Eladrin - a request for an AC experiment on Lamannia

[smatt]

[quote=grodon9999;4038554]it really won't make the game more trivial, in content where we already crush stuff it won't matter one way or another. [quote] Who crushes? Oh wait a small part of the gaming population does. That's where it gets difficult to balance.....

What it does do is remove another blanket immunity, and blanket immunities as just stupid.

Oh blanket immunites??? Like FoM, DW, casters with cold shield, mass pro, Shroud aborbtion items, high scale energy resists all stacked up, that more or less make them close to immune to elemental damage..... Those types? But yes, I can agree that blanket immunites are annoying, but I don't think they're anything more than that and not out of the realm of D&D and therefore not out of the realm of DDO.

[smatt]

I'm just saying that making AC useful in epics isn't going to break anything, at least nowhere near as much as casters do.

And it won't help S&B at all, but it would make epics even easier than they are now without further adjustments

My point is that improving monster AC is targeting different stats than increasing player AC. The two are completely unrelated. Increasing monster AC targets players' attack bonuses, which needs doing, but has no bearing whatsoever on player AC.

I see it as a bigger picture though....

How can the endgame be trivialized by characters being difficult to hit? It's not like people are calling for 50 AC to be useful damage mitigating at endgame. I'm sorry, but I cannot see how characters who can actually manage to not get hit will break the endgame.

Looking at some of the proposals from players, what I see is that what will truly benefit are the TWF dress wearers, sicne the AC benchmarks I see can be achieved by them as easily as a LOWER DPS S&B, as well as low BAB splash builds. It's a little band aid, it's not a solution at all. What it will do is decrease party damage, so it will in fact make the content easier, less resource intensive. Caster of all types will still be kings of course but melees won't get beat to snot, I agree that something needs to be done though. But simply Saying AC should matter and makign it matter will create another set of problems.

They don't need to be much more desirable, they need to be viable. Even in content where AC rules (ie lvl 1-10), no one sits around waiting for an AC tank. I don't expect this to change. What needs changing is the accommodation that characters who are focused on AC have at end game. There is a huge difference between parties not looking for AC tanks and AC tanks who feel like all of their effort has been a waste because it's meaningless at endgame. I'm calling for a fix to the latter, not necessarily the former.

Sure, sure.. I agree again... And making AC builds useful and fun to play , will onyl increase cster power further. How you may ask? Melees take far less damage, caster have even more resources to burn. It may seem a trivial issue, but it's those issues that seem trivial, that can end up being BIG issues that cause even more problems.

There will be pluses and minuses for both heavily armored and unarmored AC styles. I'm not calling for fixes to that disparity, I'm calling for a fix to the AC/monster to-hit system at endgame. S&B tanks have gotten some love and now offer some rather unique benefits when compared to pajama AC builds, but neither the S&B nor the PJs wearer are of any value if monsters are routinely hitting AC 100.

Again, I agree that the slaughter of 100AC or even 90AC toons is dumb even if they are wearing a dress. But what I'm seeign proposed wont' help S&B at all, it will be a HUGE step for the Dress wearers and the extreme splashes. The latest help for S&B was a start, but you see they still fall far behind in the pure DPS area, sure they can generate hate and all, but will still only be useful in a couple quests gamewide, and oterhwise will mroe or less be worthless the rest of the time. OK, so you have a dress wearing toon that does 40% more damage and can hit the same AC benchmark. Even IF a S&B can generate the extra hate to hold agro over that, where's this new found advantage they have ove rthe dress earer? That little spit of DR? Does that REALLY make a huge difference, sure in a few groups it might, in most groups not at all.

Which is my point: improving AC toons at endgame isn't going to break anything. All I'm asking for is the ability to take my character built for AC into epic quests and raids and actually see enough instances of "MISS" to justify holding that shield, keeping on the Chaosgardes, etc...rather than swapping to DPS mode every time I step into such content.

But it will help the dress earers FAR more, they swing more.... If they get hit less there will be a larger disparity between them and the S&B. That's what I'm saying... S&B will still not be fun... Nor will it be desirable in anything but a couple of the raids, not anymore desirable than it is currently.

Sure, there will be a few quests where having a solid AC tank will make things run a little more smoothly when in a mediocre group, or in a decent group with a poor caster. We need a little variety in the way quests are approached.

Yes yes I want more usefulness as well.... I agree completely with this.... BUT my point here and all along has been that it's simply not as easy as SOME people think it is, and requires far more than this little fix or that little fix. Point.... They gave out DoT spells because so many casters complained about being useless in some of the raids and quests. They felt like buff bots. Standing around waiting, which for me is part fo the game at times, every class can't be kil lamchines 100% of the time. Look what DoTs have done.... Yes, I love them and use them ALL THE TIME, but they have yet again trivialized most of the content in the game. Would you have said that ws going to happen prior to them coming out?

I'm not bashing the discussion at all.... I'm just saying it's not THAT easy of a problem to correct and short sighted self agrandizing, self benefitting solutions will likely lead to OTHER problems.

[Riggs]

As suggested before, if shields = less dps, then shields should add a significant amount - up to 50%, of damage mitigation to compensate.

A few points of AC mattered in pnp, but doesnt matter much in DDO.

Add the benefits of shield blocking for shield mastery and defender builds.

Increase the DR from using shields - ANYONE using a shield gets dr, defender lines get more - up to full blocking dr at max. Or even a % reduction, which should include AOE and spell damage.

Sa 2/4/6 for small/medium/tower shield - mastery feats add 3 dr each (so 12 dr with both feats and a tower shield), and the 3 defender lines add at least 3 per tier on top - or maybe 5 per tier.

A shield should add something useful in DDO - and currently it makes a character weaker not stronger or at least not balanced with two weapons.

Think Greek shield phalanx and 300, +4 ac doesnt cover it in the slightest.

[sirgog]

Given people's concern about TWF dress wearer ACs, I think the solution to that is higher AC on shields.

Degenerate ACs will still be possible (Dex/Wis based toons), but are pretty terrible overall as they just can't hold aggro in most situations.

[grodon9999]

Given people's concern about TWF dress wearer ACs, I think the solution to that is higher AC on shields.

Have Combat Expertise give a +10 if a shield is equipped. Issue solved.

Degenerate ACs will still be possible (Dex/Wis based toons), but are pretty terrible overall as they just can't hold aggro in most situations.

Exactly, you need to generate threat.

[noinfo]

And it won't help S&B at all, but it would make epics even easier than they are now without further adjustments

Really? I would luv to hear how this is the case?

It would change nothing regarding difficulty except letting those AC builds in the run contribute more effectively.

Shield users are already LESS affected in Epics now and in other areas because they can simply put the shield away and pull out a 2 hander doing sigificantly more damage than the splashes who go full attack mode.

When they pull out the shield they get a % dr on attacks, this is certainly not trivial and generate a heap of agro now based on the new update.

AC based toons are not going to trivialise anything, if you think they are going to go in there and solo an epic like a caster well maybe they could if ac were relevant but who cares? How long would you be prepared to take for that achievement? Does wasting 3 hours doing something a party could do in 20 min give you better rewards? (appart from the obvious feeling of achievement)

While I will agree with others giving shield users +10 bonus for CE is quite reasonable and inline with PA and 2 Handed weapons, this is where I draw the line. Any further bonuses to S/B to so call ballance splashes can happen when you are able to toggle half the wisdom/dex expended in those splashes into Attack/Tohit and damage instead of AC.

While the devs have not done anything useful as far as AC goes since they completely screwed it with grazing hits they have managed to almost ballance it between the splashes and the shield users. Now if only they could ballance it in PVE.

[Riggs]

As suggested before, if shields = less dps, then shields should add a significant amount - up to 50%, of damage mitigation to compensate.

And regarding shields as DR - grazing hits at least would see a change even if left as is - a twf with a high ac will still get grazed, while a 20 dr shield user will at least significantly reduce some of the extra damage.

A full defender 3 with shield mastery feats however should get the 30-40 dr of blocking along with not getting hit by special attacks (while not moving) - as endgame damage makes a 6 dr, or 10 dr stoneskin trivial (and monk/fvs 10 dr too is trivial compared to how useful it would have been in pnp).

But grazing hits still needs to be reduced to an 18 or better at most. 13 is just stupid.

[MaxwellEdison]

Defender tier 1 - 25% chance to have incoming physical attack treated as if you were shield blocking.
Defender tier 2 - Block proc increased to 35%
Defender tier 3 - Block proc increased to 50%

Discuss.

[phum]

They could make shield bash more usable. For example something like

Shield bash
In ur attack cycle you have a x% chance to add bashing attacks with your shield.

Imp shield bash
In ur attack cycle you have a 2x% chance to add bashing attacks with your shield. While carrying out a bashing attack you are considered to be blocking.

This would make it have slightly better dps (depending on chances) and basically you'd be blocking some of the time you are attacking. Of course x can't be something large. Imo max 15%. These feats would naturally require shield mastery and e.g. heavy armor proficiency. Something to prevent easy exploitation (unlikely tho as shield dps is nothing to mention really and the benefit requires you to be attacking).

[CaptGrim]

__

Defender tier 1 - 25% chance to have incoming physical attack treated as if you were shield blocking.
Defender tier 2 - Block proc increased to 35%
Defender tier 3 - Block proc increased to 50%

Discuss.

This would work but they shouldn't be tied to a PrE.

Change the shield mastery feats to use tech like this.

As to the most recent back and forth in this thread.... it seems to me there are 2 very seperate issuses here that are apples and oranges.

Apples: AC sucks endgame.

Change all CR 20+ mobs to a d20+d40 to hit roll
Change all CR 15-19 mobs to a d20+d20 to hit roll

This would help all AC users, S+B and PJ splashs.

Oranges: shield users gain (almost) only AC from using shields, while losing out on much DPS.

Revamp/add shield feats

Shield prof, 10% proc chance to shield bash, 10% chance to have hit count as active block.

Sheild bash, +20% proc to bash for total of 30%
Imp S bash, +20% proc to bash for total of 50%

Shield mastery, +20% active block chance
Imp S mastery, +20% active block chance for a total of 50%

With all 4 feat, 1 more than spent on either THF or TWF chain, S+B gains:

50% shield bash proc chance and 50% shield block chance.

These 2 changes would go a long way to help(solve?) both of these very differnt problems.

[Brannigan]

Eladrin where are you?

Oh thats right hoping this thread will just slip away so you dont have to worry about it, wait a sec your already not worrying or bothering about it and the good ideas in this thread, heck the shield one has already died a death... a few more days and your mission of ignoring the issue until it goes away again will be complete...

[sephiroth1084]

The revised Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash feats do a lot to improve the stock of shields, but there could stand to be a little more given along those same lines, if only to reflect the fact that equipping a shield is necessarily accepting a loss of DPS, and that those feats don't really replace stuff like TWF and THF, which puts a tremendous burden on characters who were already under strain. That said, I don't think they need the sorts of revisions or rewrites a lot of people are suggesting here.

Shields should come with an inherent 5/10/15% damage mitigation that gets improved by 10/15/20% with Shield Mastery and 5% with Improved Shield Master (which should add something else as well), and should have an inherent 20% bash chance with the feat granting an additional 20%.

After all, you get 20% off-hand attacks before picking up a TWF feat, glancing blows with any two-handed weapon.

[sephiroth1084]

On the topic of pajamas AC vs. S&B, anything that improved the one indirectly improves the other. Lowering monster to-hit doesn't really benefit one much more than the other, and that difference shouldn't prevent a general approach to the AC problem.

While they are related, they necessarily have to be addressed separately. We can't fix them together, the AC system in general and the difference between the two styles, because there are too many moving parts, and the causes for the problems with each piece are separate from those of each other piece.

[grodon9999]

Shields should come with an inherent 5/10/15% damage mitigation that gets improved by 10/15/20% with Shield Mastery and 5% with Improved Shield Master (which should add something else as well), and should have an inherent 20% bash chance with the feat granting an additional 20%.

After all, you get 20% off-hand attacks before picking up a TWF feat, glancing blows with any two-handed weapon.

Agreed.

[Riggs]

The revised Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash feats do a lot to improve the stock of shields, but there could stand to be a little more given along those same lines, if only to reflect the fact that equipping a shield is necessarily accepting a loss of DPS, and that those feats don't really replace stuff like TWF and THF, which puts a tremendous burden on characters who were already under strain. That said, I don't think they need the sorts of revisions or rewrites a lot of people are suggesting here.

Shields should come with an inherent 5/10/15% damage mitigation that gets improved by 10/15/20% with Shield Mastery and 5% with Improved Shield Master (which should add something else as well), and should have an inherent 20% bash chance with the feat granting an additional 20%.

After all, you get 20% off-hand attacks before picking up a TWF feat, glancing blows with any two-handed weapon.

By that math, a shield with no feats should be 20%(damage mitigation, as shield bash is not a valid or logical reason to put a shield on over a second weapon) at the start. Take the 2 feats and you are up to 60%.

Defender lines bring you up to 100% by tier 2.

Since each twf feat adds 20% to off hand attacks....

[grodon9999]

On the topic of pajamas AC vs. S&B, anything that improved the one indirectly improves the other. Lowering monster to-hit doesn't really benefit one much more than the other, and that difference shouldn't prevent a general approach to the AC problem.

While they are related, they necessarily have to be addressed separately. We can't fix them together, the AC system in general and the difference between the two styles, because there are too many moving parts, and the causes for the problems with each piece are separate from those of each other piece.

+10 AC for CE if you have a Shield equipped makes Armor > Pajamas.

More protection (AC), additional damage mitigation (from shield mastery), and more threat.

[Riggs]

On the topic of pajamas AC vs. S&B, anything that improved the one indirectly improves the other. Lowering monster to-hit doesn't really benefit one much more than the other, and that difference shouldn't prevent a general approach to the AC problem.

While they are related, they necessarily have to be addressed separately. We can't fix them together, the AC system in general and the difference between the two styles, because there are too many moving parts, and the causes for the problems with each piece are separate from those of each other piece.

Fixing two problems at the same time however should not be impossible.

Considering the amount of ideas and consensus over some of the issues in just a couple days - it should not be asking for the moon to make two changes that benefit the game in a big way.

[Riggs]

+10 AC for CE if you have a Shield equipped makes Armor > Pajamas.

More protection (AC), additional damage mitigation (from shield mastery), and more threat.

Someone should not need to activate CE, requiring Int 13, a feat, and -5 to attack just to make a shield useful.

Shields should be useful with 0 feats, and the benefit going up with the mastery feats and defender lines.

[sephiroth1084]

By that math, a shield with no feats should be 20%(damage mitigation, as shield bash is not a valid or logical reason to put a shield on over a second weapon) at the start. Take the 2 feats and you are up to 60%.

Defender lines bring you up to 100% by tier 2.

Since each twf feat adds 20% to off hand attacks....

Are you talking about bashing or damage mitigation?

+10 AC for CE if you have a Shield equipped makes Armor > Pajamas.
More protection (AC), additional damage mitigation (from shield mastery), and more threat.

Better...maybe. I think TWF AC might still be ahead for DPS, but if it truly did make S&B better in light of everything else (damage reduction, threat and comparable DPS) there would be a problem.

This is an example of what I was saying elsewhere: a solution of sorts to the Dex vs. S&B problem that doesn't have anything to do with the problem of AC in general.

Fixing two problems at the same time however should not be impossible.

Considering the amount of ideas and consensus over some of the issues in just a couple days - it should not be asking for the moon to make two changes that benefit the game in a big way.

The changes are necessarily separate, though. Look at the CE solution: it normalizes the different routes to attaining AC, but they're still both woefully handicapped, or made entirely irrelevant by insane monster attack bonuses.

Someone should not need to activate CE, requiring Int 13, a feat, and -5 to attack just to make a shield useful.

Shields should be useful with 0 feats, and the benefit going up with the mastery feats and defender lines.

Is TWF useful with no feats? Not really. -10 to your attacks and 20% off-hand. My proposal of the baseline damage mitigation and bashing would put using a shield ahead of that by a bit, due to the ability for a DPS character to strap on a shield when they need it, but I think it's a reasonable suggestion.

I agree that making CE the balancing point leaves something to be desired, but I think that CE + Shield Mastery + Improved Shield Bash is a reasonable approach.

[smatt]

On the topic of pajamas AC vs. S&B, anything that improved the one indirectly improves the other. Lowering monster to-hit doesn't really benefit one much more than the other, and that difference shouldn't prevent a general approach to the AC problem.

While they are related, they necessarily have to be addressed separately. We can't fix them together, the AC system in general and the difference between the two styles, because there are too many moving parts, and the causes for the problems with each piece are separate from those of each other piece.

You see here is where I was coming from..... They are indeed seprate issues, but are some what related as well. Making AC useful, does not make S&B anymore useful or desirable than it is now. And I still say that an accross the board reduction of mob to hit in end game content would benefit the dress wearers more, simply by default. I'm not sayign that dress wearers should be nerfed... But I don't think they should gain anymore than than any other melee class either.

BUT, some of the ideas I'm seeing thrown out NOW seem to be good ones, not the duct tape type, that would lead to more problems. Increased damge mitigation throught he use of a shield that is tied to the feat and enhancement lines is the way to go. BUT if it further reduces DPS, then it's pointless. The only time that additional threat really palys a part is in say raid situation wher it's key for the high AC high DR character needs to hold agro. Otherwise threat is more or less useless in 99% of the game. As we all know, no matter what, DPS is the king....