Are staves now affected by character level?

[Gorbadoc]

Your logic is like saying:

If I take a car and cut off the top then it becomes a convertible
Because the car without the top is a convertible, that must mean ALL cars are convertibles.

Actually, yes-- if people believed "convertible" meant "physically capable of having the top removed". You can see the flaw in that definition of "convertible".

That makes no sense -- the ddo logic, whether we like it or not, is at least being applied consistently -- if a class casts spells it is a casting class. If a class does NOT cast spells it is not a casting class.

That's not wrong, but its rightness hinges on a point of semantics. Fighters can use Melt Wood Staves, same as every other class. When the player clicks a button and Melf's Acid Arrow pops out on the screen, has the character just cast a spell or not? Melf's Acid Arrow is certainly a spell. We have a naming convention that distinguishes between "casting a spell" and "activating an item", but when the result is a thing that looks like a spell, feels like a spell, and has the name of a spell, it becomes clear that the naming convention is more than a little arbitrary.

The energy within a staff is formed for a specific spell, and if unleashed without interference, would be cast at the level at which it was imbued.
However, if the user can cast the spell, they can use the preformed energy to fuel their own, superior incarnation.

That makes sense to me. But I figure many classes should be able to "fake it"-- they couldn't form their own incantation from scratch (the spell isn't on their list), but they should be able to craft some stronger magic by using the staff's power as a starter. A paladin using a staff with a spell from the cleric list, for example, shouldn't be quite as good at it as a cleric, but he should be better than, say, a wizard (I'm pretty sure arcane and divine magic are still treated as radically different areas of study in 3.5). I'm not optimistic that we'll get anything so subtle, but we can hope.

[Gorbadoc]

Does the gighter get spell points?

Yes, but he can use them ONLY to cast his one spell (so he can't use them on other classes' spells by multiclassing). This is to reflect the way spell slots work in PnP.

[Shade]

Yea kinda confused by this too.

Guess my barbarian has no caster level .. Cuz my TS clicky staff is still just 11 minutes.

So only classes that get spell casting get effected by this bonus eh?

meh was hoping this was more of a general bonus, given staves with clickies are generally not as good as 1hander types.

And yea ranger/pal CL = half there level in pnp.. but not in DDO.. So this is a nice bonus for them.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Caster_level

So guess this benefits every class except:
bbn
ftr
monk
rog

Wonder if savant gets the bonus they deserve - EG Fire savant with a triple fire GS Qstaff gets CL26 DBF.
The wording makes it sounds like no.. But really they should get that since Savant otherwise adds such crappy bonuses.

[TreknaQudane]

Wonder if savant gets the bonus they deserve - EG Fire savant with a triple fire GS Qstaff gets CL26 DBF.
The wording makes it sounds like no.. But really they should get that since Savant otherwise adds such crappy bonuses.

Savants -should- have an Elemental Form like Pale Master's have Undead but we don't get that... They should also have +2 DCs to spells that match their element.

[Mister_Peace]

Yes, but he can use them ONLY to cast his one spell (so he can't use them on other classes' spells by multiclassing). This is to reflect the way spell slots work in PnP.

That isn't how spell points work in DDO.

[TreknaQudane]

That isn't how spell points work in DDO.

Shush you, there's no place for logic and facts in this thread.

[Jaid314]

strictly speaking, pen and paper staves (at least the kind they're talking about here) should actually be more like wands. they're spell trigger items, iirc. not sure about the name, but very sure they should be like wands.

note that UMD can actually let you fake a caster level, as i recall...

[Brennie]

And yea ranger/pal CL = half there level in pnp.. but not in DDO.. So this is a nice bonus for them.

To be fair, probably 99% of rangers and paladins in DDO have absolute junk for their primary casting stat (14 *with* items is the norm for knowledgeable players, and even newbies and monk splashes don't get a whole lot higher than that).

As per this:

NEW: All spells cast from two-handed staves now use the wielder's caster level as well as calculate their DC's using the wielder's casting ability score, if they are better than the staff's default values.

The DCs on the items will still be awful. So any staves with no saves (pillar of light/meltwood staff/anything that is buff, heal, or curative based that doesn't exist yet) will see a boost, but anything with saves attached will still be just as useless. So all in all, its about half a boost, ironically emulating the half-a-caster-class from pen and paper

Total sidenote: I'm really hoping that High casting stat casters may find that a decent everbright quarterstaff can function as an oozebeater and a pretty decent crowd control clicky to boot! Unfortunately, i have not tested this yet, and my past experience with blinding flash is limited, since I could never make it land in the first place. Still, if it works, could be pretty spifftastic!

[Detton]

That's not wrong, but its rightness hinges on a point of semantics. Fighters can use Melt Wood Staves, same as every other class. When the player clicks a button and Melf's Acid Arrow pops out on the screen, has the character just cast a spell or not? Melf's Acid Arrow is certainly a spell. We have a naming convention that distinguishes between "casting a spell" and "activating an item", but when the result is a thing that looks like a spell, feels like a spell, and has the name of a spell, it becomes clear that the naming convention is more than a little arbitrary.

It's only arbitrary if you're trying to push for something (I'm not implying that you are) such as a fighter being counted as a caster.

It's an item that, when used, produces a spell effect. It's not "casting" a spell. If it seems arbitrary to you, then that is - honestly - your problem. (A general "you" and "your", not targeting you in particular). In DDO, and PNP, it wasn't simply an arbitrary decision, even if the end-result appears to look the same. It was made that way because fighters AREN'T casters. Wizards are casters. Ergo, wizards use staffs better then fighters. Fighters can still use them, but they won't be as good. Because they aren't casters. =)

Imagine, if you will, a situation with a fighter having the Melt Wood Staff facing off against a wizard. The fighter will raise the staff high, activate it, and the staff throws the spell at the wizard, inflicting him with a painful, acidic bolt.

The wizard then waves his hand at the fighter and lights him up like a roman candle.

That's why the fighter isn't a caster. Because he's a chump. A chump that cant cast and thinks that waving a stick around makes him like a wizard.

I got off-track there, but the point I'm trying to make is that bears are godless killing machines that are a threat to all of us.

And they aren't casters.

Even with a stick in their mouths.

[Malky]

Does the gighter get spell points?

Nope they get tpell points actually, pretty much like eighters get rpell points

[Gorbadoc]

That isn't how spell points work in DDO.

That's true only of the classes paladin, ranger, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, favored soul, bard, and artificer. Gighter spell points work the way I described.

There are other ways I could have answered and still kept the spirit of the thought experiment. For example, "Yes, gighters get a number of spell points, but they also have a special feat that removes all those spell points if they ever take a level in another class with spell points."

strictly speaking, pen and paper staves (at least the kind they're talking about here) should actually be more like wands. they're spell trigger items, iirc. not sure about the name, but very sure they should be like wands.

note that UMD can actually let you fake a caster level, as i recall...

I'm glad you posted this. There's no especially intuitive reason why staves and wands should work one way or the other. A staff is a thing that makes magic happen-- is it an arcane conduit? Is it an imitation of an arcane caster? Does it empower its user to imitate an arcane caster? I remember something about spell triggers from the 3.5 rules, too; however, when the rules were being written, common sense about magic didn't dictate that it HAD to be that way. I don't think the choice was completely arbitrary, though: the game designers thought about what would make the game balanced. But then I'm recognizing that lore is, at least in some cases, based on what would make the game balanced. Once we accept this as a fact, we get a whole new category of arguments on this topic.

Previously, it was arguments from common sense on what magic is: "Fighters aren't magical, therefore they don't deserve special staff powers."

Now, we can consider arguments from common sense about game balance: "For reasons X, Y, and Z, it would be imbalanced for paladins to get these new staff powers while fighters didn't."

It's only arbitrary if you're trying to push for something (I'm not implying that you are) such as a fighter being counted as a caster.

It's an item that, when used, produces a spell effect. It's not "casting" a spell. If it seems arbitrary to you, then that is - honestly - your problem....

That's why the fighter isn't a caster. Because he's a chump. A chump that cant cast and thinks that waving a stick around makes him like a wizard.

The arbitrariness is there whether we notice it or not. But I may just be splitting hairs: You're right that someone will focus on the arbitrariness if they're trying to argue that fighter = caster.

There is another reason to focus on the arbitrariness, though: If you're a philosopher or an architect-- if you actually enjoy viewing a system from multiple angles simultaneously, seeing how the various parts might be said to interact to make up the whole, even while questioning those interactions in case there's another way of interpreting things.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last point: Fighters have a seemingly supernatural understanding of how how to swing a sword or absorb a hit, but it's not magic the way wizards and clerics understand the term.

Nope they get tpell points actually, pretty much like eighters get rpell points

Okay, that was good.

[Mister_Peace]

The gighter seems to have some complex, arbitrary, and ... arcane ... rules that the fighter does not.

[Aragorn41]

OK all. you have me REALLY confused here. If the OP was referring to the Artificer "Capstone" how can that possibly affect any other casting class using staves??? It's a level 20 benefit for just Artificers as i can see it now.

So hmmm...what did i miss here???

Edit: OP quoted the wrong post, no wonder i wasn't following along in the conversation lol

From Lam release notes:

NEW: All spells cast from two-handed staves now use the wielder's caster level as well as calculate their DC's using the wielder's casting ability score, if they are better than the staff's default values.

So it looks like all casting classes will get the benefit to staves, and Artificers will get that same benefit plus the same benefit added to all wands and clickies as well as staves. pretty straight forward to me now. lol