Wing Testing

[Venny]

I am posing this here for all those interested in seeing the Results of the 'Nerf' To wings and the 'Nerf/Fix' Aura Testing Cause it seems to be lost in the whole Discussion Thread.

We're going to test it tonight in one of favorite quests to Solo/Duo; Sins of Attrition.

We know the quest exceptionally well, and had early instruction from an excellent Cleric that used to farm it on her own. I will post a review here. I've also been told that the logic behind the nerf will likely (hopefully) be revealed after the furor has died down, and that the decision wasn't made lightly. Yes, I sent a PM, and they were nice enough to answer. I will withhold my Hades and Damnation reaction until I see it in play.

My key concern was that the Nerf did not address the problem it was outlined with. Possibly, they were addressing other issues with it, but I'm not seeing it, and hope it's made clear at some future point.

I tested this on Lammania. Ran a quest (will run Sins later for more testing but expect the same result) and there was absolutely no difference in quest gameplay for me. I'm just not winging around that much. If I didn't know that there was a change, I wouldn't have noticed it while running a quest.

Where did I notice it? When trying to do one of my favorite things: wing around town. Not necessarily getting anywhere, I just enjoy winging about. Why? Because it's fun, and sometimes fun doesn't need to have an endgoal.

So with this change, Turbine has successfully nerfed my fun without having a single functional effect on how I run quests.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Why can't we go with a solution that specifically targets the problem rather than just nerfing from orbit?

And We did.

I solo/kited throughout Sins using 30% striders the +15 jump in my hat and Blade Barriers without ever once hitting my wings, Shrined once at the second shrine, killed everything before end fight Summoned TP Shrine Shrined up to full 402 hps and 2630sp Buffed down to 2350sp. I was insta Chained upon entry and tanked Cenodoxus. Healled once to full and Dped him, layering it. Was beat down to 250 and 1700 sp by end of fight.

And that was my test on Lamma land. To prove that I can kite without the use of my precious wings or haste

A little more detailed :P

The "Nerf" has been implemented on Lamannia.

Your Favored Souls for this evening:

Chasmyr; I suppose he's more "Evoker-specced", basically I like to kill stuff with Spells and am equipped to do so. Recently changed some spells to have more Heals for crazy people doing the new Raids. Angel of Vengeance

Vennysha; A more heal-spec'd Angel of Vengeance, the Prestige brought her closer to "combat" spec than before, but she still heals very well.

My 1st Impression:

We winged about House Cannith and the Market for a bit. By the time you're done with the 5 clicks, with the 3 second cooldown, 1 has regenerated. IF the Goal was to stop Wing-Spam, mission accomplished I suppose. I was always a bit of a runner as the "Feather Fall" effect of the wings counted down, so for me, it means being a bit more patient while jumping around the Market for kicks. A quicker regen in "Public Areas" might be nice, but I don't feel like I lost a leg.

Venny's Impression:

My Wife believes its a stupid limitation to have in the Public Areas, and would like to see either a faster regen rate or no 5 use limit, but only in the Public Areas. In short, for her, part of the fun was winging around the market between quests or just goofing, this has been limited.

We chose to Solo Sins of Attrition, and made notes in our Guild Chat area.

Chasmyr; AC42 (46 w/Watcher's Blade); HP: 332 w/Kormor's Belt; 392 w/Vorne's Belt; largely sustainable north of 400HP w/buffs and armor.
Notable Gear: Epic Cavalry Plate, tier I; Epic Ornamental Dagger, tier III; Light and Darkness shield (unsuppressed thanks to therapy); Ring of the Bucaneer (16th level); Epic Cloak of Night; Great Commander Green Steel Goggles of Existential Stalemate; Torin's Choker

Vennysha; AC52/54 w/Watcher's Blade and buffs; HP: 402; 425 sustainable

Notable Gear: Dragontouched Plate Armor (Cha+6, Greater False Life, Earthgrab Guard); Epic Cloak of Night; Epic Ornamental Dagger, tier III; Thaaraak's Bracelet; Great Admiral's Tricorne (Natural Armor Bonus+5, Jump+15); Great Commander Green Steel Goggles of Existential Stalemate;

We consider ourselves "Middling" geared. Not a lot of Epic stuff, but what we have is quite good for what we do.

BUG: The AoV enhancement description stills states that the Aura causes a 20% vulnerability to Light, etc.

Sins of Attrition:

We were never terribly wing heavy. As we have stated, winging through Blade Barriers, where there is room to run around them, isn't the best use of the spell. We made it a point to not use our Wings, just to see if we could, feeling that the town test was enough. Generally speaking, I have in the past used the wings only in the narrow halls of Sins to get through two BBs, and to drag the mob through. We took a few more hits this way, BUT we tested the proc rate of the Aura of Menace debuff and 10% weakness seems to proc a bit more, and is thus more useful if our impressions are correct. Red Names do not get the Debuff, but they DO get the 10% Weakness to Light.

Resources used: 5 pots for Chasmyr, 6 pots for Vennysha. I started off being less careful with SP than Venny, but I believe I used my Sov Capstone a lot more than she did.

Venny completed without her wings; I used my Wings to fly back to the center shrine once I cleared to Cenodoxus, you know, for fun.

For the most part, Blade Barriers were heavily used. We used DP on the Fire Elementals, and used our Archons throughout. The improved proc rate of the Light Weakness and the length of it actually made a difference in the mopping up of the trash, and saved SP that would have been spent on Searing Lights or other single-target spells to finish them off if the BBs timed out. Neither of us used Extend Spell, which means we're both considering trading out that feat, as we didn't need it. Both Cinderspawns, the Efreeti, and Badge Spawned Boss went down to DP(DoT). We kited the trash, DoT'd the Bosses, and made it to the end with 2 shrine uses, and the aforementioned pots. Cendoxus we both chose to tank and DoT, no running about, no Wing-Kiting. He went down; Tank-Casting is the more reliable method, as opposed to kiting him around that one pillar.

All in all a success; without Wings. No abuse. No Game Deforming.

EDIT: We just ran the LoB Raid with Greataxer/Shade. I was on the Epic run, and both later runs on Elite and then Normal. Very, very challenging and difficult. I was asked to Kite and BB the Hounds, which I did and it worked pretty well for the most part. I was able to keep ahead of them with hastes and use of my Wings, but not very often, not because they were limited -- I'm not given to Wing-Spam in quests anyway -- but because I had to keep the Hounds at the edge of things, which means they kinda had to be nipping at my heels, literally.

I continue to be disappointed by the Nerf, as I don't see or understand its necessity, but we're not hobbled. It just remains terribly annoying. Perhaps it is the phrase "Game Deforming" that irks me, but in any case, I can add detail if necessary. It's late, and we scored some interesting crafting raid loot we're still sorting out.

[Venny]

Let me add that my "report" doesn't mean I'm "OK" with this Change. I'm not. This isn't what my Wife and I paid for, especially considering that no one has made a reasonable explanation as to why it was necessary and what it resolved. The LoB Raid seems more together, but that's not because the Wings are nerfed.

However, in the interest of honest disclosure and for those that can't test on the Lam Server, there you have it.

Missed one important one.

[Venny]

And because this should be read

Your main is a cleric right?

I see your trying to solo ToD. A feat thats only ever been done by a favored soul.

Your screenshots getting to p3 are quite clearly also favored souls (Coincidence?).. Yet your signature lists your main as a cleric. Also the char you took on my elite/epic raids, so I would hope it was your main you took along =)

Solo ToD on your cleric instead. Tell me how fun the chains are and how part 2 was just as easy.

I've only quoted the above for easy reference. Also, I wanted to say that this (Wing nerf) was not Shade's idea. The fact that it was mentioned so quickly after his discussion about the LoB Raid tells me that it was already under consideration. He WAS speaking in terms of limiting a particular tactic in order to maintain the "Challenge Level" of the Raid itself. He plays a Favored Soul, and he was not after a Nerf to their wings, but an additional challenge inside the Raid itself.

All that aside, I've spent last night running LoB with Shade and Company. I had an excellent time, as did my Lady, another Favored Soul. At no time did Shade declare, "At last, your Game Deforming Ways have been brought to Heel! Now go use your fleeting advantage to Kite those cursed Hounds!" What he did ask was for volunteers to aggro and Kite the Hounds from amongst the Favored Souls running the Epic Raid, after a moment of silence, wherein I'm sure we two Favored Souls were thinking, "Jeez! I Hope the Other Guy Volunteers!" The Other Guy was me. I kited them, with a Reminder from Shade, "Only use your wings in emergencies, since they're limited now."

That was that. I've written a review on my experience, and while I still don't like the Nerf, I'm not crippled by the change.

All that said, I'd like to address the ToD thing. While it is true that it has only be solo'd successfully by a Favored Soul, perhaps in a manner not intended, this line of logic assumes that all Favored Souls are created equal, and that the Game Deformers-er-pardon-Wings are the source of this victory. Don't get me wrong, I am sure they were used to excellent, if not incredible, advantage, but I submit to the DEVs that it wasn't the only tool in this Favored Soul's toolbox. I believe the individual was Teth, I believe the Favored Soul was Tethtify. Here's a link to Tethtify's Sheet, view it in IE, or you'll lose some significant information.

http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/tethtify/

If my guess is correct, and this is the character that solo'd ToD, I am forced to consider the possibility that it wasn't his Wings alone. I must think that his 10 TRs had something to do with it, as well as his preponderance of Epic Gear. Tethtify in no way represents Favored Souls as an entire body. That one individual pulled this off, and happened to be a Favored Soul, is not "Game Deforming". If it were, more than one Favored Soul would have done so. I also believe that Tethtify could STILL do so. I'm not saying the Wings weren't a factor, but I AM saying they weren't the only factor, and possibly, not even the "biggest" factor in his success. Player skill aside, and I have to believe after 10 TRs Teth knows what he's doing, there's no way I, in my Favored Soul, could pull this off. I just don't know that Raid well enough. How many times has Teth run the raid in groups? I'd betting he ran that Raid, prior to Soloing it, a fair number of times. I'm betting that not only does he know it, he knows it extremely well, and knows the tricks of the quest as there are always tricks, whether its a wall to jump over that shortens a trip, or what have you. Even if I knew that Raid like the back of my hand, I honestly don't think I could solo it, I don't have the stuff -- be it experience, gear, or what have you. I'm a Good Player, I think, but I don't have 10 TRs behind me, and neither do most Favored Souls.

Now, I'm not accusing Teth/Tethtify of bringing down the Nerf Bat on us, and no one else should either, anymore than they should be accusing Shade of the same. I am, however, saying that Tethtify is a Monster of a Character, and after all that work, rightfully so. He took what he earned, and challenged himself, and won. Shade has long called for a Challenge that satisfied everyone, including those that clearly put a lot of hours into their game and are geared and TR'd to the Gills. The Game, as it stands now, has constructed a model wherein someone can TR 10 times and have all manner of Epic Gear, and by accomplishing this, this individual has a problem finding a Challenge in your average Elite Raid, indeed, if a number of people get together at this level, they'll have a problem finding a challenge in an average Epic or Elite Quest or Raid. This is their success, and the Game's failure to provide content that satisfied the "Monsters" they created. That one individual is so well-geared, and TR'd that he could accomplish what DEVs would have thought previously impossible says more about the Game itself, than it does about the use of Wings in a solo Raid.

I must address my "Job Space" now.

[Kareena]

I am very unhappy with the nerf to wings. But I appreciate a honest review & the feedback from Llama. I don't think my fvs will be nearly as "fun" as it is now- but will prob keep her for guild runs only now.


Thank you for the review and information.

[Venny]

I am very unhappy with the nerf to wings. But I appreciate a honest review & the feedback from Llama. I don't think my fvs will be nearly as "fun" as it is now- but will prob keep her for guild runs only now.


Thank you for the review and information.

As am I... I honestly think the 'Game Deforming' wing Nerf is stupid and doesn't solve the 'Kiting problem' (Since this was the reason the Wings were 'Nerfed' though as given via PM the 'real' reason will be revealed when the angry uproar dies down) as I ran Sins... Soloed it and was still able to Kite everything without the use of my wings. I did not use them once throughout the entire quest nor did I when running with Shade in elite LoB until I absolutely had to as I was one of the only ones up and everyone was on death timer. Not only that but LoB ad his Dogs were after me and **** those critters have on some hella fast striders.... what is that 50%?

[Darkrok]

I'll restate this here.

If they felt a nerf to wings was needed then the way they've done it will work. A simple tweak to the regen rate when not currently agro'd though would make it perfect. Make it 3 second regen when you have no agro, 15 seconds when you have agro. That allows FvS to continue to keep up with insane barbarians, flit around town, etc, while still controlling kiting/DA abuse.

[Vengeance777]

Anyone know if any of the increase to Action Boost items work for wing clickies? For example will Verik's Necklace increase it to 7 wings?

[Venny]

No there is no increasing items
No action point spending (like Pallies and their Smites, Bard songs, Clerical auras) nothing as of yet

[Rizzyn]

Anyone know if any of the increase to Action Boost items work for wing clickies? For example will Verik's Necklace increase it to 7 wings?

While I believe that was suggested by Forum-posters, I don't believe that is going to be the case. However, I have not tested it personally.

[dkyle]

The only modification I'd really like to see is to have Wings not use charges while in a public area. That way, we get the fun wing spam through town, without mitigating whatever in-quest balancing the Devs felt was necessary.

[Pape_27]

Anyone know if any of the increase to Action Boost items work for wing clickies? For example will Verik's Necklace increase it to 7 wings?

Considering what the devs did was change it from a class skill/feat into an action boost of sorts, it should. But it wont.

I reiterate this point again - The FvS wings were clipped because of spite. No one valid reason was stated for the change. The aclarity of the nerf speaks to this point. Most nerfs we hear about, they are considered then implemented.this time is was wham-bam-thank you ma'am, you're clipped.

In this case the time line went:

1) New Raid Released.
2) Shade brings a group of capped FvS.
3) New Raid destroyed.
4) Wings clipped.


As for the OP and the others who have tried it out, thank you for letting us not on llamaland know all about the new clipped wings.

[MartinusWyllt]

"Take these broken wings
And learn to fly again
Learn to live so free..."
-Mr. Mister

I only sporadically use them, so I don't think I'll really notice the change. I do object to the whole idea of changing a mechanic based on the actions of outliers....and as demonstrated here this change doesn't even necessarily impact the "do-ability" of boss kiting.

[voodoogroves]

The only modification I'd really like to see is to have Wings not use charges while in a public area. That way, we get the fun wing spam through town, without mitigating whatever in-quest balancing the Devs felt was necessary.

And explorer zones. ADQ is painful.

[Vengeance777]

And explorer zones. ADQ is painful.

Seriously add Teleports to the ADQ and the desert flagging quests and make wings not use charges in public areas. That would alleviate a lot of the pain this nerf is causing. It takes 5 mins to run out to Chains of Flame and ADQ is even worse if you miss a jump. Wing spam, shadowwalk, and sprint boost are the only thing that make the desert runs tolerable. They need teleport points like Gianthold. Zawabbi should be able to teleport us there after completing the quest hes an all powerful Djinn after all. And seeing FVS winging around town is the main reason I bought the class because its fun. Loosing the ability to fly around town hurts.

[voodoogroves]

I'm not an in-quest wing person for most content - just the longer runs - and definitely getting to the intolerably far away quests. I did an ADQ the other day and just for kicks counted about how many times I wing on the way out there - 20 ish.

[Rizzyn]

Considering what the devs did was change it from a class skill/feat into an action boost of sorts, it should. But it wont.

I reiterate this point again - The FvS wings were clipped because of spite. No one valid reason was stated for the change. The aclarity of the nerf speaks to this point. Most nerfs we hear about, they are considered then implemented.this time is was wham-bam-thank you ma'am, you're clipped.

In this case the time line went:

1) New Raid Released.
2) Shade brings a group of capped FvS.
3) New Raid destroyed.
4) Wings clipped.


As for the OP and the others who have tried it out, thank you for letting us not on llamaland know all about the new clipped wings.

Your kinds words are appreciated, but part of your statement isn't true.

Venny was part of the first Epic runs made by Shade on the LoB. Their group did not complete. Nor did Shade bring a group of capped Favored Souls, though our group last night did run deep with Divines, it was just player circumstance that made that happen, not some kind of nefarious plan. Shade's actions and call for challenging content do not = Wings Clipped. Shade has a Favored Soul, and while he believes something had to be done, nerfing Wings wasn't amongst his suggestions, nor was it motivated by spite. In the end, he saw the writing on the wall, and supported "the lesser of two evils" only because given the choices, the one we wound up with was the "kinder" change.

The reason the nerf came quickly was because the DEVs were already considering what they would do. I acknowledge that Shade has a strong voice, but I think Shade would agree -- they don't read his suggestions and immediately implement them just because he's Shade. I was told by a DEV that an explanation would be forthcoming. Let's see what they say, but let's be fair; what was asked for was an in-Quest mechanic, not a nerf.

[Venny]

Shade is not to blame for this at all, he has a Fvs as well and feels for the Nerf just as we all do.

When I was first asked by Shade to join his group, as a relatively new player (No TR's under my belt) and him being one of the most awesome player/characters I have seen. I was Scared, I had butterflies in my stomach and even more so when it was going to be Run on Epic. I believe I cursed... along the lines of “Oh holy....”

But the longer I remained in the group the more fun it was... the more relaxed I became, Shade is a great guy in my mind. He was very nice to me and while this Nerf sucks; he looks out for those within the party and he takes care of those with him. He offers advice and what have you and for a founder and someone that has played for years I would happily listen to him and anything he has to say.

Please do not point fingers at Shade.

[patang01]

I don't use my wings in kiting or when I solo. But I use them constantly when moving around, even in wilderness.

This change does nothing to 100 percent of the game I play now and 99.9 percent of the game after u11 drops. It's arbitrary and fixes nothing other than imposing a arbitrary rule that effects a majority of all other game play for a temporary fix to a poorly designed raid mechaning that can be exploitet if people had the desire to waste a lot of their resources.

[Pape_27]

Don't take what I post as me blaming Shade for what happened. I am not.

In the LoB thread, maybe i misread it - I will have to go back and look - he said that indeed the first pass thru was a failure. The second run thru, with capped divines, conquered. I will have to go back and reread the thread to clarify this for myself. Thanks to those who corrected my understanding about what happened. Clearly I am suffering from a case of CRS...

However it played out, its clearly evident that it was the devs reaction to that success that was the tipping point in getting the wings clipped. Not Shade, nor any one else in there, nor Teth and his amazing accomplishments, nor any other FvS playing the game. Please don't think I am blaming him or any other player for what happened. That is definitely not the case.

thanks

[Venny]

No problem....

I will be testing more Solo Favoured Soul without the Game Deforming wings Quests.

Maybe Duo quests tonight with a semi cap-geared Pale Master and I will make it a point not to use my wings or basially anything really matters in 'Kiting' ie Blade Barrier unless the PM really needs the assistance...

And

Then Duo with a Capped Arti

Both of the above mentioned can heal themselves if they get out of my range.


Note: I am not using my wings unless it is a Cake or Death situation for myself.