New Stalwart Defender & Defender of Siberys PrEs

[EustaceTrevelyan]

One thing a dex build needs vs a full plate armor wearer, is well Dex. A lot of paladins don't have the ability points to spread around into dex. Especially if they want Str, Dex, Con, Int (combat ex), and charisma. You just run out.

Arrrgh, almost makes you want to go drow. Nah, scratch that, doesn't really work out either.

[Alabore]

EDIT: ouch, neg rep?? I'm not hating on monks Its the logic that hurts my head.

I gave you a green cookie before, so I can't give you another, yet.
But I share your point: throw plate wearers a bone - considering you can't take it away from monks, since they had to pay for theirs.

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Aside note: that's what you get when you make some races/classes p2p-only.
You not only have to balance them against other choices, but make sure you give them a tiny extra boost, to warrant purchase.

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Aside, aside, note: monks in 4E are listed as being psionically-powered.
Basically, bear with me, I'm just simplifying here, they're psionic sayans.
Since a lot from 4E is being retrofitted into DDO, either as concepts or mechanics, we could argue monks are like that because their psionic powers made them tougher than regular folks, who need plate to cover their otherwise soft skins and bones and weapons instead of adamantine-hard knuckles.

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Aside, aside, aside, note: I'd like to build some monk/fvs splash, taking advantage of whirlwind of steel - if only I weren't forced to use existing robes/outfits.

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Aside of the above: with crafting I can keep boat rags and unless they tweak them, craft them and build a cosmetic kit from DDO Store.

Some work GREAT with rags, so Turbine, don't you do anything fancy eh?

[elraido]

Stalwarts need all of those as well, it isn't just pallies that sacrifice by needing to put points into all of those. Splashes need Wis as well, though not a whole lot (a little dab will do ya).

But how many stalwarts go 16-18 on charisma? Remember, the higher you go, the more expensive it is. If you only go up to 12-14 on a Stalwart, that is more points you can throw into dex. Paladins need those points to get Divine Might up (can't just take a viagra for that either).

[Tirisha]

But how many stalwarts go 16-18 on charisma? Remember, the higher you go, the more expensive it is. If you only go up to 12-14 on a Stalwart, that is more points you can throw into dex. Paladins need those points to get Divine Might up (can't just take a viagra for that either).

Girltank did! 16 cha for intim/saves with 2 pally levels, though I'm sure I'm the exception and not the rule. *Girltanks a half-elf that also bought 13 wis for monk dil=more amp than human for same AP.*

On a serious note I'm not really sure if Divine might is even worth the investment, the amount of attacks you miss for activating it in combat may=more dps then what you get for the sacred bonus.

Edit:
Also all you need is 14 base dex to fill cavalry plate *the highest AC armor that I'm aware of* 14 base+2tome+2ship buff+2yugo pot+2exceptional dex (from event shield, also best AC shield in the game)+6 item=28 dex, *do pallies even get armor masteries?* that will fill every point of armor mastery and stalwart dex assuming you put nimbleness in the blue slot of the plate.

[grodon9999]

The weird part comes with grazing hits....PJ's protect the wearer just as much as heavy armor does? Sounds silly....but this is a game.

it doesn't, the % damage mitigation from the shield is absolutely better at handling grazes.

[Tirisha]

it doesn't, the % damage mitigation from the shield is absolutely better at handling grazes.

pajama wears get the same benefit from a Shield wand *unless you are talking about shield mastery feats which not all pallies could fit in I'm sure*

[grodon9999]

pajama wears get the same benefit from a Shield wand *unless you are talking about shield mastery feats which not all pallies could fit in I'm sure*

I was referring to shield mastery.

My idea for giving S&B the small boost it needs, as now it should put out more threat than TWFing, is to give a +10 AC bonus for Combat Expertise if a shield is worn.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Just might have to try out Stalwarts on my TWF fighter now

[Dragaer]

it doesn't, the % damage mitigation from the shield is absolutely better at handling grazes.

Of course it doesn't in the game....that is just me being stupid and thinking about reality and infusing it into game mechanics...

I will flog myself later.

P.S. I love the idea of CE getting another +5 to AC while wearing a shield (due to the loss of blocking AC). TWF gets double STR enhancements, CE should do the same with a shield.

@elraido - I LoLed...pallies and their viagra. You're right, a stalwart putting more than 14 into CHA is just silly.

[Tirisha]

I was referring to shield mastery.

My idea for giving S&B the small boost it needs, as now it should put out more threat than TWFing, is to give a +10 AC bonus for Combat Expertise if a shield is worn.

ah, make sense, the increase to AC would be nice, my AC doesn't top off *reasonably* as well on my SD as opposed to my Wis build monk *who has DPS pre and puts out a lot of dps (holds aggro with no threat gear) mind you*

Though they still both have there trade offs, monks HP is too low, though a splash Stalwart could probably pull the HP off.

Shield mastery is nice but the best AC shield in the game is considered a "light shield" which really urks me.

I'd be definitely for your proposed change since I don't think it unbalances anything *and makes S&B AC more approachable*

[elraido]

Girltank did! 16 cha for intim/saves with 2 pally levels, though I'm sure I'm the exception and not the rule. *Girltanks a half-elf that also bought 13 wis for monk dil=more amp than human for same AP.*

On a serious note I'm not really sure if Divine might is even worth the investment, the amount of attacks you miss for activating it in combat may=more dps then what you get for the sacred bonus.

Edit:
Also all you need is 14 base dex to fill cavalry plate *the highest AC armor that I'm aware of* 14 base+2tome+2ship buff+2yugo pot+2exceptional dex (from event shield, also best AC shield in the game)+6 item=28 dex, *do pallies even get armor masteries?* that will fill every point of armor mastery and stalwart dex assuming you put nimbleness in the blue slot of the plate.

No armor masteries for a pally

One thing I would LOVE to see....if you are in a group with a stalward defender or defender of siberys....you can make a phalinx for a +2 AC for each defender next to you (must be with in paladins aura to take effect).

[Cashiry]

Its unfortunate that you cant get rage cast on you or have madstone proc if you are in stance.. I wish they would fix that....

[Burtle]

Looks like I'll be holding off on that TR after all...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[sephiroth1084]

I really like the changes, though I would have liked them to add in some interaction with the new (ly developed) shield feats, and still think that Defender of Siberys could use a tiny bit more of something since it still feels like it's getting a lot less than Stalwart Defender does.

[NoidRoid]

These changes are also nice for the 6 pally splash righteousness builds with a 12+ Monk/Fighter/Ranger/Rogue base. With or without AC.

Spending the APs on HotD I or KotC I for a minimal amp/dps gain was barely even worth it, extra threat and HP from DoS I would be very nice. On some tanking builds the 10% HP will come out to double madstone all the time without having to fumble about with the boots or losing the ability to cast/clicky. 25% extra threat, 2 extra turns, and +1 to saves are nice bonuses for non-AC amp/SnB hate tanks.

[Cyr]

Its unfortunate that you cant get rage cast on you or have madstone proc if you are in stance.. I wish they would fix that....

Indeed. Giving bonuses on PrE's that basically just nullify out the penalities seems kind of lame to me.

[lugoman]

Its unfortunate that you cant get rage cast on you or have madstone proc if you are in stance.. I wish they would fix that....

You can wear 30% striders instead of madstones and now come out 20% ahead.

[Ralmeth]

Thoughts?

Awesome!!! The extra hit points will be the best! There will be a much stronger arguement for a Pally or Fighter Defender to be the tank instead of the high HP barbarian. As a long time Pally tank there's nothing that grinds my gears more when the leader decides on a Barbarian with no AC to be the tank.

If the developers wanted to help out with this situation even more, I suggest one more change: Defender III (Pally or Fighter) gives immunity to the healing curse. You don't really need it on a high AC build, but there is a very strong feeling of most players that a WF must tank Suli simply because of this.

The second thing I really like is the increase to run speed, strength and con. I'll have to try it out but at only a 10% reduction in speed with 30% striders it may be worth it to keep the defensive stance on the majority of time in epics unless you have a long run ahead of you, so the extra DPS will be helpful there. As for other times such as elite Sins, the party won't have to watch me roll (i.e. tumble) through the entire quest.

Thanks Developers!

[Cashiry]

You can wear 30% striders instead of madstones and now come out 20% ahead.

I wasnt referring to the movement speed.. was talking about the benefiets from rage/madstone while in stance.. you dont get any benefiets in stance

[whomhead]

Is the -10% movement speed just run/walk speed, or does that include attack rates as well? I'm guessing just movement. If that's correct, then why would you ever turn the stance off?

Also, does it turn off rage when you're in stance, or it just can't be cast on you? If the former, then that basically cuts in third the benefit of the stance.