Eladrin - a request for an AC experiment on Lamannia

[grodon9999]

.
Last time I checked the sirens ward set scrolls weren't selling for 30 red scales like the marilith chain.

WHAT? I literally got mine for a Chipmunk Funk, not kidding.
(Siren's scroll, not marilith chain)

AC can't be balanced against. It's too limiting a system.

That's absolute BS. There have been many great suggestions that will work including the what was suggested in the OP. Some people just don't want it to work because they have so much invested in the "MOAR DPS!!! MOAR HP!!! HJEAL MEH!!!!" neanderthal game style.

Without damage mitigation there is no point in a defender line at all.

And how the heck does an FvS get 800 HP? Simply asking how.

[The_Brave2]

And how the heck does an FvS get 800 HP? Simply asking how.

Not going to do the specific hp config, but basically:

WF, 20 Starting CON
GS HP
+7 con
1/2 Exc con
SFL
Toughness feat
Toughness enhancements
Toughness item
Rage Pot
Yugo Pot

[sephiroth1084]

He has none. He wasted ages getting AC related gear and wants epic to be a joke for his AC related character.

Goes as far as to say its "easy" to build a proper DPS barb taht can tank on epic. Which is ludicrous.

Gear needed to get top DPS is FAR harder to get then top AC gear simply because the demand is so much higher.

The demand might be higher for the individual pieces, but the difference between a moderately geared DPS and a perfectly geared DPS is much less than the same difference in AC builds. The reason being is that the guy who is 60 DPS behind can still fill basically the same role, and plays the same way in whatever content he's running, and will be the star any time he is the best geared character in that role, but that isn't how AC characters function. If you don't have enough AC to not get hit close to 95% of the time, no one wants anything to do with you. An undergeared barbarian or kensai can step into a difficult quest and perform adequately (and often without even being identified as undergeared), whereas undergeared AC tanks are relegated to secondary roles or have to avoid challenging content entirely until they acquire their equipment.

As far as ease of actually getting the stuff goes...there is a little less competition for the AC stuff, but there is a lot of gear that an AC tank needs, but that is in demand by everyone else as well (Abishai, red dragon armor, Claw gloves), and more that requires running old content (Chattering Ring, for example), which is often more tedious.

Defender Ftrs and Pal get a massive +20% hp this patch, while barbs get nerfed very slightly (-40 nerfed PL, +15 fixed PL = -25 net HP loss). Well built ones should match barbs hitpoints, and only be very slightly behind in DPS.

What? Slightly behind on DPS? That's definitely not even remotely true, unless you're counting DPS+threat here.

The HP boost is really nice. My paladin should be around 760 HP with these changes, which is more than I need in current content (we'll see how that stacks up in the new raids and such). If it continues to be more than I need, it will free up some AP, or maybe even a feat slot, as it may be enough to obviate the need for Toughness. That would be pretty awesome, but I doubt I'll go that far.

[Feithlin]

I won't enter into the trolling debate "only dps and HP count, ignore anything else".
The objective of making AC more viable in end game, without making it totally OP, is clearly needed to make the game something else than a simple (and boring) dps race.

The idea of sirgog is nice, but a bit complicated imo. What about introducing a simple mecanics like the Margin of success, which is used in almost all RPGs (pnp), including DD3.5 (in a lesser extent though)?

The Margin of success (MS) is the difference between the result of the successful test and the DC. For each point of MS, the monster would get a bonus of damage. This would make AC usefull, whatever the score (from 1 to 100+).

Example: Let's take a boss with +80 to-hit, and 50 base damage against both a simple minded barbarian (10 AC) and a middle class stalwart defender (75 AC). On a roll of 10, he would hit both, but would do 50 + 80 = 130 damage against the barbarian, and 50 + 15 = 65 against the defender.

A miss should stay a miss, but grazing hits could still apply.

In the proposition, I considered +1 damage / MS, but this could be changed for 1% / MS for example.
The system could also be applied to players, which would reduce a bit the gap between dex-based and str-based characters.

[Caseas]

I won't enter into the trolling debate "only dps and HP count, ignore anything else".
The objective of making AC more viable in end game, without making it totally OP, is clearly needed to make the game something else than a simple (and boring) dps race.

The idea of sirgog is nice, but a bit complicated imo. What about introducing a simple mecanics like the Margin of success, which is used in almost all RPGs (pnp), including DD3.5 (in a lesser extent though)?

The Margin of success (MS) is the difference between the result of the successful test and the DC. For each point of MS, the monster would get a bonus of damage. This would make AC usefull, whatever the score (from 1 to 100+).

Example: Let's take a boss with +80 to-hit, and 50 base damage against both a simple minded barbarian (10 AC) and a middle class stalwart defender (75 AC). On a roll of 10, he would hit both, but would do 50 + 80 = 130 damage against the barbarian, and 50 + 15 = 65 against the defender.

A miss should stay a miss, but grazing hits could still apply.

In the proposition, I considered +1 damage / MS, but this could be changed for 1% / MS for example.
The system could also be applied to players, which would reduce a bit the gap between dex-based and str-based characters.

Right on, interesting idea. I like

[Aesop]

The system could also be applied to players, which would reduce a bit the gap between dex-based and str-based characters.

I'm not seeing how this would reduce the gap between Dex and Strength based... Especially since Strength Based can get a higher strength than Dex based can get Dexterity. I've yet to hear of a Dex character breaching 50 while there are threads dedicated to getting Strength to 80 and higher

Aesop

[Samadhi]

Did....you just say let the rogue tank? ._.

My rogue can tank

[Aesop]

My rogue can tank

Are you using the definition of tank that involves failing utterly?

[Samadhi]

Are you using the definition of tank that involves failing utterly?

His AC becomes meaningless at certain Elite thresholds as happens with any other AC-based tank - but no not at all

[Feithlin]

I'm not seeing how this would reduce the gap between Dex and Strength based... Especially since Strength Based can get a higher strength than Dex based can get Dexterity. I've yet to hear of a Dex character breaching 50 while there are threads dedicated to getting Strength to 80 and higher

Aesop

A dex-based reaches a lower dex than str for a str-based because we count many buffs, among which some are unavailable or of very short duration: not everyone has yugo pots, not everyone has madstone boots (and it's only 1 clicky if you don't get aggro), not everyone has titan gloves and even for those who have them only have 3 short uses of 1 min (only 1 recovered from rest, exclusive item).
Eliminate all this, which is the case of at least 2/3 of the level 20 rogues, and dex can be pushed higher than str.

However, you're right that this would help average dex-based rogues. Well (or very well) geared str-based rogues will still get more from it.

[Aesop]

A dex-based reaches a lower dex than str for a str-based because we count many buffs, among which some are unavailable or of very short duration: not everyone has yugo pots, not everyone has madstone boots (and it's only 1 clicky if you don't get aggro), not everyone has titan gloves and even for those who have them only have 3 short uses of 1 min (only 1 recovered from rest, exclusive item).
Eliminate all this, which is the case of at least 2/3 of the level 20 rogues, and dex can be pushed higher than str.

However, you're right that this would help average dex-based rogues. Well (or very well) geared str-based rogues will still get more from it.

I had a big response... got bored.

here is the gist

The amount gained by a fully geared out Dex monkey would not be enough to counter act the benefits of the Moderate or Strength high builds. Weapon Finesse itself needs to be addressed in order to help Dex builds.

Additionally, I don't see how Sirgog's suggestion is complicated really. It just applies a random bonus to the attack roll, thus allowing for a wider range of AC to be valid.

Aesop

[Feithlin]

Additionally, I don't see how Sirgog's suggestion is complicated really. It just applies a random bonus to the attack roll, thus allowing for a wider range of AC to be valid.

Wider than 1 to any number?

[Aesop]

Wider than 1 to any number?

As in a wider range of AC... like instead of a 19 point variance you have 30-40 point variance. This would allow moderately geared characters to actually have decent mitigation through AC instead of how it is now.


Aesop

[Brannigan]

What a surprise to see this thread like all the other AC related threads that have come and come (many with good viable suggestions) being ignored by the Dev team...

[sirgog]

He has none. He wasted ages getting AC related gear and wants epic to be a joke for his AC related character.

Goes as far as to say its "easy" to build a proper DPS barb taht can tank on epic. Which is ludicrous.

Gear needed to get top DPS is FAR harder to get then top AC gear simply because the demand is so much higher.

Last time I checked the sirens ward set scrolls weren't selling for 30 red scales like the marilith chain.

DPS can be balanced against by simply upping hitpoints.
AC can't be balanced against. It's too limiting a system.

And I'm really tied of the "only barbairans can tank" utter nonsense. Currently the best tanks are by far favoured souls. They can get 800+ hitpoints, sustain incredible DPS for a long period of time, and have top saves and top surivival in the game period.
Same for clerics, tho they lack a bit in hitpoints and saves.
Bbns may be 3rd best tanks at best, and just barely.

Defender Ftrs and Pal get a massive +20% hp this patch, while barbs get nerfed very slightly (-40 nerfed PL, +15 fixed PL = -25 net HP loss). Well built ones should match barbs hitpoints, and only be very slightly behind in DPS.

So theres definetely a huge variety of strong epic tank classes.

Yea your 8 con, max dex/max wis 100 AC monk isn't one of them. Too bad reroll and play something less broken that possible to balance against.

They nerfed the grizz years ago, get used to it.

Uh - I haven't had an AC based toon since the level cap was 16. MyDDO 'Calcryx' if you want to see just how little effort I put into gearing them.

And I was the first person, AFAIK, to tank Horoth with a Favored Soul. Don't really do it any more, because AC tanks are just so much better at the job and you seldom have a group composition with enough divines to spare one as a tank.

The Devs implemented the Grazing Hit system precisely to keep degenerate ACs under control - and it works in the hardest raid in the game right now on Live. Zero-mitigation tanks are already a poor choice in ToD hard/elite, and next update they are totally dead there.

/signed on having the devs run some test fights with varying to-hit values.

How are you figuring 100+ AC as being semi-sustainable along with enough threat to have aggro, Numot?

Artificers add a bit of stacking AC, as do the U11 crafted shields (which let you fit +2 Exceptional Dex into a gearset). With that, in a stars-aligned situation high 90s might be possible in a somewhat stars-aligned raid group, on a Ftr defender than has a DoS paladin aura on them.

[Caseas]

Uh - I haven't had an AC based toon since the level cap was 16. MyDDO 'Calcryx' if you want to see just how little effort I put into gearing them.

And I was the first person, AFAIK, to tank Horoth with a Favored Soul. Don't really do it any more, because AC tanks are just so much better at the job and you seldom have a group composition with enough divines to spare one as a tank.

The Devs implemented the Grazing Hit system precisely to keep degenerate ACs under control - and it works in the hardest raid in the game right now on Live. Zero-mitigation tanks are already a poor choice in ToD hard/elite, and next update they are totally dead there.




Artificers add a bit of stacking AC, as do the U11 crafted shields (which let you fit +2 Exceptional Dex into a gearset). With that, in a stars-aligned situation high 90s might be possible in a somewhat stars-aligned raid group, on a Ftr defender than has a DoS paladin aura on them.

In my agreement with Sirgog, I still wonder to this very moment how things will have changed for my monk tank.

I find it almost offensive how ignorant people can be of my toon; however, I do it anyways. I can easily sustain over 750 hp, I have (I believe) the highest threat generation of anyone in the entire DDO world thanks to the obession enchant on the Beholder plate docent, standing at 290% threat. Enemy 50% miss chance thanks to incorp and cloudkill, which is equal to a good amount of AC.

Nothing on live has been a challenge for me to tank, yet. So I ponder if these changes, as much as I approve of making them shiny-played & shielded tanks more viable, will ruin all I've worked so far on my monk.

[phum]

In my agreement with Sirgog, I still wonder to this very moment how things will have changed for my monk tank.

I find it almost offensive how ignorant people can be of my toon; however, I do it anyways. I can easily sustain over 750 hp, I have (I believe) the highest threat generation of anyone in the entire DDO world thanks to the obession enchant on the Beholder plate docent, standing at 290% threat. Enemy 50% miss chance thanks to incorp and cloudkill, which is equal to a good amount of AC.

Nothing on live has been a challenge for me to tank, yet. So I ponder if these changes, as much as I approve of making them shiny-played & shielded tanks more viable, will ruin all I've worked so far on my monk.

High ac builds should remain very good regardless of the system. Many have also advocated that plate & shield builds should gain more mitigation in dr whereas pj builds generally just have a higher ac available. However, this is quite off topic as fixing the ac system should (imo) be done before any minor balancing like that. Really would be nice if a dev could comment on the thread if only to say: not feasible with our current skill/motivation/schedule/manpower/core design/etc

[noinfo]

In my agreement with Sirgog, I still wonder to this very moment how things will have changed for my monk tank.

I find it almost offensive how ignorant people can be of my toon; however, I do it anyways. I can easily sustain over 750 hp, I have (I believe) the highest threat generation of anyone in the entire DDO world thanks to the obession enchant on the Beholder plate docent, standing at 290% threat. Enemy 50% miss chance thanks to incorp and cloudkill, which is equal to a good amount of AC.

Nothing on live has been a challenge for me to tank, yet. So I ponder if these changes, as much as I approve of making them shiny-played & shielded tanks more viable, will ruin all I've worked so far on my monk.

25% incorp does not stack additively with 20% from cloud kill. You have good threat generation but your damage mitigation is good not really from those two features but from your improved evasion.
Sure I can tank horoth on my barb with 900 odd hp and 10% + 10% + 20% +30 % +30 % heal amp with the hate gen armour too but give me a good ac to take the job anyday because they have better ac and therefore better damage mitigation if they can hit that limit. In a pinch these sort of tanks are fine to thow out there to use but seriously just because people have achieved great hate generation does not make you a tank which many do not see. At least your build has very good damage mitigation and I would see it as being the best current tank type for eChrono which currently has no relevant AC use.

Edit: Basically if you are in a situation where AC actually works ie TOD elite, why would you expect to be tank over someone who can hit a high AC and other damage mitigation of shield mastery etc if they can maintain agro? You dumped your AC for meatbag tanks style with 25% from incorp. Don't get me wrong this can work in a pinch just like any barb (though imp evasion is very nice) but is hardly ideal anyway.

[Blackmoors]

I won't enter into the trolling debate "only dps and HP count, ignore anything else".
The objective of making AC more viable in end game, without making it totally OP, is clearly needed to make the game something else than a simple (and boring) dps race.

The idea of sirgog is nice, but a bit complicated imo. What about introducing a simple mecanics like the Margin of success, which is used in almost all RPGs (pnp), including DD3.5 (in a lesser extent though)?

The Margin of success (MS) is the difference between the result of the successful test and the DC. For each point of MS, the monster would get a bonus of damage. This would make AC usefull, whatever the score (from 1 to 100+).

Example: Let's take a boss with +80 to-hit, and 50 base damage against both a simple minded barbarian (10 AC) and a middle class stalwart defender (75 AC). On a roll of 10, he would hit both, but would do 50 + 80 = 130 damage against the barbarian, and 50 + 15 = 65 against the defender.

A miss should stay a miss, but grazing hits could still apply.

In the proposition, I considered +1 damage / MS, but this could be changed for 1% / MS for example.
The system could also be applied to players, which would reduce a bit the gap between dex-based and str-based characters.

Ive been a big defender of the "Margin of Success" to be implemented in DDO for awhile, it would solve almost all the AC problems - +1 to you sir!

[Dolphious]

So I guess no news is bad news in terms of any developer interest in increasing the randomness of attack rolls?