Eladrin - a request for an AC experiment on Lamannia

[Aelonwy]

More damage = more pots sold...

That feels incredibly cynical. I hope it doesn't approach truth.

[smatt]

That feels incredibly cynical. I hope it doesn't approach truth.

LOL, business IS business......

[sirgog]

That feels incredibly cynical. I hope it doesn't approach truth.

More damage = more mana potions required if, and only if, your approach to the raid is to brute force it.

Most mana potion usage by healers isn't required by the encounters, it's caused by players taking unnecessary damage. Want to see this in action? Take a group into VOD, and have noone communicate at all. Mana potions will be needed even on Normal, regardless of gear level, because of players taking easily avoided damage - getting hit by Suulo when not tanking, having three Orthons or four Barbazu cleave an area where six players are standing, or whatever.

If the group plays smarter, and makes sure that at most one person is being hit at any given time by each mob - a Radiant Servant aura should be fine for everything except healing the Suulo tank and the period of the fire bats.

[wonkey]

For tanking.... AC targets (and changes to monsters' attack rolls) in this thread are all about BOSSES, not trash beating. If there were no grazes a tank with an AC build would be nearly invulnerable to damage...

I'm only going to speak for my suggestion (expand die) and similar suggestions, and not others mentioned. But it works for bosses, trash, whatever, simply because useful AC values have more range.

with the example of 2d20 to attack, you have, essentially, a 40 point range of AC variation.
If bosses have 20 more to-hit than a trash mob, and hit for 30 out of that 40 point die range, then the trash will still hit 10 out of 40. 25% with 100% damage is actually quite a bit more than 30% at 45% damage. Of course, that's less relevant because I pulled the numbers out of thin air, but I think you see the point.

[Brannigan]

Have faith young Skywalker . . . it still would be nice to have some dialogue about this.

I'm still right, you will see no Dev comments around this in this or any other thread about AC or shields - they do not want to know. :P

I have seen many many threads like this one the subject with lots of really good suggestions and simple fixes and all of them despite hundreds of posts get no dev input

Sad but true.

[grodon9999]

More damage = more mana potions required if, and only if, your approach to the raid is to brute force it.

Most mana potion usage by healers isn't required by the encounters, it's caused by players taking unnecessary damage. Want to see this in action? Take a group into VOD, and have noone communicate at all. Mana potions will be needed even on Normal, regardless of gear level, because of players taking easily avoided damage - getting hit by Suulo when not tanking, having three Orthons or four Barbazu cleave an area where six players are standing, or whatever.

If the group plays smarter, and makes sure that at most one person is being hit at any given time by each mob - a Radiant Servant aura should be fine for everything except healing the Suulo tank and the period of the fire bats.

Some people just have garbage SP-conservation skills to.

Big pet-peeve of mine are healers who don't use scrolls. You should use a scroll whenever physically possible, do this and you will almost never run out of SP.

I get really annoyed when in a VoD pug, a tank who gets doesn't take that much damage, gets hit with an 800 point heal every time he gets a scratch, and then the cleric wonders why they ran out of SP . . .

[grodon9999]

I'm still right, you will see no Dev comments around this in this or any other thread about AC or shields - they do not want to know. :P

I have seen many many threads like this one the subject with lots of really good suggestions and simple fixes and all of them despite hundreds of posts get no dev input

Sad but true.

i don't think we'll see any dev commentary but we still need to constantly press this. i think the overwhelming positive response to this idea and "make AC useful in epics" in general shows how much the community wants this.

The Defender PREs are pointless if damage mitigation via AC doesn't work. Turbine has to know this (if not we keep reminding them) and I see this getting changed even if it's slowly.

Plus to prevent people from getting too bored we need more viable ideas for toon builds. have you seen all the defender build threads lately regarding gearing and all that stuff? Lot's of fun ideas there and it's deeper to build than the max-dps ape. Max-dps is boring and is pretty much a linear path, this gives us more depth.

[MrkGrismer]

While I would really like to see straight AC become useful again, it may simply be a better (and easier) idea to increase DR, perhaps double or triple it versus 'grazing hits/glancing blows'. Perhaps including enhancements for shields that increase DR by a percent (and an even greater percent when blocking). And maybe, just maybe, having a 'top tier' enhancement that 'bounces back' damage on an opponent when shield-blocking (or blocking in general if the character has two weapon defense, which is probably not otherwise very useful).

[Brannigan]

i don't think we'll see any dev commentary but we still need to constantly press this. i think the overwhelming positive response to this idea and "make AC useful in epics" in general shows how much the community wants this.

The Defender PREs are pointless if damage mitigation via AC doesn't work. Turbine has to know this (if not we keep reminding them) and I see this getting changed even if it's slowly.

Plus to prevent people from getting too bored we need more viable ideas for toon builds. have you seen all the defender build threads lately regarding gearing and all that stuff? Lot's of fun ideas there and it's deeper to build than the max-dps ape. Max-dps is boring and is pretty much a linear path, this gives us more depth.

I can understand the pressing part and to be honest there have been some great and even very simple ideas that they could implement, I just find it that with so many different people wanting some changes that not a single Dev will step in to discuss ideas on this very popular subject with the players.

We have seen interaction about PL feats for barb, even Epic item overhauls that have been guided directly from player input, however as someone pointed out less healing = less pots = less money and call be a synical but thats how it appears.

[smatt]

i don't think we'll see any dev commentary but we still need to constantly press this. i think the overwhelming positive response to this idea and "make AC useful in epics" in general shows how much the community wants this.

The Defender PREs are pointless if damage mitigation via AC doesn't work. Turbine has to know this (if not we keep reminding them) and I see this getting changed even if it's slowly.

Plus to prevent people from getting too bored we need more viable ideas for toon builds. have you seen all the defender build threads lately regarding gearing and all that stuff? Lot's of fun ideas there and it's deeper to build than the max-dps ape. Max-dps is boring and is pretty much a linear path, this gives us more depth.

Yeep... That's why I've periodically said that within DDO..... They've for as long as I've played completely ignored about 3/4 of the game variability by pigeon holing everyone into this particular neccecity or that one..... They have most certainly made big moves to make more skill/spells/abilities useful over the past year... But AC has been left by the wayside up to this point. But even back in late 06 when I started I noticed a large portion of the enhancements/skills/spells/equipment was completely useless to EVERYBODY.

Right now though, we can count on the Devs being pretty much totally consumed with the Artificer.... And then of course whatever it is the next Mod(s) are playing out to be.... So I doubt any kind of major commentary or actions from then will play out on this front for a while.

[Riggs]

Honestly I think grazing hits are needed. DDO allows lots of forms of stacking of stats in degenerate ways. Grazing Hits keep builds that stack AC to the max in check somewhat.

You don't notice them at all unless you have an insanely high AC, and you can mitigate them somewhat with DR. But really, they are there to compensate for monsters being too stupid to hit us with Destruction and Improved Destruction weapons, to Sunder us, and to hit us with Exhaustion, Strength Sapping, Acid Fog and maybe even Sundering Ooze - exactly the things we do as players to Malicia.

Other effects could keep degenerate builds under control too - absolute time limits on fights that force players to have a minimum level of DPS (keeps all-out defensive builds, like Shield Mastery WF sorcs with max Con and dumped Cha from soloing things like eChrono), and so on.

Basically, I feel 80% physical damage mitigation isn't gamebreaking, but 95% is. Without grazing hits, raid bosses that focus on melee would need to hit for 300+ to pose a challenge at all to AC builds.

In keeping with the idea of more to hit = more damage, less to hit should = less damage.

Grazing hits that had a sliding scale of damage done i.e. miss by 1, do 50% damage, miss by 5 do 40% damage, miss by 10 to 30% damage, maybe miss by 15-20 do 20% damage etc.

AC would still reduced damage without being immune to attacks.

Currently the 'hit on a 13 no matter if your ac is 500' thing is just silly and punishing for no logical reason.

It was the rise of ac before and the "We dont want players to run around not taking damage, so we are going to completely change the rule system to make it impossible to NOT take damage constantly" thought pattern that brought on a new wave of ac nurfs and monster buffs and more damage from non-weapon sources.

Adding in monk wisdom ac, along with Icy Raiments, plus +4 insight for everyone jacked AC up all over. Which could have been avoided by making less AC gear, and limiting monk wisdom AC to a max of 1/level - so an 18/2 build would not have +10 ac for example. Less AC = less need for nurfs and less need for monster buffs to insane levels.

The problem with the game was Turbine abandoned balance long ago, and started adding in too many stacking to hit bonuses, too many stacking AC bonuses, too many stacking str bonuses, and then made monsters far far more powerful than they should have been, making players need more and more dps and healing to make up for the constant power creep.

[Drfirewater79]

[quote=sirgog;4023032]
Plausible, sustainable/semi-sustainable ACs for a threat tank with 400+ threat per second:

70 AC - 5.7% mitigation
75 - 8.575%
80 - 15.05%
85 - 26.07%
90 - 40.6%
93 - 49.75%
95 - 55.61%
97 - 61.1%
100 - 68.3%

and more degenerate ACs (not currently sustainable on any character that's likely to be able to hold aggro)
105 - 76.7%
108 - 79.64%
110 - 80.92%
120 or anything higher - 82.75%

quote]


I love this idea but i dont like the ac range for it ...

the range should start at 60 ac... at 5% gaining a single % for every 2 points of ac

this would be

60ac = 5%
65ac= 6%
70ac = 10%
80ac= 20%
90ac=30%
100ac+(capping mitigation) = 40%

its extremely hard to get 100+ ac for more then 30 seconds there are very many AC builds which have a hard time getting to 80 and 90 without store pots and what not.

I have a very well geared fighter who was SD standing with a 88 ac ... and he is the second character i ever made has more gear then anyone else i have (currently frenzied Kensai with evasion cause ac is worthless )

My dex build monk can hit mid 80's only if i gimp him out by removing my TOD rings lowing my dps by a considerable amount (especially since i am not a str build so my dps is already low enough) usually stand at about 75 if i self buff and dont remove my TOD rings for my chattering ring.

with my proposal .. we never see anyone hit more then 40% midigation (cause that would be just too easy if you can umd heal scrolls and have a decent DR you will be untouchable with a 90ac or higher with your scale) it will allow even medium useful ac toons to get a small taste for it (making it grow in popularity and have people paying $$$ in ddo store for lesser reincarnations constantly to try to balance there dps and there ac for mitigation purposes) give sword and boarders a reason to exist in this game and allow good builds with decent gear to be able to hold a candle to the elitist snobs and rich folk who can afford to spend 50$ a month in the store on pots.

balance is more important then elitism ... At least according to Turbine ....

i think if they did it the way i suggest it would still give all the advantages you suggest but in a more balance range.

also i would add that wearing a shield should double threat and that Defender builds should get a enchancement line that extends the duration of intimidate (and intimidate should remove EVERYONES HATE except the intimidater who gets 100% bonus to threat for the duration of the intimidate)

this would allow ac tanks to be TANKS like they are suppost to be in DnD ... and allow people to continue the way we have been going (hp tanks) if they want to however knowing that a palidan can tank just as well with half the hps and half the dps of a barbarian because of ac and intimidate.

this would also open up the idea of monk ac tanks as well .. assuming they can find a way to raise there intimidate high enough to hold the bosses against the dps.

[Drfirewater79]

Some people just have garbage SP-conservation skills to.

Big pet-peeve of mine are healers who don't use scrolls. You should use a scroll whenever physically possible, do this and you will almost never run out of SP.

I get really annoyed when in a VoD pug, a tank who gets doesn't take that much damage, gets hit with an 800 point heal every time he gets a scratch, and then the cleric wonders why they ran out of SP . . .

I agree completely ... i am a bad healer on my healer (i dont pay enough attention and easily distracted) so i over heal alot .. but funny enough I never have to drink more then 1 pot in hard VOD when there are two of us ... raident servant blasts and scrolls do more then 50% of the healing until bats then its mass mod and critical till the end ....

and i dont even keep quicken on.

heal scrolls and mass cure scrolls are really useful .. but people are lazy and would rather chomp down 10 store pots and 5 regular pots then blame the party because they didnt want to use scrolls and chomped down pots. Seen it happen many times where we go into a VOD hard and the healers are out of mana before the second wave of orthons ... wipe ... then drop the healers and get one good healer from my friends list and clean it easy on hard with one or two pots used max.

its all about learning how to play your class efficiently ... but its harder to do then it is to say for sure.

[grodon9999]

. . .<snip>

Whaever formula is used, I'd like to see a 50% miss at 85 for Epic bosses. Leaving in grazes and it's fine.

[Drfirewater79]

Whaever formula is used, I'd like to see a 50% miss at 85 for Epic bosses. Leaving in grazes and it's fine.

I wouldnt be against 50% but i am completely against anything more then that ... 50% is alot especially when your talking Horroth and lord of blades.

on normal horroth can hit between 300 and 400 a hit ... i havent had to tank lord of blades yet .. but i saw a 800 hp tank get taken out in one hit on normal (on first day ... i hear things have changed since then) now 50% would mean a mob that hits 400 would be doing 200 points of damage .. and that is exceptable for a ac tank for sure ...

a mob that does 400 vs a player who has 70% is takign 120 poitns of damage ... that is retardedly OP. People will be soloing epics with the right palidan build or cleric monk splash or ranger monk splash. And i dont think that soloing epics should be made easier for elitists ... Its already too easy for casters to solo epics (fortunately its really hard for a caster to get a 60+ ac unless its a cleric or FVS monk splash)

[smatt]

Whaever formula is used, I'd like to see a 50% miss at 85 for Epic bosses. Leaving in grazes and it's fine.

And of course what YOU think is the measure they should use

[grodon9999]

And of course what YOU think is the measure they should use

Yes, I knew you'd come around eventually.

[grodon9999]

a mob that does 400 vs a player who has 70% is takign 120 poitns of damage ... that is retardedly OP. People will be soloing epics with the right palidan build or cleric monk splash or ranger monk splash. And i dont think that soloing epics should be made easier for elitists ... Its already too easy for casters to solo epics (fortunately its really hard for a caster to get a 60+ ac unless its a cleric or FVS monk splash)

Philosophically speaking . . . why is it okay that casters can blow through epic trash yet AC toons cannot? Why is one okay yet the other is over-powered?

Even if you could it still wouldn't be an efficient way to farm.

[sephiroth1084]

I wouldnt be against 50% but i am completely against anything more then that ... 50% is alot especially when your talking Horroth and lord of blades.

on normal horroth can hit between 300 and 400 a hit ... i havent had to tank lord of blades yet .. but i saw a 800 hp tank get taken out in one hit on normal (on first day ... i hear things have changed since then) now 50% would mean a mob that hits 400 would be doing 200 points of damage .. and that is exceptable for a ac tank for sure ...

a mob that does 400 vs a player who has 70% is takign 120 poitns of damage ... that is retardedly OP. People will be soloing epics with the right palidan build or cleric monk splash or ranger monk splash. And i dont think that soloing epics should be made easier for elitists ... Its already too easy for casters to solo epics (fortunately its really hard for a caster to get a 60+ ac unless its a cleric or FVS monk splash)

Philosophically speaking . . . why is it okay that casters can blow through epic trash yet AC toons cannot? Why is one okay yet the other is over-powered?

Even if you could it still wouldn't be an efficient way to farm.

This is something I think the devs have ignored to a degree. There's a real disconnect between how characters of one role function compared to those of another.

Take epic trash fights, for example. Why is their to-hit so high? They aren't representative of a tanking situation and, especially now that intimidate has been changed, aren't at risk of being wholly negated by a high AC tank. Grazing hits are still an issue, especially if you're getting hammered on by several enemies at once, and it's very difficult to control that sort of group in anything by the most efficiently-run party, and solo, the experience is going to be both slow and difficult, even with 95% miss AC, as grazes, 20s and spells will still account for quite a lot of damage. Meanwhile, casters had been blitzing through epic quests solo before epic monsters lost half of their HP and became susceptible to death effects.

So how is having unhittable (a fallacy) AC overpowered in such a situation?

Okay, so that's trash. How about vs. bosses? No doubt that unhittable AC can be problematic in those situations, as it can make rather challenging encounters considerably easier, but so can a Shadow Faded monk standing in a Cloudkill. So can kiting a boss around while laying it low with persistent spells. The AC tank is still taking a fair amount of damage from grazing hits, 20s and spells. There is still a very fine point of balance that must be achieved amongst AC, DPS, hate, HP and saves to make those challenging encounters feel easy.

Horoth is quite a bit easier when an AC tank is taking care of, but risk isn't removed; AC tanks still die in there, more often, maybe, than barbarians do, although the barbarian runs tend to require more resources from the party. Also, even knowing how much easier the Horoth fight can be with AC tanks, we don't see hordes of such characters being created and pushed up through the levels. Raids aren't becoming the domain of defenders, are they?

So why the continued resistance to developing the game to be accessible to such characters? There is absolutely no reason for epic to-hit to remain (to have remained!) to ridiculously high! Epic HP was dropped. Epic immunities were dropped. And those affect much greater portions of the populace, and result in much faster and easier epic completions than would reducing their attack bonuses. This is long past due! We got grazing hits, at least in part, to balance encounters against high AC players, let's actually use that system!

[Thrudh]

Philosophically speaking . . . why is it okay that casters can blow through epic trash yet AC toons cannot? Why is one okay yet the other is over-powered?

This.

Why do any of you care if AC characters can solo anything? Wizards, sorcs, FvS, and clerics do it today.