Turbine balancing developing on the right track - Grip of death.

[knightgf]

There's one thing I'd like to suggest now that we're talking about death.

There are three types of spells that can be cast in order to restore one's body: Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection. Right now, there are really only two spells that have strong motivation to use: Raise Dead for the ability to revive someone and potentally fast as well(Quicken), and True Resurrection to efficiently resurrect someone. While back when the level cap was 16(Can you believe that?), there would have been motivation to use resurrection since it restored the most hitpoints, even back then, I still dont see too much use aside from another rez. There should be more motivational factors to use the higher tiers of resurrection spells, and what I propose for changes in resurrection spells is this:

• The higher the rez spell, the less negative effects come through. Raise dead applies the full death penalty that can be applied upon a resurrection, resurrection only limits it to the second penalty, and true resurrection has none at all. Death pact is unique: It restores your HP as a raise dead but only has death penalties up to a resurrection(Or True res, whichever you feel is fine).
• Only a resurrection or true resurrection can resurrect someone who has been hit by a instant death spell or a disintegrate, since both effects destroy the body. While a person can be resurrected with a rez shrine if they get hit by these effects, you will get a error message if you attempt to cast raise dead on someone who has been hit by a disintegrate or death effect.
• Healing lore should effect resurrection spells in unique ways: If it crits, a raise dead restores 50% HP instead of 10%, a resurrection restores full HP instead of 50% HP, and a true resurrection gives a 10% bonus of temporary hitpoints. It only effects HP restored though, and does not effect penalties or conditions of resurrecting(Although it would be nice if it could reduce or remove penalties based on crit %, I think thats something Turbine could twink with later).

I do realize that this may add challenge for UMD'ers, as well as divines with limited spell slots, but if you think about it, resurrection scrolls can still be purchased(Although a bit expensive) at the House Jorasco vendor to revive someone who died of a instant death or disintegrate spell. The one thing that might worry me is that Greensteel clickies of double positive might become a bit worthless now, but in the end, I feel that the idea of whether or not to change the clickie to resurrection or true resurrection(Which it once was, but nerfed for some reason) is up to Turbine.

[maddmatt70]

So does the rogue cheat death capstone skip the timer? That would actually be neat if it did and it may make some rogues rethink their capstone choice haha..

Edit: how about the cleric capstone? That work such that there is no timer?

[knightgf]

So does the rogue cheat death capstone skip the timer? That would actually be neat if it did and it may make some rogues rethink their capstone choice haha..

Only if it ACTUALLY works on the rogue...keep in mind its only a 'chance', and not a guarantee like pact of death. If it doesn't work...I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bug that allowed rogue resurrection, its easy to confuse the coding.

[Combat_Wombat]

example: 2 minute timer
raise dead can't raise within that 2 minutes resurrection can raise with 30 seconds left and true res can raise at 1 minute left

combine that with my previous timer stacking idea and I think we are golden

[Claymorep]

I'd like a lot if We don't play in lag environment!!!

If I die for a stupid error is my foult and is good I stay out of battle for a better thinking of my error, but as I play in endgame only I have to admit I build my alts considering lag...
I do an example that happened 1 minute ago and this is why I'm here: I was clearing epic ADQ1, i was taking some hits so I casted an heal on me, I found dead on the starting stairs and my soulstone was at half the final stairs in front of the gate of queen last corridor... (and I didn't use wings as I'm training me in a more "intelligent" use of them)
Sorry but I don't consider this a my error unless as fvs I have to use my divination abilities and cast a heal before the hits...
I can continue with a lot of examples.

Ask all healers how to use heals and You'll have the same answer in some instances where You have to fight lag instead of the boss. You can't allow yourself to cast the right cure when it is needed on the right person cause he is suffering some other hits meanwhile, so the only practical way is to spam heals without a real connection between what is happening and what You are doing.

So if they solve lag I like it, but as we play in lag it's a bad thing to deal with. ;(

[Algreg]

while you really seem to do a great job on U11, this grip of death-thing is a horrible idea. waste of time has allready been mentioned, but i also see the end of any pugs for epic content there. not all players are in endgame guilds that offer enough opportunity to get into epics. when dying becomes such a hassle, people will - and rightly so - only want to team with people they know. of cause, it sucks to have someone without a clue tagging along and dying over and over, but at least as the state of dying is now, you can live with that till the quest is done.

[Geonis]

Meh, I'll live with it since the devs really don't give a flying #### about those who have real lives, just won't run those raids.

That being said, a good deal of the latest "updates" have me logging in less and less, for the first time in over 5 years...

Something new will come out before too long, glad I'm not locked into a subscription.

Keep catering to the "leet" crowd, all 5% of them should keep you afloat Turbine.

[sephiroth1084]

while you really seem to do a great job on U11, this grip of death-thing is a horrible idea. waste of time has allready been mentioned, but i also see the end of any pugs for epic content there. not all players are in endgame guilds that offer enough opportunity to get into epics. when dying becomes such a hassle, people will - and rightly so - only want to team with people they know. of cause, it sucks to have someone without a clue tagging along and dying over and over, but at least as the state of dying is now, you can live with that till the quest is done.

I think you're wrong.

Look at The Reaver's Fate, Shroud Part 4 and Tower of Despair.part 1. Their death mechanics are far more punishing than this Grip of Death mechanic, but did they prevent players from running the raids and completing? Were they a barrier to PUGs? That hasn't been my experience with them. Look at the hassle that is dying in the fight with the Abbot, how difficult it is to raise anyone that dies in the water, and yet PUGs persist and complete.

[Algreg]

yes, and they will become even more so then. also, named examples are hardly to be compared to epic raids.

[Angelus_dead]

Look at The Reaver's Fate, Shroud Part 4 and Tower of Despair.part 1. Their death mechanics are far more punishing than this Grip of Death mechanic, but did they prevent players from running the raids and completing?

Those all have the same anti-raise mechanic on Normal and Elite, unlike the new one where the anti-raise gets stronger along with the difficulty setting.

That looks like an unwarranted double-dip: lower difficulties are already less likely to kill someone, so they don't need to also have it easier to raise.

[sephiroth1084]

Those all have the same anti-raise mechanic on Normal and Elite, unlike the new one where the anti-raise gets stronger along with the difficulty setting.

That looks like an unwarranted double-dip: lower difficulties are already less likely to kill someone, so they don't need to also have it easier to raise.

Does the most severe version of the anti-raise in the new raids compare to the severity of the penalty box mechanic? I haven't played them, so I can't judge whether the "double-dipping" feels overly punitive or not, but I can't imagine it feeling as bad as the penalty box schtik.

What do you think about the mechanic in general, A_D? Would you be happy with it if it didn't scale with the difficulty? On the surface, it looks like an interesting way to make the quest more challenging without having to necessarily rely on inflated stats and extra overt dangers, but I'm sure those are present anyway.

[Angelus_dead]

What do you think about the mechanic in general, A_D? Would you be happy with it if it didn't scale with the difficulty?

Yes, I'd like it more if it were the same length on every difficulty.

But my major problem with the anti-raise mechanic is that it's not addressing the true source of the problem, which is mana potions. Dying and raising and having a death penalty would be plenty costly, except that people are able to cover up for it by using 1-2 extra Mnemonic Enhancers. If the excessive peak rate of mana potions were limited, then there'd have been no reason for an anti-raise mechanic.

I also have a concern that an anti-raise mechanic will preference characters who either have very high hp or who can cast Quickened Heal/Reconstruct, making it more difficult for other types of character to contribute to the encounter.

[Khurse]

Love the idea.

Applying it to all raids would be awesome.

Heck I'd like to see it apply to non raid epics as well.

[Sonofmoradin]

Yes, I'd like it more if it were the same length on every difficulty.

But my major problem with the anti-raise mechanic is that it's not addressing the true source of the problem, which is mana potions. Dying and raising and having a death penalty would be plenty costly, except that people are able to cover up for it by using 1-2 extra Mnemonic Enhancers. If the excessive peak rate of mana potions were limited, then there'd have been no reason for an anti-raise mechanic.

I also have a concern that an anti-raise mechanic will preference characters who either have very high hp or who can cast Quickened Heal/Reconstruct, making it more difficult for other types of character to contribute to the encounter.

Yes but how is it possible to deal with the majors now? This factor like it or not is in the whole system now, wouldnt that need a complete revamp? Majors are used excesiively in challenges as healing/raising/supporting at the moment, by nature, monsters should be doing less damage, traps should be less deadlier, and so on, isnt it a bit unrealistic now to think that this could change?

[Darkshire]

Love the idea.

Applying it to all raids would be awesome.

Heck I'd like to see it apply to non raid epics as well.

Awesome for everyone, or awesome for you and the select number of like-minded individuals?

Really, I'd be impressed if you could convince me how this would ACTUALLY be awesome and not at all a hit in the general enjoyability of the game. You may need to use more than three sentences.

[Khurse]

Awesome for everyone, or awesome for you and the select number of like-minded individuals?

Really, I'd be impressed if you could convince me how this would ACTUALLY be awesome and not at all a hit in the general enjoyability of the game. You may need to use more than three sentences.

LOL so no personal opinions allowed now?

How is it a hit to the "general enjoyability" of the game? What is the "general enjoyability" of the game exactly?
Do you speak (with your apparent disapproval of the change)for every single player in the game who hasn't posted here that they like it?

I think it's a good change because
-it adds to the difficulty of the quests on higher levels beyond the usual "Hey he has more HP's and a few points more to hit"
- it requires bit more thought for most parties on healing
- hopefully it will make players a bit more cautious, in quest and in their builds
- it should actually make getting the third tier items something of an accomplishment,rather than "yeah I got lucky while piking through Von 6/whatever 20 times"

I don't see how penalizing a group for a death due to extended loss of a DPS/CC/Healer/Whatever on higher difficulty settings is bad for the game. I would be against it for low level stuff, but endgame? I Think it's great.

[Darkshire]

LOL so no personal opinions allowed now?

How is it a hit to the "general enjoyability" of the game? What is the "general enjoyability" of the game exactly?
Do you speak (with your apparent disapproval of the change)for every single player in the game who hasn't posted here that they like it?

I think it's a good change because
-it adds to the difficulty of the quests on higher levels beyond the usual "Hey he has more HP's and a few points more to hit"
- it requires bit more thought for most parties on healing
- hopefully it will make players a bit more cautious, in quest and in their builds
- it should actually make getting the third tier items something of an accomplishment,rather than "yeah I got lucky while piking through Von 6/whatever 20 times"

I don't see how penalizing a group for a death due to extended loss of a DPS/CC/Healer/Whatever on higher difficulty settings is bad for the game. I would be against it for low level stuff, but endgame? I Think it's great.

The general enjoyability of the game involves not being hit with a stick while the carrot remains unchanged in flavor. See: general outrage over wing clipping change. See: VIP unhappiness over the elite unlock perk being diminished in their eyes. These are things that are actually DIFFERENT now on lammania, likely to go live, and make a lot of people unhappy in the process. Whether this makes things better for the game overall is likely to be a point of contention just short of forever.

So no, I don't have a problem with personal opinions, but when they're just dropped out there with no detail or real explanation whatsoever, I do have a problem with it when it's posted on a forum dedicated to a server where things are being changed and updated, with _citable_ examples of people making suggestions that have become part of the game's code base.

So you explained your motivations. They are thought out and reasonable. There was the chance you wouldn't, and if that happened my fear of a subset of the populace who thinks things should change because it would make their world sunnier, without regard to the people who they would NEVER interact with, just a little more justified.

It seems in this case it wasn't. So good. We're both happy. Maybe.

[sephiroth1084]

Yes, I'd like it more if it were the same length on every difficulty.

But my major problem with the anti-raise mechanic is that it's not addressing the true source of the problem, which is mana potions. Dying and raising and having a death penalty would be plenty costly, except that people are able to cover up for it by using 1-2 extra Mnemonic Enhancers. If the excessive peak rate of mana potions were limited, then there'd have been no reason for an anti-raise mechanic.

I also have a concern that an anti-raise mechanic will preference characters who either have very high hp or who can cast Quickened Heal/Reconstruct, making it more difficult for other types of character to contribute to the encounter.

Again, I don't know the gist of the encounters, but this wasn't an issue in the raids that have a much harsher anti-raise mechanic...

[Angelus_dead]

Yes but how is it possible to deal with the majors now? This factor like it or not is in the whole system now, wouldnt that need a complete revamp?

There are a great many ways they could deal with it, and it's true that the best approaches would be pretty complicated to explain.

However, for one simple example they could put an effect in the two new raids which triggers when you drink a mana potion and makes you immune to further mana potions until you rest. That'd be a strong starting point.

[Autechre]

Lets not forget that this death effect is present and more sever on the Epic setting of the new raid.
In my eyes it doenst have nothing to do whether you are a casual player or a hardcore one. It promotes a sence of team work ,tactics ,good leadership ,sence of advancement gear wise, skill and good perception.
You still can run it on normal to avoid the fuss but lets face it its an epic raid which actually i found it very enjoyable. Any obstacle is welcomed.