Favored Soul Leap of Faith = Rewind

[Brennie]

Actually I'm amazed no one bothered with a derogatory "DDO: unlimited" statement yet.

DDO: Unlimited*

*DDO: Unlimited reserves the right to be a limited unlimited. Unlimited limits may change at any time. Limited restrictions may apply to limits, limited limits, unlimited limits, or limited unlimited limits. See dealer for more details.

[waterboytkd]

They then proceed to make an adjust a single class instead of the raid.

This.

How broken are the wings? Sure, FvS can solo a number of quests, even high level ones because of it, but so what? Plenty of classes can solo quests, even high level ones. That can't be the problem, because if it was, then Wail of the Banshee would certainly need a massive nerf (which it doesn't, IMO) as it enables PMs to easily solo high end stuff (even epic stuff). And let's not even bring up Silver Flame Pots (again, leave em alone; they're fine).

What we've seen is the wings being left alone for some time. Then, the dev's new top raid comes, and rather than a conventional tank, some people thought a FvS kiting method was better. They didn't like it, so nerf wings. It doesn't make sense. If the problem is that raid (and even other raids) then why not add elements to hinder the wings in those specific raids. Things like making chains prevent winging. Or, give certain raid bosses Power Word: Stun, and have them use it on any target they can't get within melee range in a short amount of time. For instance, you don't want people kiting the Lord of Blades, give him PW:S. If he can't get his target into melee range withing 3 seconds, say, he nails them with a Power Word: Stun. Stop em cold.

If that's not good enough because a monk could drop Grasp the Earth Dragons, then make it a different ability, even a unique one, to completely stop movement. Something that can't be countered. That'd keep FvS from kiting. If that's a real problem.

Truly, I have seen very few examples outside of Reaver where an entire raid was told to pike while a FvS took over kiting. I've seen FvS tank. I've seen arcanes tank. I've seen just about every class tank, except maybe bard. Seen one try before, though. He died right away.

BUT, I've never seen a ToD, a VoD, an eChrono, or an eDQ where everyone else just sat around while FvS kited the raid boss to death. Never seen it.

Please, Turbine, please. Consider what you're doing. This is not a small change. There is a large player base that will not be happy with this change. Even if your mentality is "they'll still play", and even if it's true, it's only true for now. Unhappy customers WILL leave if they find the desired commodity from elsewhere.

Also, think of PnP. If a player had, say, an enchantment-specced Wizard who had great DCs, and you, as the DM, had a fight planned that was mostly low-Will save guys, would you blame the player for Dominating/Charming most of your bad guys and making the fight look like a joke? Would you, as the DM, say, "Those spells are too good. They're not gonna work the way they do anymore." Or, more analogous to what we're talking about, say, "I don't like you charming more than one guy at a time. It's not how I envisioned you beating the fight. You can only memorize one Charm Monster, now." That's a prime example of BAD dming.

The correct move there is not to attack player abilities. Especially ones that aren't game-breaking outside of specific encounters. The correct move, in the Enchanter scenario above, is to have an enemy mage casting Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, or even Mind Blank once he sees what the enemy wizard is up to. Or, give a couple key mobs a Mind Blank spell, so at least they couldn't be Dominated.

Or, again, in the case of FvS, give the mobs you don't want kited an active way to clip the wings for that encounter. Again, I'm a big fan of the mob having a brutal effect, like stunning, as a way to punish someone who has the audacity to run away from him, whether it's wings or shadowalking or just plain old spring boost.

Don't just clip the wings for all cases. It's punishing/nerfing the players at all times to balance for a small number of specific encounters, rather than boosting the bad guys in those specific encounters.

[kitsune_ko]

Seeing that they will not even tell why they are nerfing, or what is supposed to be fixing; I am not sure that they even know what the problem is; if one exists (other then they are unhappy about how certain players beat their new raid content using FvS).

"deforming of the raid space" is not either a reason or an explaination.

With such a vague generality being used as sole basis for a nerfing, somone who uses a MM pot during a raid run could be considered "Deforming" a raid, by giving themselves more SP to use the the raid design team allowed for.

Hell, using a DDO bought shrine or store rez munchie is seriously "deforming" the raid by adding outside resources to aid the party in gaining a raid completion, that would not be included or allowed for in the original design.

Love to see the Devs nerf usage of those as well.

I would also love to hear the real reason why FvS so desperately need a nerf from the Dev team to a class core skill that has been perfectly acceptable to them for the last two years. Or why it was rammed though in just two days by the Dev team.

Why it needs to be a "global" nerf, instead of just in quest/raid content as players proposed as a very reasonable compromise to a completely unexpected and unexplained nerf by the Dev team, to which the Devs themselves said it would be both possible and easy to do it that way.

Even an explaination of what they were trying to fix would be nice.

There are a lot of very valid questions that need real answering by the Dev team over this nerfing to FvS. And so far, the players are recieving nothing but silence from the Devs over this matter.

[Flugzeug]

Clearly you are taking things to literally and that way so way over your head...

And actually your paint analogy is actually correct. Paint IS the base color with other dyes added to it. I'm not exactly certain with black, but every color I've ever gone to get is white with added dye.

I suppose if way over my head is where 4 = 3

If you want to take my analogy specifically for what it is, then you would realize that normal objects do not have color in them. They reflect/refract specific light of various lengths and the colors that are reflected/refracted are the colors we see from objects. So in that sense, black is not in white and white is not in black...though you could say black and white are both in the light.

Either way, my point was to say that unlimited means without limits. So your original statement does not work. Just call it limited and be done with it.

[TechNoFear]

The DoTs are what needs to be adjusted not the leap of faith.

I disagree, the problem is the combination of DPS and effective damage 'elimination' (in a way that excludes other players).

That is; being able to kill a boss with minimal to no risk while other players are unable to participate (or very limited in their participation).

Clerics and other casters do not cause the same issue because they do not have the same combination of DPS and ability to avoid damage.

So clerics and other casters must use other tactics to reduce any excess hate generated, which makes for more interesting team play (an is inclusive of other roles).

The devs will always have to play catch up, as it is impossible to consider the synergies of every combination a player/s will use.

In this case it has to be nerfed as it lowers the enjoyment for the majority of players in an encounter (not fun trying to hit an opponent while chasing them).

It also makes tank's defensive stances more of a liability than a benefit (not that the stances, as they are currently are, are much fun to play in current content).

[Pewf]

So. Many. Threads.

I wonder if the devs have even reconsidered this.

[Flugzeug]

I would like to thank everyone who has posted in this thread. I think the more people that speak out and support the idea that the favored soul wings could be disabled when harried, chained, and in the new update 11 raids and left alone everywhere else, the closer we come to getting the Devs to see this is what we want.

In the end, the Devs have the final choice to change the game to their game as they envision it. I don't like where they are going and I doubt I'm the only one. Since I can't control this game, as soon as it becomes frustrating to play I will simply move on to another game. Thankfully I haven't had any desire whatsoever to leave DDO since I started playing in March of 2010. I have thoroughly loved the gameplay and the friends I've played with over the year and a half.

I suppose the only thing that helps our cause is the developers do have to consider losing customers if they make poor decisions. I, for one, think it's a poor decision to release something overpowered and nerf something else to try to help with the ability that's overpowered. Changing a class ability is so much more extreme than just turning it off for one raid, chained, and harried. The Devs will have to decide whether their version of what favored souls should be, is worth losing X number of customers for.

I am hopeful, as the update 10 crafting update that required the dreamspitter and chattering ring for crafting was stopped...maybe this can be stopped with enough outcry. So if you agree with wanting the Devs to make a different change to leap of faith, please post and make known your opinion so the Devs can see how many people are upset by this change.

[Flugzeug]

I disagree, the problem is the combination of DPS and effective damage 'elimination' (in a way that excludes other players).

That is; being able to kill a boss with minimal to no risk while other players are unable to participate (or very limited in their participation).

Clerics and other casters do not cause the same issue because they do not have the same combination of DPS and ability to avoid damage.

So clerics and other casters must use other tactics to reduce any excess hate generated, which makes for more interesting team play (an is inclusive of other roles).

The devs will always have to play catch up, as it is impossible to consider the synergies of every combination a player/s will use.

In this case it has to be nerfed as it lowers the enjoyment for the majority of players in an encounter (not fun trying to hit an opponent while chasing them).

It also makes tank's defensive stances more of a liability than a benefit (not that the stances, as they are currently are, are much fun to play in current content).

Here's what I'm saying. The combination of Divine Punishment (DoT) plus Leap of Faith (LoF) is one that decreased enjoyment for others. So, since the DoT is new and LoF is old, it would be more reasonable and respectful to the players of this game to change what is newer.

In addition, what quests/raids would this DoT and LoF combo be used? I certainly can't imagine it ever being used in ToD, VoD, Reavers Fate, DQ, Shroud, etc. Maybe Hound? Anyhow, if the only place this method is used is in the new raid, then just disable wings for the new raid and problem solved. No one is mad, no one leaves the game, less time required by Devs to make the change.

I am curious though, where have people seen a favored soul use wings and divine punishment to kill a boss while everyone else cannot attack boss? I haven't tried the new raids yet, and in all of the current raids someone would be squelched for trying to kill a boss by kiting...lol.

[waterboytkd]

In addition, what quests/raids would this DoT and LoF combo be used? I certainly can't imagine it ever being used in ToD, VoD, Reavers Fate, DQ, Shroud, etc. Maybe Hound? Anyhow, if the only place this method is used is in the new raid, then just disable wings for the new raid and problem solved. No one is mad, no one leaves the game, less time required by Devs to make the change.

I am curious though, where have people seen a favored soul use wings and divine punishment to kill a boss while everyone else cannot attack boss? I haven't tried the new raids yet, and in all of the current raids someone would be squelched for trying to kill a boss by kiting...lol.

This. This x1000. Obviously, this topic has generated many conversations in game, and ever single time, someone asks what raid are FvS kiting bosses to death and excluding everyone else. And no one can answer them.

I don't think it happens. I think the devs saw it happen to the Lord of Blades on Lama, and are panicking. And, in my opinion, they are making a newb/noob Dungeon Master move, and attacking the players' abilities rather than tailoring their encounters to challenge the players.

[Samadhi]

This. This x1000. Obviously, this topic has generated many conversations in game, and ever single time, someone asks what raid are FvS kiting bosses to death and excluding everyone else. And no one can answer them.

I don't think it happens. I think the devs saw it happen to the Lord of Blades on Lama, and are panicking. And, in my opinion, they are making a newb/noob Dungeon Master move, and attacking the players' abilities rather than tailoring their encounters to challenge the players.

Yep, this without a doubt.

[Hunta-EU]

ofc this nerf has nothing to do with the fact that 5 FvS pretty much solo'd epic lord of blades on their first try

[Samadhi]

ofc this nerf has nothing to do with the fact that 5 FvS pretty much solo'd epic lord of blades on their first try

And again, don't nerf an entire class because of the poor design of a single quest.

[Flugzeug]

ofc this nerf has nothing to do with the fact that 5 FvS pretty much solo'd epic lord of blades on their first try

if this is the case, then simply have the Lord of Blades throw out something that blocks the leap of faith, abundant step, and wind dance from being used at all during the boss fight. That would be far better. Why change more than what is needed?

[Pape_27]

It doesn't have to make sense to you, only to them. (I take that from this web comic. http://requiem.spiderforest.com/)

But on the more serious note, it was decided that at this stage, enough was enough.

except we all know why they did it.

It was done in a fit of pique. The clipping of the wings has not been on the drawing board for two years. The devs over reacted to a singular incident involving the new LoB raid.

Then all of a sudden its under review? Then nerfed within 48 hours? Sounds like a well planned out swing of the nerf bat or a knee jerk reaction on their part?

[waterboytkd]

ofc this nerf has nothing to do with the fact that 5 FvS pretty much solo'd epic lord of blades on their first try

That's just it. FvS haven't been ruining raids for two years. They just ruined this new raids that the devs want to be the new 'it' raid. But rather than adjusting their raid to better handle fvs (they obviously didn't account for this tactic in their initial design), they are instead going after the class. It's textbook bad dungeon mastering. You don't take away something the players enjoy because you didn't plan for it appropriately, you plan for it appropriately.

[Caseas]

This reminds me oh so much of how PvE was changed in WoW because Blizzard had to 'balance' abilities for PvP instead of just making abilities in PvP and PvE work differently.

It never happened. Blizzard screwed PvE for the sake of PvP instead of seperating the two. Perhaps Turbine has picked up some fails from the Blizzard team?

The best MMO with the most loyal playerbase will only exist once the people who design and sell it tell the players everything. With all this hush-hush going on, and all these plans and secrets being kept from players, it'll end in disaster.

Stop hiding stuff from us, Turbine! Tell us what is going on and why!

[Flixxer]

I have to say I hate this 15 sec recharge of wings, I specially bought fvs to play of one unique ability, because you know what he is fun to play, like my pale master is fun to play and farm, like my kotc pally is fun to play with devil encounters. You taking this away now, you spent so much time doing this prestige class for fvs which is actually sucks, compared to other prestige classes we get in this game, because ok we get +10-20% to our damage on tanker strike and combined with divine punishement it aggroes bosses enough to stay focused on you for quite a long time. You call it a balance? Well maybe we should nerf pale masters and archamages, because they have abilities, very good in one or another quest( in farming specifically)! Hey you know what you should nerf all self sufficient melee character which run solo quests, because they are overpowered as they run solo quests and they can cure/heal and damage. This change will "rewind" my view on fvs, because it is not fun to play him anymore and will consider tr him into wizzard for better game experience. With these new mmorpg coming out there is a lot of competition going on Turbine (upcoming Arch Age, Soul and Blood, Swtor and others which are quite promising and interesting to play) . Hey I like d&d, but you take from players what they really like and make changes to where it is not necessary (like we developed new raid, which we think is awesome, however we overlooked something so it is easier for us to nerf the current system, than to make changes in our new proposed raid content), making players to shift their focus to more entertaining and player focused mmorpgs.
Somebody mentioned wow in here, I also played that and had fun with it, up until Wraith of Lich King when blizzard shifted their focus from entertaining pve to pvp, this concept pushed away many players, making wow from one of the best games to decaying player-base.
I do not about you guys, but for me it is like this: If a game does not bring me fun I shift focus to the game which brings me that fun, because like an average person I work and do not want to have my fun in game to grow into frustration, like what happened with wow and few other mmorpgs....

BTW
those fvs which done epic: where mostly nukers and some melee build fvs, ok I melee fvs for me is good, but nukers where mostly using bb (well i do not really think) and divine punishement (yeah this thing can reach 600-700 dmg per 3 sec) just nuking him, and why they used fvs because simply to put turbine didn't work out their raid so to avoid him someone evasive has to be used, and who can quickly escape and make a range from boss? FVS! I do believe that devine punishment has it's imprint in here, the old fvs w/o devine punishement wold take much longer to kite through bb and using searing light, comet fall and other spells + much more sp pots used

[Missing_Minds]

except we all know why they did it.

It was done in a fit of pique. The clipping of the wings has not been on the drawing board for two years. The devs over reacted to a singular incident involving the new LoB raid.

Then all of a sudden its under review? Then nerfed within 48 hours? Sounds like a well planned out swing of the nerf bat or a knee jerk reaction on their part?

Hardly. Many a player realized just how powerful this was at release, let alone how much it just ignored "slow" status effects. I've been expecting something to happen for some time. Heck, I expected it with monks honestly, but the ki consideration was a huge balance check.

However, I will grant you a lot of bad decisions for the game were made in the fit of pique as you have termed it. This one is fairly inconsequential in the long run and has zero effect on my playstyle.

[EvilI]

This.


Also, think of PnP. If a player had, say, an enchantment-specced Wizard who had great DCs, and you, as the DM, had a fight planned that was mostly low-Will save guys, would you blame the player for Dominating/Charming most of your bad guys and making the fight look like a joke? Would you, as the DM, say, "Those spells are too good. They're not gonna work the way they do anymore." Or, more analogous to what we're talking about, say, "I don't like you charming more than one guy at a time. It's not how I envisioned you beating the fight. You can only memorize one Charm Monster, now." That's a prime example of BAD dming.

This. I dont like being told what tactics I'm allowed to use when playing a game.

[TechNoFear]

Here's what I'm saying. The combination of Divine Punishment (DoT) plus Leap of Faith (LoF) is one that decreased enjoyment for others. So, since the DoT is new and LoF is old, it would be more reasonable and respectful to the players of this game to change what is newer.

'Path of least resistance'.

Divine Punishment is shared by clerics, so nerfing DP nerfs clerics (which do not need it).

Nerfing all DoTs nerfs even more classes.

LoF is single class and limiting its abilities solves the major issue of kiting bosses (or fighting bosses in a way that discourages group tactics).

In addition, what quests/raids would this DoT and LoF combo be used? I certainly can't imagine it ever being used in ToD, VoD, Reavers Fate, DQ, Shroud, etc. Maybe Hound?

This tactic could be used in most current raids, but as it annoys other players, is a recent addition and is not required to succeed, it is not commonly used.

But raid bosses just got harder didn't they?