HowTo: Balance Casters & make it more D&D

[Yunico]

If you feel that Casters are OP in DDO, then its exactly like in PnP: at low lvls, caster were totally dependent on their party members providing protection, but at higher levels, they became lamost godlike (Wish-Spell anyone)?

[danotmano1998]

to account for lag and weird geometry issues (LOS/blocking), too?

Good point.

I think what he's referring to are those spells that don't hit their target due to little engine bugs, etc..
To me, I'd say a spell wasted is a spell wasted.

[gloopygloop]

PS. I know DnD =/= DDO. I would just like to see more, certain elements from DnD in DDO.

The funny thing about your suggestion is that it would actually end up having the effect of taking DDO even further away from D&D because in D&D, anything over around 7th level or so is either a primary caster or a complete waste of party space if you're looking for raw power. If you have a party that is a mix of well built melee characters and well built Arcane or Divine casting characters, the melee characters will end up just acting as cheerleaders while the primary casters throw their save-or-lose spells with high DCs.

There are lots of other reasons to not make this change. Here are a few.

D&D gets far fewer encounters per rest.
D&D pits player characters against enemies that don't have blanket immunities that can't be dispelled.
D&D pits player characters against enemies with fewer than 100,000 HP.

[danotmano1998]

D&D gets far fewer encounters per rest.
D&D pits player characters against enemies that don't have blanket immunities that can't be dispelled.
D&D pits player characters against enemies with fewer than 100,000 HP.

Forget the enounters per rest. In his OP and many other times, he's not saying give us X slots, he's saying give us the equivalent of X slots, DDO Style.
So if D&D had, say, 6 1st level slots, the DDO equivalent of that (Based on the monsters in DDO, immunities, HP increases, etc.) might end up being 54 1st level slots..


LOL.. Now that I think about it..
I wonder what that would work out to?

1st - 354 slots
2nd - 250 slots
3rd - 175
4th ???

I think this alone may make the idea prohibitive.

[janave]

Any nerf to the casters will just make them even more gear dependent. Which is just a template design in most mmo-s. I actually appreciated that fact the i didnt need to harvest the yber gears over and over to be able to progress with a class.

Actually a boost to the other classes would be the solution, so when they compared to a caster they dont feel bad about their class .

The only thing a nerf will bring to the casters is that the 28/32 pt builds who get tomes and good gears a lot later will be handicapped. While those with 3 past life feats, and topped gears, saved up twink, tomes +2/+3.. etc will still be overpowered, but they worked for it before

It is simply bad judgement on toons that worked for greater power. Picking up your greater focus item, and the +3 exceptional stat gs weapon at lvl12 - esp if you happened to save up a +3/+4 rare tome - you will indeed rule some content. However everyone should clearly see that achieveing this has probably costs months of grinding.

I never seen a 28pt adventurer caster with average equipment being overpowered, they die a lot. Vulnerability is the cost of being a cannon. There are exceptions with great player skill, however the judgement shouldnt be based on them either, their skill adds to that overpoweredness greatly.

This is a coop game, and it is bad enough that ppl still discriminate toons, based on class/es, hp, or whatever. I got rejected from many groups by not meeting a certain amount of hp. If a nerf takes place casters will need 400hp, a towershield, and all the buffs the melees prescribe for you, before they take you in. -.-

The game is already one dimensional for endgame content, forum copy builds rule, dual kopeshes and greataxe for everyone because someone did the math.

powercreep needs nerf, nothing else,

balance is here, it is called strategy.

[Templarion]

Forget the enounters per rest. In his OP and many other times, he's not saying give us X slots, he's saying give us the equivalent of X slots, DDO Style.
So if D&D had, say, 6 1st level slots, the DDO equivalent of that (Based on the monsters in DDO, immunities, HP increases, etc.) might end up being 54 1st level slots..


LOL.. Now that I think about it..
I wonder what that would work out to?

1st - 354 slots
2nd - 250 slots
3rd - 175
4th ???

I think this alone may make the idea prohibitive.

Yeah. That's why I also said that a different interface would be required. Different than Baldur's Gate had. Managing hundreds of slots could be pain without an excellent GUI. I am happy that at least one here understood what I am aiming at.

I would +rep you if I could for understanding what I mean but as f2p player I cannot.

[MichelYoh]

Well, spell points are simple, and DDO, as a MMO, wants to keep things simpler, as more ppl can join.
Besides, the game has been using the spell points system for too long, and a change right now would mean a lot of efforts from the devs, meaning less new content.

The spell slot system would work, if well-done. (actually, you know, anything well-done can work, right?)

Though, some problems it would cause:
- Sorcs would be prefered in parties, because they dont need to prepare their spells. (if the wizard is stopping in all shrines to change his spells, he would delay the party)
- FvS and Clerics would suffer a lot of whinning, especially from ppl that dont know how many cures they've already cast. (you cant see his blue bar now, can you?)
- You cant Meta high level spells. (not really a problem, but you wouldnt see Mass Heals anymore)

Well, lets stop with the problems here and look a bit on the bright side:

- Ppl that learned to play the caster role would really shine.
- You'd have to think twice before casting a spell. (actually, you did need to do this before U9)
- Managing spell slots means Wizards and Clerics would have the real versatility at the cost of time.

Just adding some more thought, even though we know this wont happen.

[r3dl4nce]

Managing hundreds of slots could be pain without an excellent GUI.

But in DDo you already manage hundred of spell slots with an excellent GUI. It's a blue bar under your red-hp bar.
The blue bar is simply the visual way to show hundreds of spell slots.

[Ebonta]

Hey, don't be so scared. The amount of nerf really isn't as big as you clearly first thought. As I said, the exact number of spell slots should be calculated and well tested before putting to use. It would only force casters to use multiple different spells instead of a few, clearly most useful ones. More variation, the better, right?

And as I said, some spells could be made actually radically more powerful. So you could really feel the power in your hands when you decide to use them.

It is as big a nerf as they thought. Aside from rendering quite a few items that are currently in-game useless (Torc, Conc-Opp...), we only use the spells that are useful because the rest, well, suck. I assume this also applies to healers, so... when I'm trying to heal ToD, I don't want to be limited to casting Heal 6 times between shrines or something... you would have to re-balance everything in the game.

[Templarion]

Well, spell points are simple, and DDO, as a MMO, wants to keep things simpler, as more ppl can join.
<snip>
Well, lets stop with the problems here and look a bit on the bright side:

- Ppl that learned to play the caster role would really shine.
- You'd have to think twice before casting a spell. (actually, you did need to do this before U9)
- Managing spell slots means Wizards and Clerics would have the real versatility at the cost of time.

Just adding some more thought, even though we know this wont happen.

True. I, again, forgot that the gaming industry is aiming to easy to master type of games which just have lots of repetative content.

Personally I like to think that casual gamers could choose melee classes and power gamers seeking for more challenge would choose casters. Those who learnt the new, "hard to master" system would be rewarded with great power.

It is as big a nerf as they thought. Aside from rendering quite a few items that are currently in-game useless (Torc, Conc-Opp...), we only use the spells that are useful because the rest, well, suck. I assume this also applies to healers, so... when I'm trying to heal ToD, I don't want to be limited to casting Heal 6 times between shrines or something... you would have to re-balance everything in the game.

Of course the items should be redone. This would increase the work amount but could be still done. Possibilities of the new item effects would be various - even more various than in "the spell point"-system. Also new feats could be created.

And about that nerf part, I still say no. It would only force casters to use their full spell arsenal and not only a few obviously the best spells. They would still have those "solution for everything"-spells but playing a caster would also require a better strategic eye and using a correct spell in a correct place would be an excellent addition to the difficulty of the game.

[DevHead]

Ahhh, to make DDO more like DnD.....well......you'd have to un-nerf Elemental Savant. If you don't know what I mean, look up the prestige class in the PnP books sometime, you'll see what I mean....

[Templarion]

Ahhh, to make DDO more like DnD.....well......you'd have to un-nerf Elemental Savant. If you don't know what I mean, look up the prestige class in the PnP books sometime, you'll see what I mean....

As I have stated clearly in my 1st post and in many replies: I want only certain elements from DnD. Not every game ruining and imbalancing ones. I am well aware that all PnP turn-based rules don't work in real time video game.

I understand if you don't like "the spell slot"-mechanism but personally I would really like to see it in DDO. It would be different from other MMOs in a positive way.

[teh_meh]

Turn on Friendly Fire.

smartest suggestion in this thread so far. would definitely separate the boys from the men. lmao, this would be awesome to behold...even for just 1 week.

[Vellrad]

Sorry, no more buffs for anyone except me.

[Samadhi]

I think the easiest way to balance casters vs. melees is to once again emphasize crowd control; and to make crowd control necessary in all content. This was the way it was balanced at level caps 10 and 12, and it worked quite well. Only level cap 14 and later started having this constant back-and-forth because there is no thinking with foresight as to how the game is actually played.

[Templarion]

I think the easiest way to balance casters vs. melees is to once again emphasize crowd control; and to make crowd control necessary in all content. This was the way it was balanced at level caps 10 and 12, and it worked quite well. Only level cap 14 and later started having this constant back-and-forth because there is no thinking with foresight as to how the game is actually played.

This is an interesting story. Too bad, I didn't play in those days.

[eonfreon]

Of course the items should be redone. This would increase the work amount but could be still done. Possibilities of the new item effects would be various - even more various than in "the spell point"-system. Also new feats could be created.

And about that nerf part, I still say no. It would only force casters to use their full spell arsenal and not only a few obviously the best spells. They would still have those "solution for everything"-spells but playing a caster would also require a better strategic eye and using a correct spell in a correct place would be an excellent addition to the difficulty of the game.

You keep saying that your idea would "force" players to "be more strategic", but I have to ask how you come to this conclusion through your proposal.
If we replace spell points with spell slots that approximate the amount of spell points we currently have, then what will be the real impact? Other than create an extremely cumbersome system to replace a simple streamlined system.

If the new system converts into 500 first level spells, as an example, what exactly forces a player to use a variety of spells? Why wouldn't he simply load all up on just the spells he needs for a specific encounter? And thus be as OP as he is now? And if a caster doesn't even use a slot to memorize another spell that isn't as useful but has some value, how will he even cast it? As it is, if a caster fills a slot with a less-useful spell, it's no big deal, because he can use or not if the situation presents itself. Under your method, only the most useful spells wil get picked, moreso than now.

And if your answer is "playtesting" and "adjusting" the system until the Devs get it right, well that's true of any system, so it would be counterproductive to replace a system that is already developed, used, and is known to be popular, with an entirely new, very different system, which in the final analysis, does nothing in and of itself to solve anything.

I'm sure you're just spitballing ideas since you yourself know that this proposal has next to no chance of ever seeing the light of development in the current game.

But since you did ask for a discussion and opinions, here's mine:
This is not a good idea. There is no need to redesign to entire DDO spell system and create a system that in and of itself solves nothing, just makes it different.

As someone has already mentioned, but you ignored, the Blue Spellpoint Bar is the visual representation of "spell slots". Your idea, in and of itself, does nothing to improve the situation. And if playtesting is really your answer, then I can't think of anything worse then trying to redo the spell system from scratch rather than making adjustments to the current system and playtesting that to perfection instead.

[pSINNa]

Does the Op play a caster?

Wizard or Sorceror?


Pm, Am, or one of the Savants perhaps?


Tinker wizard maybe?.


Divine caster perhaps, and then, offensive high dc divine, low dc melee divine, clonk or RS maybe?


Are you saying they are all OP?

They are all different you know.


And i've only tipped the iceberg. You have your Tucau's, your monk assasin vampires, etc, etc, etc.

I haven't even mentioned bards in their many variations yet (the singing slayers of ddo ), and the soon to be explored artificers of course.


All OP?

Have you played them yet?


The people that have played them, in every variation they have had the time to explore, and have honed their builds/gear/playstyle/quest and raid knowledge, and then TR'd strategically, and honed it all again make them look overpowered, even godlike.

If you really want to say something about how to change things for the better, then i'm hoping you can answer yes to the questions i've asked above, otherwise, please wait until you can before you do.

More time playing the game we love, and getting to know it, and less time trying to change it before you grok the whole is all i ask from people asking for 'nerf' or major change.

That is all.

Coit out~

[Templarion]

You keep saying that your idea would "force" players to "be more strategic", but I have to ask how you come to this conclusion through your proposal.

Thank you for the comment! Good arguments you have there. Let's see if I can oppose...

At least the player could not cast, as an example, Wail of Banshee with his level 1-8 slots. Therefore, he should actually save Wails for special situations and use less-devastating spells for other, routine situations. I can see how people would write guides/comments like: "How to use spell X effectively?" and "Don't waste the high level spells in the beginning of the quest!"

Of course, nothing would prevent a player to load level 1 slots with spell X and level 2 slots with spell Y. However, I think that would not be the matter since many mobs are immune to certain spells or effects therefore forcing a player to choose also spells with other effects as they do now. Still, remember that player could not put level 2 spells in level 1 slots - this is exactly what would bring the variation and require strategic eye.

If we replace spell points with spell slots that approximate the amount of spell points we currently have, then what will be the real impact? Other than create an extremely cumbersome system to replace a simple streamlined system.

Not necessarily a cumbersome system:
I can see a window with a tab for every spell level. Each tab would split in two halves, one half showing the known spells in an alphabetical order and the other having a slider or messagebox with numbers of how many times you can cast this spell. In the hotbar spell would show how many times you can cast it again like the clickies show atm. This is just something I came up with 5 minutes thinking.

As someone has already mentioned, but you ignored, the Blue Spellpoint Bar is the visual representation of "spell slots".

I don't see it anyway similar to the spell slot system. The spell points allow you to cast the same spell until your mana has been depleted. The spell slot system simply doesn't allow this because you cannot load higher level spells in lower level slots. I am pretty sure that extremely often used spells would not be used so often anymore.

I'm sure you're just spitballing ideas since you yourself know that this proposal has next to no chance of ever seeing the light of development in the current game.

Well, I like to suggest things if I like the feeling they bring up in me. There is nothing wrong to imagine "what if it was done otherwise"-situations.

And as you said, this would make spellcasting different. Different is good.

[Templarion]

Does the Op play a caster?

Yes. I have played through Wizard, Sorcerer, Favored Soul and Cleric lives. In addition, I have also played Fighter, Barbarian and Paladin lives so I know how it feels to be a melee as well. I have also a decent gear for all of them and I can imagine how much better they could be with BIS equipment.

I haven't played Bard but I have a pretty good feeling how that class works as well. As I said, I have played the game over a year now. Even it is not very long time, it is long enough to get known of the basics. But thank you for the concern.

Are you saying they are all OP?

I did not use the term "op" on purpose because of the negative resonance it has.

But don't you agree that:
1) They are easier to play than the other classes?
2) They are usually more wanted in parties and more needed than the others?
3) The most of the other classes can be easily replaced with the caster classes in the most content?
4) The can out-DPS (or at least equally DPS) other classes while still be able to buff and self-heal themselves?

I think that should not be the case with any class. Since there are so many classes in DDO (too many imo) it is near impossible to keep them all balanced but at the moment many people can agree with me here. Meaning, there is a noticable power-gap between the casters and the others.

More time playing the game we love, and getting to know it, and less time trying to change it before you grok the whole is all i ask from people asking for 'nerf' or major change.

I understand you. And I also agree that this is a foolish suggestion full of nothing but a dream from the past.