Turbine balancing developing on the right track - Grip of death.

[Angelus_dead]

Hope this does the job of keeping things interesting for you but doesn't stop the action all together.

I support the sentiment, but have some concern that this can push group composition in the wrong way regarding all-FVS squads versus mixed parties. (Less recoverable deaths = more important that people have strong self-healing)

Repasting my reaction to this from the LOB thread:

Looks like you're partly misattributing the cause of that problem.

Getting killed and raised in the middle of a raid boss fight is already bad enough: the loss of all buffs and the death penalty both put you at a big disadvantage carrying on. Where the problem comes from is when players have an unbounded stack of Major Mnemonic Enhancers so they can both rebuff the dead guy and then put out the extra healing needed to keep that weakened character alive.

Of course, that's not the only problem caused by unbounded mana potions, but it'd get fixed automatically if the bigger concern was dealt with. If spellpoints were a seriously constrained resource, then deaths would scarcely be recoverable even if they are immediately raised.

[xTethx]

If it was a Choice people could voluntarilly make for how to run a quest (agreement by check-box on open) or how their character would overall approach experiencing the world (agreement by check-box on character creation), then I'd consider it a fine idea as it could/would give the players who want that sort of "Challenge-Difficulty-Forced" path the Option of playing that way... without impacting the others in the world who just want to "play."

Give players who want their gaming experience to be an Ordeal a means of making their enjoyment of being in the world as frustrating as they like... don't afflict the entire community with punitive mechanisms that *sideline* - even momentarilly in minutes - experiencing the world, engaging the foes, taking their stuff.

[Partially thought out idea - could this be Griefed as well? A wipe in a Raid at the final chest (or a side chest that is particularly desirable) for all but those - who maybe share a guild - with the capability of Rezzing; they don't Rezz the party... loot the chests and flee.]

Granted the above idea would lead to bannings and conflicts and squelches... and maybe more general strife in the community for new reasons. I'm not sure it could be Griefed in the way I describe... but it is a line of thought for those more in the know about game mechanics and griefing to consider.

If you dont want it, run normal.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Limited to these 2 raids. Interesting. I was expecting, when first suggested, that it would effect all raids, but only on Epic.


But if it is limited to the two and affects all but normal at varying degrees, I don't see a problem.

[dkyle]

Awesome, more raids PUG runners can't get into.....

There are raids that PUG runners can't get into? News to me. I PUG almost exclusively, and have never had trouble running the Raids I wanted to (so, all except Abbot and Titan).

Besides, it doesn't apply to Normal.

[Yetzederixx]

This rez timer thing has a noob like me worried. Though I don't die a lot I don't let the fact that I'm not in a full set of epic gear, let alone have a single green steel item done, stop me from charging right in and doing my job either.

This is going to cause even more discrimination when it comes to parties which will trickle down to more people quitting the game since they can't get any of the above mentioned gear since they can't get in a party to get it and will ultimately affect the bottom line of Turbine.

Make some changed to death penalty instead:

1. Make it longer
2. Make it worse
3. Make it exponentially longer if you get it again while still under the last one
4. Make it exponentially worse if you get it again while still under the last one

[Jay203]

If it was a Choice people could voluntarilly make for how to run a quest (agreement by check-box on open) or how their character would overall approach experiencing the world (agreement by check-box on character creation), then I'd consider it a fine idea as it could/would give the players who want that sort of "Challenge-Difficulty-Forced" path the Option of playing that way... without impacting the others in the world who just want to "play."

Give players who want their gaming experience to be an Ordeal a means of making their enjoyment of being in the world as frustrating as they like... don't afflict the entire community with punitive mechanisms that *sideline* - even momentarilly in minutes - experiencing the world, engaging the foes, taking their stuff.

[Partially thought out idea - could this be Griefed as well? A wipe in a Raid at the final chest (or a side chest that is particularly desirable) for all but those - who maybe share a guild - with the capability of Rezzing; they don't Rezz the party... loot the chests and flee.]

Granted the above idea would lead to bannings and conflicts and squelches... and maybe more general strife in the community for new reasons. I'm not sure it could be Griefed in the way I describe... but it is a line of thought for those more in the know about game mechanics and griefing to consider.

if a chest means that much to one, i'm sure splurting out a couple TP for a rez cake from store would be fine don't you think?

[dkyle]

This rez timer thing has a noob like me worried. Though I don't die a lot I don't let the fact that I'm not in a full set of epic gear, let alone have a single green steel item done, stop me from charging right in and doing my job either.

It's quite easy to get enough HP to allow you to survive alongside everyone else. HP gear is not hard to get; +6 CON and GFL are trivial, Minos is easy, one single-shard GS isn't unreasonable for running a new high level Raid. Beyond that, there's very little else available to distinguish a new character from one geared to the hilt, as far as HP goes.

This penalty is, frankly, weaker reason to fear death than one already in place in an existing Raid: in ToD, if you die in the last part, you heal the main boss by about 20% of his max HP.

[Xionanx]

There are raids that PUG runners can't get into? News to me. I PUG almost exclusively, and have never had trouble running the Raids I wanted to (so, all except Abbot and Titan).

Besides, it doesn't apply to Normal.

Apparently there are people out there who maintain extensive grudge and do not group lists, who form raids with the sole intent of only letting in the best of the best as they believe them to be.

I remeber getting into a shroud run once that had some of those types in it, apparently 1 of them had at some point done something 1 of the others, neither of which were the raid leader so they bickered back and forth at each other for about 5 minutes until one of them just left.... ********.

As much as I hate how "easy" DDO is now compared to what it used to be, I'm also happy to be playing an MMO that you can toss up an LFM for virtually any raid and accept almost anyone and have a pretty good shot at completeing successfully.

The same cant be said about most other MMO's I've played, where you spend weeks training the same group of people to stand in the same spots, move in the same way, cast X at X time when Y boss does Z thing.. And god forbid you have to replace someone as you'll have to start the process all over again. Raiding in other mmo's is so frustrating...

I hope that Turbine doesn't start going down that path.

[dkyle]

if a chest means that much to one, i'm sure splurting out a couple TP for a rez cake from store would be fine don't you think?

They don't work in Raids.

I haven't done the new Raids on Lammania, but I have to think that, as with every other Raid, a rez shrine will spawn by the chests. Sure, it would be possible to grief by taking the stones far away, but that's always been possible, and might be a reportable offense. I'm really not seeing how the rez delay could be used for griefing, where the lack of delay would prevent that griefing.

[Seph1roth5]

Well I am happy that it's just the two raids, for now...let's hope it stays that way.

But to whoever was talking about death being banal or whatever, you still get pretty screwed when multiple people die.

In many quests like shroud, von, abbot, hell every raid practically, you can't jump into the action anyway before getting fire res, death ward, etc. or you'll just die again.

I was in a hard VoD earlier where lag was just brutal, and we had maybe 3 deaths in his first 80%. Once the orthons came down at 20% though another lag spike hit and 4 people (one healer) died. The rest of us couldn't stay alive long enough with just one healer left and it was a wipe. We had some highly-geared people, some were just along for the ride, but death as it is now is still pretty bad.

Another story, I was bard-ing it up in ToD a few weeks ago, lag again but somehow I managed to escape death and was able to scroll-res 3 people and we finished them off. Still, it was really tough running from suulo, healing myself, and res-ing people.

Again, death isn't a tiny speed bump for the vast majority of players and groups, and really doesn't need a ton of extra drawbacks heaped on top of it.

[dynahawk]

Just a note to the people who say the "death timer" is optional, well it is sort of. If you want to get the new weapons to higher tiers, I believe you have to run the raids at higher difficulties.

[Kushiel]

if a chest means that much to one, i'm sure splurting out a couple TP for a rez cake from store would be fine don't you think?

... indicates unusable in RAIDS.

But my point is the *mechanism* itself may be used as a means of Griefing others, not that I am fixated myself on looting every box in every circumstance. With my original post on the topic, I expressed a concern that could maybe stand some scrutiny by folks more aware of the game mechanics and the conditions where Griefing could happen.

This is one of those protocols potentially being added to the game - I guess to meet the desires of a segment of the population - that causes me to contemplate, "Be careful what you wish for"... especially since it will seemingly impact the whole of the community (who run at least those specific quests... for now?)

[Jay203]

They don't work in Raids.

I haven't done the new Raids on Lammania, but I have to think that, as with every other Raid, a rez shrine will spawn by the chests. Sure, it would be possible to grief by taking the stones far away, but that's always been possible, and might be a reportable offense. I'm really not seeing how the rez delay could be used for griefing, where the lack of delay would prevent that griefing.

maybe i should have just quoted the optional chest part

[dkyle]

But my point is the *mechanism* itself may be used as a means of Griefing others, not that I am fixated myself on looting every box in every circumstance. With my original post on the topic, I expressed a concern that could maybe stand some scrutiny by folks more aware of the game mechanics and the conditions where Griefing could happen.

The situation you outlined would be no different if the mechanism was or wasn't active. A group of players could always choose not to rez people. I don't see a way to use this mechanism itself to grief.

Now, I do hope that the timer goes away when the quest is completed. Either that, or let rez shrines bypass the timer. It would suck to die right at the end, then have to wait a whole 2 minutes to loot. And then everyone else is waiting in case you get something you want to put up for roll...

[shadow_419]

Just a note to the people who say the "death timer" is optional, well it is sort of. If you want to get the new weapons to higher tiers, I believe you have to run the raids at higher difficulties.

It's possible that running on harder difficulties will be required for crafting all the way to tier 3, but that's ok. If you want an epic item, which the tier 3 is, you should have to complete on epic imo. You run it on normal until you're strong enough to increase the difficulty like everything else in the game.

[Zzevel]

Sweet, RAIDS..now with 85% more healer hate...

• ***? We failed because you wern't healing well enough once the tank went down we all went down...
• I don't care who you were centered on, we failed because you didnt heal us...
• They fixed the lag in U9! You must be a bad hjealer!
• I see your HP, you better stay alive now that we can't rez you!
• ...etc..

Don't you think it's tough enough to find a healer some days the way it is?

[Kushiel]

The situation you outlined would be no different if the mechanism was or wasn't active. A group of players could always choose not to rez people. I don't see a way to use this mechanism itself to grief.

Now, I do hope that the timer goes away when the quest is completed. Either that, or let rez shrines bypass the timer. It would suck to die right at the end, then have to wait a whole 2 minutes to loot. And then everyone else is waiting in case you get something you want to put up for roll...

You looked at what I had written and engaged in a "Discussion" about the rough and ignorant basic scenario I had hoped to get folks to actually evaluate and consider. You covered a potential way it could interact with *people* "playing" the "game."

Thanks!

[gerardIII]

So now when I die I go afk watch a TV show and I forget to come back, make people angry and lose my end chest because I get disconnected.

Bravo!

Edit: That's already what's happening for me in Piker's Fate whether I die or not. I lost one or two chests like that.
So you corrected the raid but you go back on the good stuff and implement something to balance it?

[shadow_419]

So now when I die I go afk watch a TV show and I forget to come back, make people angry and lose my end chest because I get disconnected.

Bravo!

Edit: That's already what's happening for me in Piker's Fate whether I die or not. I lost one or two chests like that.
So you corrected the raid but you go back on the good stuff and implement something to balance it?

So you can't stick around for 1:00 (2:00) to get a res on hard (Epic)? Don't deserve any loot then anyway.

[Bowser_Koopa]

It's Bowser!


Yes I know you all love me so I'm here to chime in on this topic. Firstly vets/elite players I hope your all as happy about this change as I am if your not well I have two words for you.....Come on!

To the "casual" players have any of you ever run Reaver's Fate? In there you die you stay dead for 75% of the raid. Where is the casual rage for that penalty? That has been in game for years and they add a 1-2 minute timeout and now your upset? Oh but Mr Bowser the loot here is new and shiney and I wants it. Really? We all wanted things out of Reaver when it launched so now your crying a level 14 raid has a penalty that is lesser than a level 20-25 raid?

Get over yourself do you want to know the future? The future is eventually some group of people from some server will figure out great strategies some new flavor of the month/update build(s) will come out and we'll be beating these raids at a 75% or higher success rate in less than 2 months.

That's it that's what will happen, in the meantime if you have low hp's no shroud gear etc, guess what your free to go get some just like you were before this update came out. If you get booted from a raid for low hp's maybe you need to take a look at your build maybe you need more toughness or con, take it as a wake-up call that other veteran's/elitist are saving you from being "that guy" who died 18 times in part 5 of the shroud.

In closing I welcome this new penalty and think that it should stay in game and our "raid bosses" are getting stronger finally and I welcome the idea of beating a raid as being an accomplishment again instead of a chore we do every 3 days because it's there. So Turbine I say in 2 months review your changes to raid bosses and if we're wiping the floor with them still make them harder on Hard, Elite and Epic these bosses are supposed to represent the best the "Bad Guys" have to offer and be a legitimate threat to us not a speed bump to new loot.

Sincerely,

Bowserkoopa

edit: curse misspelling doomship in the title