Eladrin - a request for an AC experiment on Lamannia

[Seager52]

HOLY ****...one of my rant posts got me positive rep!?!?!?!

Its a good day to die gentlmen...its a cold day in hell.../death

[grodon9999]

HOLY ****...one of my rant posts got me positive rep!?!?!?!

Its a good day to die gentlmen...its a cold day in hell.../death

As far as rants go it was quite elegant.

[wonkey]

The problem is if you up the mob ACs too much non-kensais can't hit anything.

That's my point, actually. That's why the devs can't balance monster AC vs our to-hit (I went over this in detail a while back, but I'm too lazy to find it now). 20 points from a d20 is not enough to work with.
That's why EXPANDING the attack die roll for us and them fixes the issue. If, for example, you use a d40 instead, you can raise the monster AC so that gimpy to-hits won't hit very much, uber to-hits will still hit on a 2, and everyone else will be somewhere in the middle. Boosting to-hit will be meaningful again.

[grodon9999]

That's my point, actually. That's why the devs can't balance monster AC vs our to-hit (I went over this in detail a while back, but I'm too lazy to find it now). 20 points from a d20 is not enough to work with.
That's why EXPANDING the attack die roll for us and them fixes the issue. If, for example, you use a d40 instead, you can raise the monster AC so that gimpy to-hits won't hit very much, uber to-hits will still hit on a 2, and everyone else will be somewhere in the middle. Boosting to-hit will be meaningful again.

We don't have hundreds of thousands of HP either, I don't think the same rules that work for the players should work for the AI.

[Cyr]

We don't have hundreds of thousands of HP either, I don't think the same rules that work for the players should work for the AI.

I think that unless there is a strong reason for things to work differently they should work the same. The AC change I proposed was for both players and mobs. It would also address the player side issue of hitting the 'magic number' making more to hit and mob ac debuffs useless.

In this case, there is little reason to think that a change on both sides of things would not be an improvement over the current horrible status quo.

[Tanlaus]

Part of the problem with the current system, which is reflected in monster AC and HP as well- in reference to the d20 not being big enough post above- are the insane stats players can achieve in DDO.

I genuinely don't think the system was designed with the idea that a melee can reach a 70 str or a caster can reach a similar number in their primary stat.

These numbers are so far and away outside of the way the d20 system was designed that balancing around them forces epic encounters into the DPS/heal format as a way to keep them challening to people who run around with insanely unbalanced toons.

[grodon9999]

I think that unless there is a strong reason for things to work differently they should work the same. The AC change I proposed was for both players and mobs. It would also address the player side issue of hitting the 'magic number' making more to hit and mob ac debuffs useless.

In this case, there is little reason to think that a change on both sides of things would not be an improvement over the current horrible status quo.

Don't get me wrong, i don't mind a mob being hard to hit as long as it makes sense. An ogre in a loin-clothe? Come on . . .

What do you have in mind for bosses? keep in mind with flanking bonuses, ID, Exhaustion, Sunder, we're gonna hit them on a 2 anyway unless the ACs are raised to such a stupid high level that it knocks anything that isn't a Kensai out of the running.

We also have to grind the **** for the gear to get our to-hits high enough, a capped 20 with no gear isn't going to hit everything on a 2, he might be hitting that bigtop wench on a 14. if your'e gonna make it so we have to wear Raven's sight, Gem of many facets, Epic Spectral gloves, and a bard to hit stuff reliably you've just knocked anyone who doesn't have that stuff back to the Inspired Quarter.

In PnP back in the day hitting and opponent was a much bigger deal as it is here, but they had the same HP as you and same damage-avoidance abilities. a 1000 HP tank versus a 500,000 HP boss . . . I don't think you can compare the two at all.

[Cyr]

Don't get me wrong, i don't mind a mob being hard to hit as long as it makes sense. An ogre in a loin-clothe? Come on . . .

What do you have in mind for bosses? keep in mind with flanking bonuses, ID, Exhaustion, Sunder, we're gonna hit them on a 2 anyway unless the ACs are raised to such a stupid high level that it knocks anything that isn't a Kensai out of the running.

We also have to grind the **** for the gear to get our to-hits high enough, a capped 20 with no gear isn't going to hit everything on a 2, he might be hitting that bigtop wench on a 14. if your'e gonna make it so we have to wear Raven's sight, Gem of many facets, Epic Spectral gloves, and a bard to hit stuff reliably you've just knocked anyone who doesn't have that stuff back to the Inspired Quarter.

In PnP back in the day hitting and opponent was a much bigger deal as it is here, but they had the same HP as you and same damage-avoidance abilities. a 1000 HP tank versus a 500,000 HP boss . . . I don't think you can compare the two at all.

I have in mind for bosses exactly the same thing as I have in mind for players. It's the same mechanic. In other words every point you debuff a mobs AC or increase your to hit you will increase your percentage of hits. There would be no static get mob to X 'magic number' and then there is exactly a 5% miss chance that never goes down.

[grodon9999]

I have in mind for bosses exactly the same thing as I have in mind for players. It's the same mechanic. In other words every point you debuff a mobs AC or increase your to hit you will increase your percentage of hits. There would be no static get mob to X 'magic number' and then there is exactly a 5% miss chance that never goes down.

Details, I dont' get what your saying. Take 20 off my to-hit and add a 2-40 variable instead of 1-20?

[Seager52]

The solution is give barbarians better armor and get rid of fighters. The below is just some test art.

[ckorik]

I have in mind for bosses exactly the same thing as I have in mind for players. It's the same mechanic. In other words every point you debuff a mobs AC or increase your to hit you will increase your percentage of hits. There would be no static get mob to X 'magic number' and then there is exactly a 5% miss chance that never goes down.

The problem is the rules the entire system is based on assume your attack bonus goes *down* on a full attack.

Monster AC is supposed to be balanced so that a 3/4 BA class can hit the thing around 50% of the time. Monster attack is usually a single attack at the highest modifier - and full attack options usually are low enough that the monster is pretty sure to get the first hit - and have a good shot at missing a medium armor class on the further attacks.

Then again it's rare to see AC values so high anywhere in PnP - horned devils have what ... a 25 attack value? That would mean you are expecting your 'AC focused' characters at level 16 to have 35ish AC. Instead what we have is a horned devil with +75 attack and AC values that can get over 100.

Our system in game is already kludged - which is why they should just bite the bullet and come up with an alternative that works for AC toons, instead of what we have now.

[phum]

Thought I'd post this here as the original post is a few pages back.

1. d3
If the result of the d3 is
1 - mob rolls to hit + d40
2 - mob rolls to hit + roundup(20*(cr/maxcr)) + d20
3 - mob rolls to hit + roundup(20*(cr/maxcr)) + d40

Assuming max cr, and mob to hit 60 results in ac 61-80 each point giving 0.833%, ac 81-100 each point giving 3.333% and ac 101-120 again each point giving 0.833% damage mitigation. The thresholds are 16.667% at ac 80, 83.333% at ac 100 and 95% at ac 114 and above if critical is highest 5%.

As is, my suggestion for critical would be the same as it's now, the highest 5%. Meaning if the range is 60 points, critical occurs at 58, 59 and 60. If it's 40, then critical occurs at 39 and 40. As for glancing hits, again the upper third (highest 33%) seems ok. Similar to what is now.

[sephiroth1084]

/signed on having the devs run some test fights with varying to-hit values.

How are you figuring 100+ AC as being semi-sustainable along with enough threat to have aggro, Numot?

[Cyr]

Details, I dont' get what your saying. Take 20 off my to-hit and add a 2-40 variable instead of 1-20?

It's the same thing I was discussing in this thread or another one with you earlier in the week.

Delink to hits from the d20 system (great for pnp, but totally silly for a computer game) by making it instead a statistical roll on a bell curve with it's center = to hit + 10. From the hitting a mobs AC perspective this would mean that anytime you rolled to hit you could roll to hit anywhere from 0 to infinity (or a practical infinite in DDO terms of +250 lets say) and each point by which you decreased the difference between (your to hit + 10) and the mob AC until your to hit +10 was greater then the mobs AC you would gain a greater and greater chance of hitting the mob per point of increased to hit/decreased mob AC. After that crossover point you would still hit the mob more and more often for each point you increased your to hit/decreased mob AC, but instead of each point giving you an even greater percentage then the last it would give you a little less.

Basically you get more benefit per point of improvement until a certain to hit to AC threshold and then after that you still improve, but to a lesser and lesser degree...

Some numerical 'samples' that demonstrate the concept, but the percentages and crossover points could be varied depending upon how Turbine wants to balance things...note this is also not a proper bell curve, but mostly a demonstration of the basic concepts here...

Your To Hit +10 - Mob AC VS. Chance to hit
-40 2%
-30 5%
-20 15%
-10 30%
0 70%
10 85%
20 90%
30 93%

[Riggs]

Well, everything is easier to tank with AC out of epics, why epics shouldnt be the same?

Everything is easier with instakills outside epics, why epics shouldnt be the same?

Everything is easier with DPS outside epics, why epics shouldnt be the same?

You see, mechanics like AC, DPS, Insta Kills are part of the game as a whole. Why should they be excluded in end game?

Crippling mechanics to fit new content is the best indicator of poor planing/thinking.

+1

Epic should be harder than elite - but if dps matters in epics - AC should to, just less than on elite.

But less should not mean zero usefulness.

A barb requires at worst a few items. A big weapon and hp items.

An AC build requires 10x the planning and gear and slot juggling - so in fact they should be BETTER than a straight up dps barb at surviving high level content - because AC is harder to get.

The game is broken, and not everyone wants a 'barb tank and healers' raid setup as has been the trend for quite some time now. 'Hit points and dps, dont care about tactics or any other builds'.

+1 to trying to make AC useful but not overpowering on epics.

[Riggs]

Don't get me wrong, i don't mind a mob being hard to hit as long as it makes sense. An ogre in a loin-clothe? Come on . . .

What do you have in mind for bosses? keep in mind with flanking bonuses, ID, Exhaustion, Sunder, we're gonna hit them on a 2 anyway unless the ACs are raised to such a stupid high level that it knocks anything that isn't a Kensai out of the running.

We also have to grind the **** for the gear to get our to-hits high enough, a capped 20 with no gear isn't going to hit everything on a 2, he might be hitting that bigtop wench on a 14. if your'e gonna make it so we have to wear Raven's sight, Gem of many facets, Epic Spectral gloves, and a bard to hit stuff reliably you've just knocked anyone who doesn't have that stuff back to the Inspired Quarter.

In PnP back in the day hitting and opponent was a much bigger deal as it is here, but they had the same HP as you and same damage-avoidance abilities. a 1000 HP tank versus a 500,000 HP boss . . . I don't think you can compare the two at all.

Exactly.

High level pnp players were meant to be 'epic'. Not 'dead in 2 seconds meatbags'.

Sure MMO play is different - but monster stats vs player stats are already absurd, trying to 'make players and monsters use equal to hit' is silly.

Unless I get unlimited mana and even just 50k hp too - comparing the two equally is completely illogical.

[noinfo]

+1

Epic should be harder than elite - but if dps matters in epics - AC should to, just less than on elite.

But less should not mean zero usefulness.

A barb requires at worst a few items. A big weapon and hp items.

An AC build requires 10x the planning and gear and slot juggling - so in fact they should be BETTER than a straight up dps barb at surviving high level content - because AC is harder to get.

The game is broken, and not everyone wants a 'barb tank and healers' raid setup as has been the trend for quite some time now. 'Hit points and dps, dont care about tactics or any other builds'.

+1 to trying to make AC useful but not overpowering on epics.

What is your justification here? Less on elite or epic? Why? Does dps matter on elite or epic? Do you think that an AC toon will be dominating an epic quest? What if 6 high ac toons ran though an epic quest without healer or caster etc? Does it matter? How much longer would it take them even if they could? Ac should be as relevant at all difficulties.

Edit: should dps be less relevant at different levels?

[noinfo]

If they do end up testing different to hits then they need to be looking at alternatives to grazing as well. 45% of incoming damage even on a miss is garbage.

If they insist on inflicting ac with this sort of stuff its no wonder so few even bother trying. Grazing was the turing point in the death of AC.

If they must continue with this artificial means then:

Normal no graz
Hard on 19
Elite on 18
Epic on 17

Simple straight forward progression considering that monster to hit and damage is scaled already in those cases (though I don't believe they should be in game anyway).

15% on elite is a reasonalbe compremise to the garbage of 45% we get now.

That and combine with the iterative attack modifier by AD though perhaps scalling it further and we have a reasonable comprimise.

[Shade]

What is your justification here?

He has none. He wasted ages getting AC related gear and wants epic to be a joke for his AC related character.

Goes as far as to say its "easy" to build a proper DPS barb taht can tank on epic. Which is ludicrous.

Gear needed to get top DPS is FAR harder to get then top AC gear simply because the demand is so much higher.

Last time I checked the sirens ward set scrolls weren't selling for 30 red scales like the marilith chain.

DPS can be balanced against by simply upping hitpoints.
AC can't be balanced against. It's too limiting a system.

And I'm really tied of the "only barbairans can tank" utter nonsense. Currently the best tanks are by far favoured souls. They can get 800+ hitpoints, sustain incredible DPS for a long period of time, and have top saves and top surivival in the game period.
Same for clerics, tho they lack a bit in hitpoints and saves.
Bbns may be 3rd best tanks at best, and just barely.

Defender Ftrs and Pal get a massive +20% hp this patch, while barbs get nerfed very slightly (-40 nerfed PL, +15 fixed PL = -25 net HP loss). Well built ones should match barbs hitpoints, and only be very slightly behind in DPS.

So theres definetely a huge variety of strong epic tank classes.

Yea your 8 con, max dex/max wis 100 AC monk isn't one of them. Too bad reroll and play something less broken that possible to balance against.

They nerfed the grizz years ago, get used to it.

[noinfo]

He has none. He wasted ages getting AC related gear and wants epic to be a joke for his AC related character.

Goes as far as to say its "easy" to build a proper DPS barb taht can tank on epic. Which is ludicrous.

Gear needed to get top DPS is FAR harder to get then top AC gear simply because the demand is so much higher.

Last time I checked the sirens ward set scrolls weren't selling for 30 red scales like the marilith chain.

DPS can be balanced against by simply upping hitpoints.
AC can't be balanced against. It's too limiting a system.

And I'm really tied of the "only barbairans can tank" utter nonsense. Currently the best tanks are by far favoured souls. They can get 800+ hitpoints, sustain incredible DPS for a long period of time, and have top saves and top surivival in the game period.
Same for clerics, tho they lack a bit in hitpoints and saves.
Bbns may be 3rd best tanks at best, and just barely.

Defender Ftrs and Pal get a massive +20% hp this patch, while barbs get nerfed very slightly (-40 nerfed PL, +15 fixed PL = -25 net HP loss). Well built ones should match barbs hitpoints, and only be very slightly behind in DPS.

So theres definetely a huge variety of strong epic tank classes.

Yea your 8 con, max dex/max wis 100 AC monk isn't one of them. Too bad reroll and play something less broken that possible to balance against.

They nerfed the grizz years ago, get used to it.

LOL sorry shade, I guess you missed the part where I agreed that AC should be completely relevant in Epics not just less than elite.

Seriously why should you or I care if he has a 100 AC 8 con str monk? You know already in epics that
A. They are probably not going to hit.
B. When they hit they will do 0 damage
C. Even if they get hit on a 20 that will be a significant part of their hp they have to heal anyway.
D. Even if they could solo it would take them a Week to do it.

But if they enjoy that build who are you or I to say its wrong and should not rate?

As for gearing an AC toon he has it spot on, they are harder to gear. Epic maralith chanin is probably the only piece of dps gear that will take longer and in some cases (not all) the same as chattering ring for ac melee.

Yes there is more competition but when you talk about paying 20+ reds for a scroll to get the resources for that is not overly difficult once you decide that is what you want to get.

This difference becomes noticiable when you compare an average geared ac build to a average geared dps. To get your final gear set up probably takes the same amount of time however, since I would assume that final gear set up on all would be epic gear [edit: it is on my ac and dps toons]. The difference is that in top level content the dps gear in there matters more and this is wrong.