Eladrin - a request for an AC experiment on Lamannia

[grodon9999]

Better...maybe. I think TWF AC might still be ahead for DPS, but if it truly did make S&B better in light of everything else (damage reduction, threat and comparable DPS) there would be a problem.

but it will NOT be ahead of threat and you need fewer stats raise so you'll have more room for STR and CON. When in DPS-mode the S&Ber will be switching to a Two-hander.

Junt's pally can hit 84 AC while using an Epic Sword of Shadows, a guildy of mine posted a first-life pally build who can get 88 AC while TWFing in heavy armor.

I got a TWFing defender build, the damage is okay. it's not bad but it's nowhere near what a real DPS build will put out.

[sephiroth1084]

You see here is where I was coming from..... They are indeed seprate issues, but are some what related as well. Making AC useful, does not make S&B anymore useful or desirable than it is now.

That is patently false. Part of the reason that AC isn't desirable is because it doesn't work. I have a S&B AC tank, and I rarely take him into epic quests, even though he has incredible gear, decent DPS and is very survivable. Why? Because his AC doesn't mean anything in epics. I don't give a **** if the pajamas guy next to me is also not getting hit. It's not like hasn't spend as much time farming gear as I have. We're in the same boat right now: the main focus for the both of us is entirely wasted. The pajamas guy at least can swap some gear, turn on PA and be almost identical to a DPS toon. I can't do that, even when swapping to a 2-hander.

Your problem is that you seem to think that the core issue is the disparity between the different approaches to AC, but it's not. It's the disparity between content in which AC works and that in which it doesn't. Here's a greater comparison: I'm not jealous, on my AC tank, of the wizards who are flying through quests. I don't propose a solution that balances the way monsters approach me in the same context as the way the wizard approaches the monsters.

The fixes can be implemented concurrently, but it's a mistake to think that a solution to the pajamas vs. shield problem has to come at the same time as the one to endgame to-hit scores, or that it has to happen first. Besides, it already has been getting addressed with the boosts to the shield feats. Not completely, but it's in the works.

but it will NOT be ahead of threat and you need fewer stats raise so you'll have more room for STR and CON. When in DPS-mode the S&Ber will be switching to a Two-hander.

While in S&B mode there is still a major disparity between TWF and 1-handed DPS, which is what I was referring to. That lessens as you go higher on AC and more and more gear on the TWF side has to be devoted to Dex (and Wis) and then to Dex raises instead of Str at the highest end, but the transition from S&B to two-handed weapon results (usually) in less of a DPS gain than TWF AC to TWF DPS. My point was just that I don't think S&B should totally eclipse TWF (I guess stick builds fall here as well) AC in every way. I'm fine with S&B having about the same AC, more damage mitigation and threat, while the pajamas have a little more DPS.

Junt's pally can hit 84 AC while using an Epic Sword of Shadows, a guildy of mine posted a first-life pally build who can get 88 AC while TWFing in heavy armor.

I got a TWFing defender build, the damage is okay. it's not bad but it's nowhere near what a real DPS build will put out.

My tank has reasonable DPS when he puts the shield away, but like Junts' Jaerlech, has relatively little DPS support built in--I can swap some gear and weapons, but there are no DPS feats other than PA and IC to back that up. The switch is a lot weaker than I would like (I liked that a lot better when my tank had GTWF), but I decided that other things were more important to me than the extra DPS.

[smatt]

That is patently false. Part of the reason that AC isn't desirable is because it doesn't work. I have a S&B AC tank, and I rarely take him into epic quests, even though he has incredible gear, decent DPS and is very survivable. Why? Because his AC doesn't mean anything in epics. I don't give a **** if the pajamas guy next to me is also not getting hit. It's not like hasn't spend as much time farming gear as I have. We're in the same boat right now: the main focus for the both of us is entirely wasted. The pajamas guy at least can swap some gear, turn on PA and be almost identical to a DPS toon. I can't do that, even when swapping to a 2-hander.

Um no what I said isn't false in any way.... You're telling me making a S&B NOT get hit, it will be more useful in an epic quest? Really, you mean you're taking a **** DPS S&B into an epic when a TWF with the same AC with no shield will FAR out DPS that S&B? Oh that's fun... I'm sure it will be a big hit with the masses... whoosh whoosh whoos whoosh on a mob for 30-50% longer than the TWF next to you on the same mob type. Yep that's useful...... In reality all the the to hit nerf on mobs would be would be a HUGE gain for the dress clan, and mean that S&B would be less of auseless resource drain.. At least in most cases... It would also as I said before further trivialize the Epic content since the melees would require far less resources from the caster contingent and therefore the caster contingent would have more resources to put forth into dealing with the mobs directly.

Your problem is that you seem to think that the core issue is the disparity between the different approaches to AC, but it's not. It's the disparity between content in which AC works and that in which it doesn't. Here's a greater comparison: I'm not jealous, on my AC tank, of the wizards who are flying through quests. I don't propose a solution that balances the way monsters approach me in the same context as the way the wizard approaches the monsters.

LOL, so I'm jealous? is that what you're implying? Not int he least.. I know exactly what the desparities are.... I'd simply like to see AC be made useful AND S&B useful..... But I also DON'T want to see dress wearers get MORE benfits, while S&B are left behind.. If neither, one, or both happens I won't really care... I will play or I won't.. But thinking I'm jealous.. Oh fer christ's sake.....

While in S&B mode there is still a major disparity between TWF and 1-handed DPS, which is what I was referring to. That lessens as you go higher on AC and more and more gear on the TWF side has to be devoted to Dex (and Wis) and then to Dex raises instead of Str at the highest end, but the transition from S&B to two-handed weapon results (usually) in less of a DPS gain than TWF AC to TWF DPS. My point was just that I don't think S&B should totally eclipse TWF (I guess stick builds fall here as well) AC in every way. I'm fine with S&B having about the same AC, more damage mitigation and threat, while the pajamas have a little more DPS.

Sure sure...

[sephiroth1084]

Um no what I said isn't false in any way.... You're telling me making a S&B NOT get hit, it will be more useful in an epic quest? Really, you mean you're taking a **** DPS S&B into an epic when a TWF with the same AC with no shield will FAR out DPS that S&B? Oh that's fun... I'm sure it will be a big hit with the masses... whoosh whoosh whoos whoosh on a mob for 30-50% longer than the TWF next to you on the same mob type. Yep that's useful...... In reality all the the to hit nerf on mobs would be would be a HUGE gain for the dress clan, and mean that S&B would be less of auseless resource drain.. At least in most cases... It would also as I said before further trivialize the Epic content since the melees would require far less resources from the caster contingent and therefore the caster contingent would have more resources to put forth into dealing with the mobs directly.

Pajamas AC builds aren't 30-50% DPS ahead of S&B builds. Simply dropping monster to-hit isn't going to greatly increase the stock of AC builds in epic parties since people have been crushing the content (to borrow an Axer-ism) for a good long time without anyone ever seeing a MISS on anything but a 1. New strategies to make use of that resource may arise, but how often do you see even low-level LFMs looking for someone with AC? Or raids? Little enough. That's not what the change is aimed at. It's aimed at allowing the people who have dedicated themselves to making and gearing such characters to play them in the content the way they should be played! New strategies may arise to lean on the AC tanks, whatever their focus, but that won't ever be a prevailing force in endgame content--there aren't enough people who have chosen that route and there will always be players who prefer faster times to lower resource usage.

You're looking at the problem from the perspective of making AC toons more attractive to LFMs, whereas I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who has an AC toon. Even raids that really benefit from having an AC tank rarely call for such an inclusion. I'd wager that less than 1 in 10 ToD or VoD runs features an AC tank, and far fewer looked for one.

LOL, so I'm jealous? is that what you're implying? Not int he least.. I know exactly what the desparities are.... I'd simply like to see AC be made useful AND S&B useful..... But I also DON'T want to see dress wearers get MORE benfits, while S&B are left behind.. If neither, one, or both happens I won't really care... I will play or I won't.. But thinking I'm jealous.. Oh fer christ's sake.....

Short of giving monsters a huge boost in physical damage to go along with their drop in to-hit, nothing is going to make AC characters useful in epic quests. Similarly, reducing the incoming damage on one or two characters isn't going result in a concordant increase in free SP for casters to spend. It's very difficult to avoid getting hit in quests where enemies tend to swarm parties from multiple directions unless they are being CC'ed, and that has almost zero relation to a single AC character in a quest. As far as healing goes, mass healing tends to rule the day, with scrolls as backup from what I can tell on the receiving end. As for arcanes, they can nuke, kill or CC everything just the same with AC tanks or heavy DPS builds, except that their CC doesn't go as far with the weaker melees. AC has no bearing on Wail of the Banshee, Circle or Finger of Death, and a negative impact on Web, Otto's and Hold.

[scottmike0]

Pajamas AC builds aren't 30-50% DPS ahead of S&B builds. Simply dropping monster to-hit isn't going to greatly increase the stock of AC builds in epic parties since people have been crushing the content (to borrow an Axer-ism) for a good long time without anyone ever seeing a MISS on anything but a 1. New strategies to make use of that resource may arise, but how often do you see even low-level LFMs looking for someone with AC? Or raids? Little enough. That's not what the change is aimed at. It's aimed at allowing the people who have dedicated themselves to making and gearing such characters to play them in the content the way they should be played! New strategies may arise to lean on the AC tanks, whatever their focus, but that won't ever be a prevailing force in endgame content--there aren't enough people who have chosen that route and there will always be players who prefer faster times to lower resource usage.

You're looking at the problem from the perspective of making AC toons more attractive to LFMs, whereas I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who has an AC toon. Even raids that really benefit from having an AC tank rarely call for such an inclusion. I'd wager that less than 1 in 10 ToD or VoD runs features an AC tank, and far fewer looked for one.

Short of giving monsters a huge boost in physical damage to go along with their drop in to-hit, nothing is going to make AC characters useful in epic quests. Similarly, reducing the incoming damage on one or two characters isn't going result in a concordant increase in free SP for casters to spend. It's very difficult to avoid getting hit in quests where enemies tend to swarm parties from multiple directions unless they are being CC'ed, and that has almost zero relation to a single AC character in a quest. As far as healing goes, mass healing tends to rule the day, with scrolls as backup from what I can tell on the receiving end. As for arcanes, they can nuke, kill or CC everything just the same with AC tanks or heavy DPS builds, except that their CC doesn't go as far with the weaker melees. AC has no bearing on Wail of the Banshee, Circle or Finger of Death, and a negative impact on Web, Otto's and Hold.

yet, my ac tank/dps tank/ self sufficent build can save against them all even though i take 200 damage i probably would cast deathward just incase i donnt get hit , the only thing you cant save from is otto or dispell but not many caster use it as much as my caster does. eventually i will have to test on how many times i get hit with 101 ac so far i've tried 85 and still was being hit yet not quite often as i am in dps mode. but of course my ac caster will stand out from the rest so its a win win situation.

[sirgog]

S&B DPS is widely underestimated.

Glancing blows on Bastard Swords are a significant source of DPS, and with the high fortification seen on Lamannia, Bastard Swords can give the Khopesh a real run for its money.

Of course, all of this is moot at the moment as on Live, S&B builds are hit by every epic purple-named on a 2, leaving them with nothing to show for their DPS sacrifice other than DR 20-25%/-.

[Feithlin]

You two are right in some sense, because there isn't only one problem with AC in epics.

1) Yes, the first thing is to make it usefull. By this I mean: AC should give a significant defense from epic mobs. An average value from my point of vue could be around +55-60 to hit for trash mobs, +65-70 for epic quests' bosses and something like +75-80 for bosses.
2) This is only a part of the problem, because as it goes now, there isn't a single problem with ressources during epic runs. When you hit mass heal or mass csw, who cares if you only took 100 damage and the other characters 300 when you're healed for 400? Tanks would only be usefull if ppl were fearing taking hits, i.e. if epic mobs hit harder.

The solution imo would be to transfer some to-hit to damage. Epic mobs could gain a major power attack, reducing their to-hit by 10 and increasing their damage by 20. But imo, the proposal I gave a bit earlier in this thread would be more efficient: introducing a margin of success to attack that would increase the damage proportionaly to the value the total to-hit (w/ die roll) has hit the character.

This way, ppl would like having someone geting the attention of mobs to take their hits, while the healer(s) wouldn't have too much trouble keeping him alive (since of no AC tank would take a trunk load of damage). S&B, while not having as much dps as pyjamas (which seems fine to me), would bring some more damage mitigation.

*Edit: an old proposition I made to make CE give +10 AC instead of +5 when wielding a shield (in a similar way THF applies twice PA), and that grodon bumped recently, would also help to make S&B a bit more sexy.

[LeLoric]

S&B DPS is widely underestimated.

Glancing blows on Bastard Swords are a significant source of DPS, and with the high fortification seen on Lamannia, Bastard Swords can give the Khopesh a real run for its money.

Of course, all of this is moot at the moment as on Live, S&B builds are hit by every epic purple-named on a 2, leaving them with nothing to show for their DPS sacrifice other than DR 20-25%/-.

This is true. The dps values are actually narrowing quite a bit. Glancings and even shield bashes with the imp shield bash feat while not making up completely for an offhand weapon the gap is considerably less than it was 4 months ago.

You are also right with epics. There is no benefit to being ac geared and shield toting in epic content. Even the extra hp from the future changes just means defender builds are barbs but with significantly less dps.

[sephiroth1084]

yet, my ac tank/dps tank/ self sufficent build can save against them all even though i take 200 damage i probably would cast deathward just incase i donnt get hit , the only thing you cant save from is otto or dispell but not many caster use it as much as my caster does. eventually i will have to test on how many times i get hit with 101 ac so far i've tried 85 and still was being hit yet not quite often as i am in dps mode. but of course my ac caster will stand out from the rest so its a win win situation.

Think you failed your roll on reading comprehension. The spells I listed were what player casters are doing to monsters.

You two are right in some sense, because there isn't only one problem with AC in epics.

1) Yes, the first thing is to make it usefull. By this I mean: AC should give a significant defense from epic mobs. An average value from my point of vue could be around +55-60 to hit for trash mobs, +65-70 for epic quests' bosses and something like +75-80 for bosses.
2) This is only a part of the problem, because as it goes now, there isn't a single problem with ressources during epic runs. When you hit mass heal or mass csw, who cares if you only took 100 damage and the other characters 300 when you're healed for 400? Tanks would only be usefull if ppl were fearing taking hits, i.e. if epic mobs hit harder.

The solution imo would be to transfer some to-hit to damage. Epic mobs could gain a major power attack, reducing their to-hit by 10 and increasing their damage by 20. But imo, the proposal I gave a bit earlier in this thread would be more efficient: introducing a margin of success to attack that would increase the damage proportionaly to the value the total to-hit (w/ die roll) has hit the character.

This way, ppl would like having someone geting the attention of mobs to take their hits, while the healer(s) wouldn't have too much trouble keeping him alive (since of no AC tank would take a trunk load of damage). S&B, while not having as much dps as pyjamas (which seems fine to me), would bring some more damage mitigation.

*Edit: an old proposition I made to make CE give +10 AC instead of +5 when wielding a shield (in a similar way THF applies twice PA), and that grodon bumped recently, would also help to make S&B a bit more sexy.

I'd be in favor of (and have said for a while) reducing to-hit values (and maybe HP) and bumping up damage quite a bit, putting a greater emphasis on solid CC, quick kills and AC characters who can manage aggro, as well as putting a greater strain on resources.

55-60 seems a bit low for epics, but 60-65 for trash seems reasonable.

[sirgog]

Think you failed your roll on reading comprehension. The spells I listed were what player casters are doing to monsters.

I'd be in favor of (and have said for a while) reducing to-hit values (and maybe HP) and bumping up damage quite a bit, putting a greater emphasis on solid CC, quick kills and AC characters who can manage aggro, as well as putting a greater strain on resources.

55-60 seems a bit low for epics, but 60-65 for trash seems reasonable.

I think the key is having very varied trash to-hits.

One mob in an encounter with a low To-Hit (say 35+2d20) that hits like a truck, and two others at 50+2d20 that hit for more modest amounts.

The main reason, however, that we don't really use tanking on trash is that player healing is so hyper-efficient, and our HP pools are so small, that we can be healed from 10% to 100% with a 0.35 second cast time Heal spell.

If Turbine really want to make tanking relevant, they should significantly increase player HP pools and also mob damage, and at the same time tone down healing amplification. Combined, that really amounts to a nerf to player healing. That would make damage mitigation very relevant, but would be quite a shakeup of play mechanics.

[Riggs]

I think the key is having very varied trash to-hits.

One mob in an encounter with a low To-Hit (say 35+2d20) that hits like a truck, and two others at 50+2d20 that hit for more modest amounts.

The main reason, however, that we don't really use tanking on trash is that player healing is so hyper-efficient, and our HP pools are so small, that we can be healed from 10% to 100% with a 0.35 second cast time Heal spell.

If Turbine really want to make tanking relevant, they should significantly increase player HP pools and also mob damage, and at the same time tone down healing amplification. Combined, that really amounts to a nerf to player healing. That would make damage mitigation very relevant, but would be quite a shakeup of play mechanics.

Sadly power creep is too far gone - to add hp it would throw the game even more out of whack, and totally unbalance lower levels from 1-19 (if players had 2x or 3x the hp).

Players and monsters should never have started hitting for 60-100 damage in the first place, with spells hitting stupid high amounts on both sides of the pve.

Blame the khopesh getting x3 crits and the Sos starting the unbalance - and Turbine just hunkered down and went full speed ahead with the constant upgrades instead of nurfing those two stupidly powerful weapons way back when it wouldnt have hurt too bad. They really started all the silliness.

[noinfo]

You two are right in some sense, because there isn't only one problem with AC in epics.

1) Yes, the first thing is to make it usefull. By this I mean: AC should give a significant defense from epic mobs. An average value from my point of vue could be around +55-60 to hit for trash mobs, +65-70 for epic quests' bosses and something like +75-80 for bosses.
2) This is only a part of the problem, because as it goes now, there isn't a single problem with ressources during epic runs. When you hit mass heal or mass csw, who cares if you only took 100 damage and the other characters 300 when you're healed for 400? Tanks would only be usefull if ppl were fearing taking hits, i.e. if epic mobs hit harder.

The solution imo would be to transfer some to-hit to damage. Epic mobs could gain a major power attack, reducing their to-hit by 10 and increasing their damage by 20. But imo, the proposal I gave a bit earlier in this thread would be more efficient: introducing a margin of success to attack that would increase the damage proportionaly to the value the total to-hit (w/ die roll) has hit the character.

This way, ppl would like having someone geting the attention of mobs to take their hits, while the healer(s) wouldn't have too much trouble keeping him alive (since of no AC tank would take a trunk load of damage). S&B, while not having as much dps as pyjamas (which seems fine to me), would bring some more damage mitigation.

*Edit: an old proposition I made to make CE give +10 AC instead of +5 when wielding a shield (in a similar way THF applies twice PA), and that grodon bumped recently, would also help to make S&B a bit more sexy.

No to more mob damage number, yes to stacking fortification debuffs instead.

[Feithlin]

No to more mob damage number, yes to stacking fortification debuffs instead.

That's another interesting option.

[Khellendros13]

Bump for Dev attention

[NaturalHazard]

/signed

great idea sirgog.

[NaturalHazard]

Sadly power creep is too far gone - to add hp it would throw the game even more out of whack, and totally unbalance lower levels from 1-19 (if players had 2x or 3x the hp).

Players and monsters should never have started hitting for 60-100 damage in the first place, with spells hitting stupid high amounts on both sides of the pve.

Blame the khopesh getting x3 crits and the Sos starting the unbalance - and Turbine just hunkered down and went full speed ahead with the constant upgrades instead of nurfing those two stupidly powerful weapons way back when it wouldnt have hurt too bad. They really started all the silliness.

what would the game be like with no khopesh and no esos?

would it totally kill 2handed fighting? would it mean all the melee would be using rapiers and scimitars? cept for monks of course.

Spell damage with dots now seems to do a lot of damage, im no number cruncher but is it higher than top end melee now?

[xandariant]

No to more mob damage number, yes to stacking fortification debuffs instead.

/signed.
It would be usefull and would benefit all those stacking fortification items if mobs were to make 100% fort to be around 60% at best (possibly stacking 2 or 3 times for -10% or -15%). Crits would be feared.
Now everyone has 100% fort and wont worry 1 bit about crits.

It would also make that extra fort for WF and new Epic Chimera's Fang useful.
This way tanks with chimera would be more useful and needed and arcanes other than WFs would fear being hit be mobs for a lot of dmg.

I totally would like stacking fort debufs for mobs and maybe players too (other than rogue).
Well not all mobe but some of waves of mobs that would prep party for 2nd wave that will do more dmg.

I would like adding bard song that would add fort (like 20%) and decrease double strike attack. It would be an opposition what is now, since with alchemical weapons a lot of ppl will have that 6% double attack chance.

[sirgog]

Sadly power creep is too far gone - to add hp it would throw the game even more out of whack, and totally unbalance lower levels from 1-19 (if players had 2x or 3x the hp).

Players and monsters should never have started hitting for 60-100 damage in the first place, with spells hitting stupid high amounts on both sides of the pve.

Blame the khopesh getting x3 crits and the Sos starting the unbalance - and Turbine just hunkered down and went full speed ahead with the constant upgrades instead of nurfing those two stupidly powerful weapons way back when it wouldnt have hurt too bad. They really started all the silliness.

What started the escalation was Wall of Fire. The Devs realised that it made <1500hp mobs too fragile in its incarnation back then (multiple walls in one spot stacked and all dealt damage), and started to use higher HP trash mobs to compensate. Like the ~3500hp orthons in Normal Shroud, which have ~8-10k on Elite IIRC.

Still, power creep is here to stay, and the worst offender in power creep, IMO, is instant-cast Heal, which has been in the game longer than me. That spell heals for too much compared to player HP bars for anything to be challenging that isn't extremely fast incoming damage.

Back on AC, however - giving bosses the ability to use AC debuffs such as Sunder on tanks also helps keep AC builds in check a little. IMO a boss with modest to-hit (say 45+3d20 at current player gear levels) with an on-vorpal proc that drops the target's AC by 3 for 30 seconds and that stacks with itself without limit could really make for some interesting fights.

/signed.
It would be usefull and would benefit all those stacking fortification items if mobs were to make 100% fort to be around 60% at best (possibly stacking 2 or 3 times for -10% or -15%). Crits would be feared.
Now everyone has 100% fort and wont worry 1 bit about crits.

It would also make that extra fort for WF and new Epic Chimera's Fang useful.
This way tanks with chimera would be more useful and needed and arcanes other than WFs would fear being hit be mobs for a lot of dmg.

I totally would like stacking fort debufs for mobs and maybe players too (other than rogue).
Well not all mobe but some of waves of mobs that would prep party for 2nd wave that will do more dmg.

I would like adding bard song that would add fort (like 20%) and decrease double strike attack. It would be an opposition what is now, since with alchemical weapons a lot of ppl will have that 6% double attack chance.

Not sure why people fear crits so much. Rolling a 1 on Horoth's DBF is more damage than suffering a melee critical hit from him.

I only fear crits from one boss in game. Epic Demon of the Frenzied Blood.

[xandariant]

Not sure why people fear crits so much. Rolling a 1 on Horoth's DBF is more damage than suffering a melee critical hit from him.

I only fear crits from one boss in game. Epic Demon of the Frenzied Blood.

I said it would be nice for mobs, not for bosses. Boss can do it too, but the main reason is for trash.

For example VOD. If wave of elite Ortons would decrease players fort, then every single beard devil could hurt them until their fort could be restored (it should take few min).

I always thought about trash mobs, but boss especially in VOD who does a random agro would should also have it . It just would be fun in places when a lot mobs attack you at once or for epics.
Players would stop feeling so sure about their fort.

Also adding augumant crystal with exceptional fortification +10% (like Greater Stalwart Trinket) would be nice then.

[grodon9999]

what would the game be like with no khopesh and no esos?

would it totally kill 2handed fighting? would it mean all the melee would be using rapiers and scimitars? cept for monks of course.

Spell damage with dots now seems to do a lot of damage, im no number cruncher but is it higher than top end melee now?

if there was no Khopesh TWFers would be using scimitars, rapiers, and D-Axes. They'd take a 4-7% loss in DPS.

If there was no ESoS it would give Turbine the option to balance the styles instead of giving one ubber-weapon that you absolutely need that people have lost their sanity pursuing.