Suggested changes to Divine Punishment (and possibly other dots)

[AtomicMew]

Preface:

I think it's clear that DP need to be nerfed, but I dislike the suggestion to simply add a saving throw. This nerfs STR based, CON based and CHA based divines without having any effect on WIS based divines. I don't think that is fair because 1) it is a retroactive change, and 2) DP needs to be nerfed across the board anyway.


Suggestion:

Decrease fully stacked DPS, increase ease of use and keep SP efficiency at the same level (e.g., damage per SP spent). This could be done in many ways, but here is a specific suggestion:

Increase DP duration to 20 seconds (from 15)
Increase recharge to 12 seconds
Increase damage by 25%

This will result in a divine punishment that is two-stackable (rather than three), maintain similar SP efficiency, and an overall nerf of 16.7% off of fully stacked DPS.

In addition, it will be easier to use. It will be more feasible to use against non-boss single targets and the cost if a full stack expires due to lag, mobs flying away (jailer, judge) or whatever will be less.

[jillie]

I think it's clear that DP need to be nerfed,

You lost me here. Truly, the constant calls for nerfs are wearing on me. I'm not trying to single you out, OP, nor I mean to dismiss the thought you've obviously put into this.

But I think it's clear that calls for nerf this and nerf that need themselves to be nerfed.

[Rodasch]

Preface:

I think it's clear that DP need to be nerfed, but I dislike the suggestion to simply add a saving throw. This nerfs STR based, CON based and CHA based divines without having any effect on WIS based divines. I don't think that is fair because 1) it is a retroactive change, and 2) DP needs to be nerfed across the board anyway.


Suggestion:

Decrease fully stacked DPS, increase ease of use and keep SP efficiency at the same level (e.g., damage per SP spent). This could be done in many ways, but here is a specific suggestion:

Increase DP duration to 20 seconds (from 15)
Increase recharge to 12 seconds
Increase damage by 25%

This will result in a divine punishment that is two-stackable (rather than three), maintain similar SP efficiency, and an overall nerf of 16.7% off of fully stacked DPS.

In addition, it will be easier to use. It will be more feasible to use against non-boss single targets and the cost if a full stack expires due to lag, mobs flying away (jailer, judge) or whatever will be less.

There are several problems with your suggestion, even if I agreed with the premise of your post (and I've not decided yet whether that's the case.)

1.) If DP needs nerfing, it does not need to be made stronger per cast, but rather weaker per cast so that it MUST be stacked to be strong, making it harder to use it while kiting, not easier to use while kiting. Therefore, your two stack idea for longer duration is a poor suggestion for "nerfing" the spell.

2.) The primary reason DP is the single best dps spell in the game (even more than either arcane dot) is the "element" which comprises it. There are very few monsters resistant to light damage, and many who take double or even quadruple damage from light based spells. Add to that the AoV ability to magnify light damage and the spell goes into ludicrous speed.

Now, that being said, I agree with a few things:

1.) Adding a saving throw is a horrible idea, as the reiterative nature of the dot and it's stackability make the saving throw notion non-linear in scaling and results in very hard to pin down variance in damage, not a simple scalar reduction.

2.) DP should work equally well for wis focused and non-wis focused divines. The only "save" it should encounter is a spell resistance check or light resistance/immunity.


What we have to remember is that DP is built on the same spell frame as niac's biting cold and eladar's electric surge, and the only difference in the three spells is the element which comprises them. Any change to one spell will be a change to all of them, unless that spell is moved off of that archetype and written differently. That being said we should be careful what we ask for on any one of them as it could have unforseen ramifications on the other spells which might already be facing other balancing factors (such as elemental resistances/immunities).

Therefore, the only way to balance DP fairly is to re-evaluate the element it targets and the relative resistance to that element amid the monsters and content faced and balance it that way first...once it is balanced with the other two DoT spells on the same framework, then you can look at balancing "the DoTs" as a whole with sweeping changes to the spell archetype as a whole if DP is still so emasculating to those who don't have it.

[GotSomeQuestions]

Increase DP duration to 20 seconds (from 15)
Increase recharge to 12 seconds
Increase damage by 25%

This will result in a divine punishment that is two-stackable (rather than three)

I don't see why that would stop you from creating a 3-stack. Each new cast resets the duration, so if you can stack it twice, you can stack it three times. You'd have to change the coding of the spell itself to allow only double stacking. Which you could do, but it'd be separate from changing the duration or cooldown.

[AtomicMew]

I don't see why that would stop you from creating a 3-stack. Each new cast resets the duration, so if you can stack it twice, you can stack it three times. You'd have to change the coding of the spell itself to allow only double stacking. Which you could do, but it'd be separate from changing the duration or cooldown.

You're right. I should have said it should be changed to two-stackable, not as a result of the proposed changes.

1.) If DP needs nerfing, it does not need to be made stronger per cast, but rather weaker per cast so that it MUST be stacked to be strong, making it harder to use it while kiting, not easier to use while kiting. Therefore, your two stack idea for longer duration is a poor suggestion for "nerfing" the spell.

It seems like you are saying that the problem here is kiting. Maybe instead of nerfing wings and DP across the board, we should give bosses something like an AoE version of this: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Weaken_Knees

[Rodasch]

It seems like you are saying that the problem here is kiting. Maybe instead of nerfing wings and DP across the board, we should give bosses something like an AoE version of this: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Weaken_Knees

What I'm saying is that the strength of DP lies in the fact that you can hit one key while either running/winging, or shield blocking and do substantial dps, and your option makes it do more dps easier and faster and keeps it easier to maintain, which feeds in to all the areas that make people feel it's overpowered in the first place.

Furthermore, making it do more damage per tick for longer makes it less impacted by elemental resistances, easier to maintain while kiting or shield blocking, and overall allows for more "in between" addition of dps, further enabling it as a dps monster major contributor, meaning all non casters of DoT spells will cry more.

The spell doesn't need reworking yet, content needs to be retuned to account for the addition of a massive damage light spell, which prior to u9 simply did not exist, period.

Up til that point, the higest damage light spell was sunburst, and everything lower (searing light, etc) was even worse damage per cast, even fully AP enhanced by divines. When they took the model for the most powerful arcane DoTs created to date, and slapped "Light" on it as a type, they failed to compensate with content to balance it, and we have the current problem with DP seeming so overpowered.

1,800-2,000dmg per tick, triple-stacked? No arcanes are getting that on niacs or eladar's even with savant curses, max elemental AP's, metas, and eardweller ticking. Not even close to that. Savants are averaging 250-350 dps from their triple stacked dots, that's an average tick of 500-700 on a 75% elemental clicky and maxed AP/metas for the element. add 15% for savant curse and you still are way below DP numbers for AoV debuff enhanced non-vulnerable monsters.

[Eso]

no thanks.

just add a save and problem done.

[tikwid]

no thanks.

just add a save and problem done.

no

[ShadowFlash]

Divines finally get a DoT spell AND a good reason to take the VERY EXPENSIVE smiting line, making them very AP tight if they are to maintain healing, and the answer is a SAVE? nope...poor simplistic answer. Under this suggestion, any Divine would have to go max-caster and even then, would have difficulties. "Nerf" DP when sorcerers get nerfed as well. I would REALLY like to see the math (assuming no resistances) on a cleric RSII lvl 20 with Abashi-set (CL25=3d6+85) fully geared/specced casting DP WITH a FvS proccing 2-3 levels of the debuff for 20-30% vulnerability (should be the expected average under U11) which should be the maximum DP damage attainable VS. a max geared sorcerers DoT under expected average conditions.

Now, tweaking "some" enemies to gain light resistance is a viable solution "IF" it must be nerfed at all. I don't think it needs adjustment, seeing as Divine's have basically NO DIVERSITY OPTIONS when it comes to damage dealing spells. Divines have no offensive enhancement lines other than light, cannot make a choice or weigh the pro's and cons of savants, or use SLA's as they level.

Frankly, I think it's just blatant jealousy now that divines can actually deal respectable damage and can finally join the ranks of spellcasters and shed the "heal/buff-bot" stigmata.

And please please please don't ignore the poor average cleric in these "nerf" threads, as for them, unlike the FvS, a significant sacrifice in SP has to be made just to triple stack it once, much less maintain it.

Adding saves to DoT's and stripping anyone other than pure-caster builds of offensive spellcasting power was never mentioned under Tukaw Builds which relied on no save/no SR spells pre-DP...why now? A melee spec divine already sacrifices all forms of CC and expects 1/2 damage BB's (with no ability to enhance other than arcane lore). Why not allow them the ONE VERY SMALL line of offensive spells they can actually use. Balance if these cases are self-controlled due to the lack of SP these builds usually result in. It's not like a cleric can "spam" these willy-nilly.

My 2 cp
ShadowFlash

[PNellesen]

Can't we have ONE way of doing real damage to bosses, while at the same time keeping the meatshields alive?

Please leave DP the way it is, at least for Clerics.

Thanks!

TL;DR - /notsigned

[likuei]

Divines finally get a DoT spell AND a good reason to take the VERY EXPENSIVE smiting line, making them very AP tight if they are to maintain healing, and the answer is a SAVE? nope...poor simplistic answer.

Divine's have basically NO DIVERSITY OPTIONS when it comes to damage dealing spells. Divines have no offensive enhancement lines other than light...

Frankly, I think it's just blatant jealousy now that divines can actually deal respectable damage and can finally join the ranks of spellcasters and shed the "heal/buff-bot" stigmata.

And please please please don't ignore the poor average cleric in these "nerf" threads, as for them, unlike the FvS, a significant sacrifice in SP has to be made just to triple stack it once, much less maintain it.

Why not allow them the ONE VERY SMALL line of offensive spells they can actually use. Balance if these cases are self-controlled due to the lack of SP these builds usually result in. It's not like a cleric can "spam" these willy-nilly.

Most melee are crying nerf for ALL casters ... please fix your statement. And those that are saying they have the characters and still believe they are OP are not being honest about that statement ... they dislike being a caster class (they only play to get completionist) and most likely hate being a support class all together.

[Hutoth]

nerf = no

[Templarion]

This game seriously needs balancing. Certain classes are clearly more powerful and useful than others. And buffing is not an option, since it only makes the game overall easier - unless we are talking about buffing the mobs which doesn't help making different classes equally useful.

Please, either make all classes equally useful or remove the inferior ones.

I am starting to /sign every kind of nerf post I see because something must be done.


PS. I am writing this as an caster lover myself.

[Sandheart]

A nerf to DP is inevitable. It is very powerful even with the light enchantments. I don't think anyone is viewing the OP in the right light. He(or she) is not calling for a Nerf-simply giving an idea to tune it down without making it worthless.

IMO adding a save is not the answer, every divine who is not caster focused will have no reason to take the spell, as there DC won't be high enough to matter. The OP has given has given a great way to tune down DP without making it worthless. This idea would not hurt melee based FvS or clerics. When faced with DoTs getting a save, or Dots getting tuned down a bit I would pick this as it won't hurt melee FvS or clerics, and caster FvS/clerics will still have great DPS using DP.

[SirValentine]

I think it's clear that DP need to be nerfed

No, it's not clear at all.

Divines can finally have a nice damage spell other than BB, and now the shut-and-hjeal-me types are jealous and want to nerf it.

but I dislike the suggestion to simply add a saving throw. This nerfs STR based, CON based and CHA based divines without having any effect on WIS based divines. I don't think that is fair because 1) it is a retroactive change, and 2) DP needs to be nerfed across the board anyway.

I don't agree it needs a nerf, but if it did, what's wrong with a save? So divine builds that dumped their offensive spell-casting would have...TA-DA!...inferior spell-casting.

ANY nerf is a retroactive change, so that's no argument.

[Autechre]

IMO adding a save is not the answer, every divine who is not caster focused will have no reason to take the spell, as there DC won't be high enough to matter.

I am signed with adding a saving throw. Not caster focused divines/arcanes would still do damage just half of it, shouldnt there be a tradeoff ?

[Aerendil]

Without DP, divines have no real way of damaging non-moving targets or highly evasive targets.

What, you want me to Searing Light that 1000hp mob down? Umm...yeah. That should only take me 3/4 of my SP bar.

Blade Barrier is *just* as powerful, and has been since day 1, and the devs have never seen fit to castrate that spell.
Round up 3/4 of a dungeon, maximize a BB (which I can do for FREE, thank you to eOrnamented Dagger), and then watch as trolls, bugbears, ogres, and anything else that blindly follows me in this game walks through it and dies.

As others have mentioned above, Divine Punishment is the only recourse for any offensive damage against a good number of targets. That, and the fact you have to spend some noticeable points to make it truly powerful, in my eyes make it balanced.
I've had a *maximum* of 1300 on DP before, and that required:
- stacked 3 times
- enemy debuffed 2 times with Condemnation, which is hard to stack - you need a fast hitting mob
- spell crit
- maximized spell
- full smiting line, including +40% base damage and 9% crit chance

Chances are most tics, even on the 3rd stacking, are for far less than 1300, fyi.

If you want to nerf this, then how about every other DoT in the game, hmm? Niac's? Eladar's? How are they any different?

PS - the real advantage to DP isn't that it's a huge damager. The damage per SP cost is actually not that great until you get it fully stacked, and that will ONLY ever happen for a boss mob. The real advantage IMO is that a FvS can take advantage of their level 20 DR 10/whatever + turtling behind a shield to create pretty invincible DR, and then keep DP up via Quicken (uninterruptable) and Quickened Heal themselves when needed (or quickened/maximized CLW spell-like ability for 0 SP, which I've had hit for 100+).

[ShadowFlash]

I like casters a lot. Still, imo, the casters are too strong. They can self-heal, self-buff and DPS. It is just not right that one class can do everything in MMO game. I could also ask, why cannot a fighter self-heal and self-buff himself? No need to answer.

In MMO every class should have their own role. At the moment, the casters are simply the best choice if you start a new character because they can do everything themselves.

I don't like the idea of buffing other classes because that would simply make the game equally easy for every class. I want the game to be equally difficult and challenging for all. That's what we want: challenging and teamplay focused game, right?

Don't worry. Diablo 3 is soon here, there you can pwn hundreds of mobs alone without anyone's help and that is the game meant for exactly that. In addition, Diablo 3 is not MMO. See the difference here?

Ah...the 'ole "know your role" attempt at an argument with a little "other MMO cheese and whine" thrown in for good measure. DP=go play Diablo3...priceless...thanks for the laugh.

[R0cksteady]

People really fear nerfs eh?

Ir's part of an MMO, it's balancing. It's easier to nerf a few classes than to buff every other class and then make the game harder, with the same effect.

Yeah, DOTs need to be nerfed. I have a Wizard, a Cleric and a FvS, and use DOTs often, but I'd understand if they were nerfed because it's harmful to the game to have all kinds of unbalances between classes.

I don't even use my Melees anymore. I have a third life fighter (Fighters definitely need a boost by the way, not just because of casters but because Barbs do so much more damage, especially after the next update when damage boost becomes so powerful) and a monk. But what's the point in playing them? I can do more damage with my FvS, keep the party alive, buff and has great survivability.

It's just a completely unbalancing effect for them to do more damage than melees. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to damage bosses much, but tone it down a bit. Add damage without putting melees to shame, since that's really their only purpose.

[goblean]

I like casters a lot. Still, imo, the casters are too strong. They can self-heal, self-buff and DPS. It is just not right that one class can do everything in MMO game. I could also ask, why cannot a fighter self-heal and self-buff himself? No need to answer.

You seem confused, so I will answer. A fighter and every other class can do those things. Maybe not quite as well, but they can still do them.