New Stalwart Defender & Defender of Siberys PrEs

[Arsont]

Oh yes please. I like. These will help a couple builds I'm working on much more fun and reliable to play.

[sephiroth1084]

Is the -10% movement speed just run/walk speed, or does that include attack rates as well? I'm guessing just movement. If that's correct, then why would you ever turn the stance off?

Also, does it turn off rage when you're in stance, or it just can't be cast on you? If the former, then that basically cuts in half the benefit of the stance.

These effects haven't changed, they've just had their numbers adjusted on Lama. The speed reduction is just walking/running, and the stances have always both turned off rage and Inspire Recklessness, as well as preventing them from being applied to you once the stance is active.

Likely, this is why they bumped the Str/Con bonuses to +6 from +4.

[elraido]

Likely, this is why they bumped the Str/Con bonuses to +6 from +4.

Didn't even think of that. Sort of a free rage now with 20% hp instead of 20.

[Thrudh]

Its unfortunate that you cant get rage cast on you or have madstone proc if you are in stance.. I wish they would fix that....

Both of those would kill your AC...

So no, please don't fix that.

I realize that many people are people are thinking about switching to SD for their DPS fighters (almost as much STR and Power Surge, plus all those extra hps!), but most of us who are SDs now are doing for AC purposes...

I don't want to have to avoid mass rages..

[Thrudh]

Indeed. Giving bonuses on PrE's that basically just nullify out the penalities seems kind of lame to me.

It's a defensive PrE... Madstone, I could see, because that's voluntary, but let's definitely keep rage nullified when in stance.

[Cyr]

Both of those would kill your AC...

So no, please don't fix that.

I realize that many people are people are thinking about switching to SD for their DPS fighters (almost as much STR and Power Surge, plus all those extra hps!), but most of us who are SDs now are doing for AC purposes...

I don't want to have to avoid mass rages..

Madstone gives you more AC if you do not currently have a NA +4 or higher effect on you and never hurts your AC. Rage can be dismissed by toggling CE. There is no downside for allowing these on defenders (from the defenders perspective.

[Seamonkeysix]

So here is my question:

Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement grants you 2 additional Turn attempts, additional armor class when blocking with a shield, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields by 1, and grants the ability to enter a defensive stance or to create a Magic Circle Against Evil effect. When using a shield, you generate 25% additional threat from all sources. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.

So if I am reading what is in red correctly, you could theoretically make a divine tank, say 12 Fvs/ 6 Paladin/ 2 Monk that would get 25% additional threat from any source, to include spells? If so, a 12 FvS could self heal, have good DPS threat AND get 25% additional threat from spells like DP, searing light, nimbus, ect...

That might make a 12/6/2 evasion, self-healing, AoV II, DoS I, tank pretty sexy.

Evasion + self healing + tons of threat + healing amp would be very nice.

[Thrudh]

Also, does it turn off rage when you're in stance, or it just can't be cast on you? If the former, then that basically cuts in third the benefit of the stance.

It turns off rage, and it can't be cast on you...

Yeah, it cuts the benefit of the stance in third... If you're not going SD for the AC, don't bother. Kensai with madstone and rage will do a lot more DPS.

[elraido]

So here is my question:

Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement grants you 2 additional Turn attempts, additional armor class when blocking with a shield, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields by 1, and grants the ability to enter a defensive stance or to create a Magic Circle Against Evil effect. When using a shield, you generate 25% additional threat from all sources. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.

So if I am reading what is in red correctly, you could theoretically make a divine tank, say 12 Fvs/ 6 Paladin/ 2 Monk that would get 25% additional threat from any source, to include spells? If so, a 12 FvS could self heal, have good DPS threat AND get 25% additional threat from spells like DP, searing light, nimbus, ect...

That might make a 12/6/2 evasion, self healing tank pretty sexy.

Evasion + self healing + tons of threat + healing amp would be very nice.

Reading that, it would seem that is the case. Trying to figure out the math on this one.
75% bonus from Pre/shield to all effects
75% bonus in stance/shield to melee
100% bonus divine righteousness
Intimidate bonus w/shield
20%?Leviks Set (figure shield and gauntlets )
15% Defender of Siberys Set

And I can't remember if all the Pre's tiers stack or if they just take the highest one.

[Thrudh]

Madstone gives you more AC if you do not currently have a NA +4 or higher effect on you and never hurts your AC. Rage can be dismissed by toggling CE. There is no downside for allowing these on defenders (from the defenders perspective.

Madstone doesn't give a -2 AC like normal rage?? Learn something new every day...

So I withdraw my objections....

However, I see why they set it up that way... If they allow rage and madstone while in SD stance, there's not much point in going Kensai.... They need to boost Kensai's Power Surge to +12 STR at Tier III then.

[whomhead]

It turns off rage, and it can't be cast on you...

Yeah, it cuts the benefit of the stance in third... If you're not going SD for the AC, don't bother. Kensai with madstone and rage will do a lot more DPS.

I hadn't thought about the AC hit when raged. That would be an unfortunate loss on an AC-based prestige.

I was actually more interested in these questions from the DoS perspective, not a Kensai. For a paladin I'm comparing +6 str (really only 4 since you lose rage) and a boatload (where a boatload = about 200) of HP to the bonus hit/damage against evil outsiders. Seems to be coming pretty strongly in favor of Defender in most epics and the new raids. Though would obviously be closer in quests that actually HAVE evil outsiders... probably still Defender.

EDIT: And if the character happens to have less than 18 levels of paladin, it seems like a no-brainer to go Defender all the way.

[sephiroth1084]

Madstone doesn't give a -2 AC like normal rage?? Learn something new every day...

So I withdraw my objections....

However, I see why they set it up that way... If they allow rage and madstone while in SD stance, there's not much point in going Kensai.... They need to boost Kensai's Power Surge to +12 STR at Tier III then.

Why? Kensai is still getting +2 attack and +2/+4 damage, +1 to threat range in addition to the +8 Str.

[Tirisha]

Indeed. Giving bonuses on PrE's that basically just nullify out the penalities seems kind of lame to me.

I think the idea is getting those stat bumps while maintaining a meaningful AC.

[Tirisha]

No armor masteries for a pally

One thing I would LOVE to see....if you are in a group with a stalward defender or defender of siberys....you can make a phalinx for a +2 AC for each defender next to you (must be with in paladins aura to take effect).

to the suggestion forums!

[Thrudh]

Why? Kensai is still getting +2 attack and +2/+4 damage, +1 to threat range in addition to the +8 Str.

Yeah, that threat range keeps the Kensai competitive... I'll agree with you there... But 20% more hit points is a pretty sweet benefit, along with +6 STR, +6 CON stance (that you can now keep running all the time)....

It wouldn't hurt to give Kensai III a little extra boost... I like the way they spread out the SD benefits equally to all tiers... They should do that with Kensai too...

Power Surge at Tier I of +4 STR, Tier II of +8 STR, and Tier III of +12 STR.

[Seamonkeysix]

Reading that, it would seem that is the case. Trying to figure out the math on this one.
75% bonus from Pre/shield to all effects
75% bonus in stance/shield to melee
100% bonus divine righteousness
Intimidate bonus w/shield
20%?Leviks Set (figure shield and gauntlets )
15% Defender of Siberys Set

And I can't remember if all the Pre's tiers stack or if they just take the highest one.

I'm trying to figure this out, too. With the upcoming Artificer class being able to add silver properties to weapons, I am thinking this might be a pretty sick operator.

Human 12 FvS/6 Paladin/2 Monk AOV II, DoS I
Past Life Paladin

IC Slash
THF
ITHF
GTHF
Quicken
Maximize
Tower Shield Proficiency
Power Attack
Toughness
Least Dragon Mark of Sentinel

Go for Levik's Set for healing amp and threat. DoS I Threat. Possibly Anathema (not sure if the spell threat will stack with DoS). DoS set threat. Human Healing Amp, Pally past life healing Amp, DT armor healing Amp.

Geared out with Epic Chimera's Fang. Slot for good. Get silver from Artificer.

You end up with something like:

175% Melee Threat
150% Spell Threat
200% Healing Amp

In stance you could end up with decent HP. A good SP pool to self heal. Reasonable DR.

Tossing DP and stacking it, swinging Epic Chimera's Fang, and pew pew cannon, you should be able to hold agro no problem. You would have a good SP pool to keep yourself up with spells...especially if you toss in Con Opp and/or Torc.

I will have to put it into a planner later, but the concept seems pretty solid.

I am kind of liking this!

[Seamonkeysix]

I'm trying to figure this out, too. With the upcoming Artificer class being able to add silver properties to weapons, I am thinking this might be a pretty sick operator.

Human 12 FvS/6 Paladin/2 Monk AOV II, DoS I
Past Life Paladin

IC Slash
THF
ITHF
GTHF
Quicken
Maximize
Tower Shield Proficiency
Power Attack
Toughness
Least Dragon Mark of Sentinel

Go for Levik's Set for healing amp and threat. DoS I Threat. Possibly Anathema (not sure if the spell threat will stack with DoS). DoS set threat. Human Healing Amp, Pally past life healing Amp, DT armor healing Amp.

Geared out with Epic Chimera's Fang. Slot for good. Get silver from Artificer.

You end up with something like:

175% Melee Threat
150% Spell Threat
200% Healing Amp

In stance you could end up with decent HP. A good SP pool to self heal. Reasonable DR.

Tossing DP and stacking it, swinging Epic Chimera's Fang, and pew pew cannon, you should be able to hold agro no problem. You would have a good SP pool to keep yourself up with spells...especially if you toss in Con Opp and/or Torc.

I will have to put it into a planner later, but the concept seems pretty solid.

I am kind of liking this!

Yeah...I wasn't even close on what this build can do.

How about:

330% Threat
330% Healing Amp
150% Spell Threat

[lugoman]

Geared out with Epic Chimera's Fang. Slot for good. Get silver from Artificer.

Epic Chimera Fang is getting Silver on it in U11.

[jandhaer]

What I want to know is are the stance dodge bonuses going to stack with our equipment that give the same bonus?

[Seamonkeysix]

Epic Chimera Fang is getting Silver on it in U11.

Whoa...