers felt they were the ones being ripped off however. This whole "if you dont like it, switch plans," doesnt work when players have vested hundreds of dollars into one plan. Leaving that plan and switching loses them money they already spent, for participators in both. Had they known the company would just switch stances on some of these things, they would have gone with the other plan. Players made the choice based on what was best for them THEN, taking into account Turbines business practices THEN, and the conditions are not the same NOW. This is why people are irritated over what you are calling a "non issue" - which is so easy to do now that the tables are turned. This may be a non issue to you, but there are alot of people who it is an issue for, as they clearly expected something else due to previous experiences.

[Kalari]

Or how about the company sticking to one base practice so their customers know what to expect. That way people dont have to sit and wonder what the catches and gotchas are going to be each time something new happens.

I see that its so easy to just tell fully vested VIPs to go premium at their convenience. You werent singing this tune when the tables were turned and the Premium payers felt they were the ones being ripped off however. This whole "if you dont like it, switch plans," doesnt work when players have vested hundreds of dollars into one plan. Leaving that plan and switching loses them money they already spent, for participators in both. Had they known the company would just switch stances on some of these things, they would have gone with the other plan. Players made the choice based on what was best for them THEN, taking into account Turbines business practices THEN, and the conditions are not the same NOW. This is why people are irritated over what you are calling a "non issue" - which is so easy to do now that the tables are turned.

This thank you Chai I couldnt have put it better. Playing the game as I have for years now I invested a lot to have what I have now. Turbine didnt force that from me no but I got the comfort of doing so due to the way things always been. For them to start this up now its got me worried what is the point of being a subscriber if it means there will always be something I'll potentially have to pay to enjoy? It may start out small like this Artificer issue but we are still hoping for Druids whose is to say that if enough fall for the "just pay to get it out the way" for this class that they wont just introduce Druids as a class you have to pay to play period? I dont like the thought of that but can see it happening.

[Hendrik]

You can always buy the TP instead of grinding it, and support Turbine with a little extra cash by doing so.

My month sub does that now and for the past five years as well as other TP purchases above and beyond my monthly stipend.

I go well above and beyond in my support for Turbine.

[Chai]

This thank you Chai I couldnt have put it better. Playing the game as I have for years now I invested a lot to have what I have now. Turbine didnt force that from me no but I got the comfort of doing so due to the way things always been. For them to start this up now its got me worried what is the point of being a subscriber if it means there will always be something I'll potentially have to pay to enjoy? It may start out small like this Artificer issue but we are still hoping for Druids whose is to say that if enough fall for the "just pay to get it out the way" for this class that they wont just introduce Druids as a class you have to pay to play period? I dont like the thought of that but can see it happening.

Yeap exactly.

We clearly see that people do pay attention to even the slightest deviation from past precedent, which is why all these threads discussing the topic popped up over a short period of time. Many of us made decisions based on practices of the past which are being changed. The more we show we are aware of this, the more they should be thinking about having some sort of favor unlock option on day one.

[eonfreon]

The more we show we are aware of this, the more they should be thinking about having some sort of favor unlock option on day one.

I agree. I can't think of any reason why that couldn't implement an alternative and functional Favor unlock system.
Then they could have marketed that the class was unlockable from Favor like the FvS or purchaseable from the store. And then they could have announced that House C favor would also eventually unlock Artificer as well in the next update.

Then Turbine would have looked much less "miserly"; look less shady I guess. Heck, they would have been adding options rather then limiting them and we could've praised them for thinking ahead.

Oh well. As always communication would be the key factor in many of our decisions.

[Calebro]

Many of us made decisions based on practices of the past which are being changed.

I'll start by saying that I agree that this should be available to VIPs.
But I find it funny that for you, this is a perfectly valid argument when it suits your purposes, but you argue that it's not a valid reason when it doesn't suit your purposes (namely payment status being directly related to game mechanics).
That was part of our argument regarding the bravery bonus, and you attempted to refute that argument, only to use that very argument yourself in this case.

[oradafu]

I'll start by saying that I agree that this should be available to VIPs.
But I find it funny that for you, this is a perfectly valid argument when it suits your purposes, but you argue that it's not a valid reason when it doesn't suit your purposes (namely payment status being directly related to game mechanics).
That was part of our argument regarding the bravery bonus, and you attempted to refute that argument, only to use that very argument yourself in this case.

At least someone in the company acknowledged the discussion about the Bravery Bonus the day the information came out. For example you had this reply, which suggested a solution that you didn't like:

Not trying to sway the debate here (and it's an interesting one for sure), but technically you DO have a store option - you can purchase the Hard or Elite unlocks. You may not want to do this, I'm just pointing it out.

If the premium route is viewed as pay-as-you-go (which it is in my humble opinion), then a store solution to this dilemna seems to be fair, no? Price may be another matter, but you only need one person to open it for the party.

Then three hours later you received this, which hinted that the company might be willing to move from their position:

I applaud your restraint, Cyr.

I'm really just piping in here to say that I've read all posts so far and appreciate the contructive debate.

This Artificer/VIP access debate has being going on for two days. No one besides Cordovan has acknowledge these threads...and he has basically only said, "yup it's true" followed by "play nice everyone".

VIPs are told by Customer Service that if they have a problem with their service, post it on the forums. So far, it appears that the company is willing to talk, almost instantly, to non-VIPs about their preceived service problems on the forums.... but not a peep to the VIPs concerns. Not even a "we're having a second look at the situation" that could later be turned into a "we looked into it and we ain't do nothing about" later on. But the company could at least acknowledge there are angry customers on this issue.

[Calebro]

But the company could at least acknowledge there are angry customers on this issue.

I agree, which I thought I made clear by stating that I agree.
I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of accepting a specific reason for one topic, and refuting that same reason in a different topic.

[Chai]

I'll start by saying that I agree that this should be available to VIPs.
But I find it funny that for you, this is a perfectly valid argument when it suits your purposes, but you argue that it's not a valid reason when it doesn't suit your purposes (namely payment status being directly related to game mechanics).
That was part of our argument regarding the bravery bonus, and you attempted to refute that argument, only to use that very argument yourself in this case.

And while youre saying this is contradictory, it is not, because my major pet peeve is when the company goes against the precedent they themselves set over long periods of time. In BOTH cases, we made the choices we did under specific conditions. Changing the conditions in EITHER case is what I disagree with, as it devalues one, or possibly both, plans. They now have a track record of 0-2 for me on those recent discussions, as the plan I chose under specific conditions is devalued each time.

If I pay VIP for 2 years then go premium -vs- having gone premium from the beginning, all the money paid to be VIP is lost. I paid to play content they could have bought on day one. On the converse, If I went premium for 2 years then went VIP, all the money spent on packs for 2 years is lost. I bought packs that Im now paying flat fees to play anyhow? This is why people get irritated when companies change their practices that have been in place for quite some time now. Switching plans after 2 years of paying into the system the other way is not a solution. This works for people who are deciding on which plan they want to participate in currently, but not for long time customers.

The fact still remains that we made specific choices under specific conditions, and those conditions have now been altered. These are the things that make good paying customers tighten their belts over the long term.

And of course all this, when the easy enough option of having some sort of favor unlock on day one solves the entire issue, stops the debate...oh wait, but it doesnt make as much money.

[Hokiewa]

VIPs are told by Customer Service that if they have a problem with their service, post it on the forums. So far, it appears that the company is willing to talk, almost instantly, to non-VIPs about their preceived service problems on the forums.... but not a peep to the VIPs concerns. Not even a "we're having a second look at the situation" that could later be turned into a "we looked into it and we ain't do nothing about" later on. But the company could at least acknowledge there are angry customers on this issue.

This is pretty solid. No bickering, just a decent statement. I've an inkling as to a decision that will be announced but it's not going to make subs happy. I wonder when "premium packs" will be favor unlocked or purchasable by subs...

They could surprise me, but I see the path before all of us and it doesn't have 3 branches.....

[mystafyi]

These are the things that make good paying customers tighten their belts over the long term.

chai, it appears that the powers to be at turbine have decided only the short term matters. The reason why is unknown of course, but when any company throws away long term goals for short ones.....

[Zaodon]

While the calendar can always change based on a variety of factors, the plan is to have Artificers available to unlock through favor by the end of the year.

Wow, what complete B.S. DDO is really going down hill.

[eonfreon]

chai, it appears that the powers to be at turbine have decided only the short term matters. The reason why is unknown of course, but when any company throws away long term goals for short ones.....

That really remains to be seen. The fact that at the present there is some confusion as to which is the "better" or preferred method of membership and payment for some individuals does not mean that Turbine is thinking short term over long term.

DDO likely cannot survive as a purely pay-for-subscription service. Likely their model is a combination of Subs and Pay-as-you-go. And I really believe that the Pay-as-you-go method is more profitable for them. And when I say Pay-as-you-go I also include Subscriptions, because when you think of it Subscriptions are also Pay-as-you-go but at a more consistent rate. Especially since Subscription payers may also use the store for all sorts of reasons, from the game enhancing to the purely cosmetic and adding to the money they spend in any given period. However, I believe that Subscriptions alone are not enough. Likely it is less by a large margin (my guess) than the money made on Pay-as-you-go, when you seperate the two.

Of course, I am pulling this speculation from my own observations and not from any official statement. I merely make this observation from my own experiences and understanding of business.