Eladrin - a request for an AC experiment on Lamannia

[NytCrawlr]

A lot of well thought out ideas.

Count me as agreeing to this and wishing to see it done.

[grodon9999]

Furthermore, I cant understand the "fear" of high AC tanks. When your focusing yourself on getting a high AC, theres something your loosing, more seldom than not DPS being the case. So, although having (very high) AC working on epics will or would be really nice, its something that more likely than not will only shine in 5% of the quests, the rest your better of with a DPS tank.

AC needs to work, it doesnt make no sense that a Barbarian using robes is better at tanking a Large Devil than a Heavy Plated Fighter using a Tower Shield. Its funny seeing people that boast about the 1000 HP builds are the same ones scared of what the 90 AC build can do to the game...

People are protective of their "niche," and I don't blame them even if I disagree with their philosophies as to what this game should be. Barbarians were effective, arguably the best, tanks for so much content for so long that I can understand them getting a little annoyed if they're relegated to hitting a boss in the back. The changes to the Elite Devil raids makes meat-bag tanking almost impossible now (going from reports, haven't run them on lamaland).

I'm not sure I like that, even if it's not my cup of tea I don't see the need to **** in somebody else's kettle. Though my stalwart was always a threat-tank, I didn't like the U9 intim changes than made turtle-tanks useless. I'm don't like the ubbber-increased damage output that makes meat-bag tanks un-desirable either.

I don't like options being taken off the table. What I like about this game is that you don't need a perfect group for anything, that might not be the case much longer.

[Darkrok]

Let me do a good TL;DR for this.

AC being meaningless is not fun.
Being immune to all hits except on a 20 is (in the long run) not fun (at least on content that's supposed to be challenging).

I'd love to see an even larger range of meaningful AC's starting around 30 or so. Give people a reason to skip on the pajamas if they're not playing up a dex bonus. Notice I said a meaningful AC - not a particularly strong effect...just that it means something. Make it so that on the hardest content even ac's in the 30's do something (though again...very little) while there isn't a possible way to get AC's that create hit on a 20 only situations. How they do this is up to them...they could even make AC also provide passive percent-based DR. I don't really care. I would just like to see a more robust combat system that had a damage mitigation technique outside of the DR rules we currently have.

[joaofalcao]

AC is not intended to work on epic bosses because it would be far too easy to tank if they did.

Well, everything is easier to tank with AC out of epics, why epics shouldnt be the same?

Everything is easier with instakills outside epics, why epics shouldnt be the same?

Everything is easier with DPS outside epics, why epics shouldnt be the same?

You see, mechanics like AC, DPS, Insta Kills are part of the game as a whole. Why should they be excluded in end game?

Crippling mechanics to fit new content is the best indicator of poor planing/thinking.

[Astraghal]

Your estimate is a little off, a stalwart in DPS mode is only 10-15% behind a kensai. This is assuming equal gear, Weapon Specilizations, etc. The Kensai will have more boosts though.

In full-defense mode the DPS will drop but I have a feel Turbine doesn't want "DPS" toons to be able to survive tanking.

You will probably need to go full defence in Epics to make AC work. I doubt even ~80 unbuffed AC would help much. The only way I can see AC working in Epics is if the tank just goes for all out AC and Intimidate and be a sort of substitute crowd controller but he would still get beaten up pretty bad.

[Aelonwy]

This has been bouncing around in my head for a while, so I figured I'd go ahead and post it for the devs to do with as they will.

Armor and types were terribly designed in 3.X. Weapon types weren't perfect either, but when you have multiple, multiplicative relevant factors balancing weapons (base damage, crit range, crit multiplier, etc.), that's a little more complicated and understandable.

Armor types have only two relevant differentiating factors: armor class and max dex bonus. (Armor Check Penalty and Arcane Spell Failure are non-factors; any character that cares about either of them will choose armor with ACP or ASF of zero, respectively.)

If you take a look at all of the armor types, you'll see that there is little rhyme or reason to these numbers outside of, perhaps, historical accuracy or personal opinion/preference.

Heavy
Full Plate: AC 8 + MD 1 = 9
Half Plate: AC 7 + MD 0 = 7
Banded Mail: AC 6 + MD 1 = 7
Splint Mail: AC 6 + MD 0 = 6

Medium
Chainmail: AC 5 + MD 2 = 7
Brigandine: AC 5 + MD 3 = 8
Breastplate: AC 5 + MD 3 = 8
Scale Mail: AC 4 + MD 3 = 7
Hide Armor: AC 3 + MD 4 = 7

Light
Chain Shirt: AC 4 + MD 4 = 8
Studded Leather: AC 3 + MD 5 = 8
Leather Armor: AC 2 + MD 6 = 8
Padded Armor: AC 1 + MD 8 = 9

The end result is that there are clear “bests” in armor types. (Weapons have the same issue, but are not nearly as easily fixed.) Full plate is the only reasonable choice among heavy armors, light armor is potentially as good as heavy and better than medium, and mithril full plate is far and away the best armor in the game.

Therefore, I recommend a simple and easy adjustment to armor types in order to even the field and eliminate “useless” armor types.

Heavy
Full Plate: AC 10 + MD 1 = 11
Half Plate: AC 9 + MD 2 = 11
Banded Mail: AC 8 + MD 3 = 11
Splint Mail: AC 7 + MD 4 = 11

Medium
Chainmail: AC 7 + MD 3 = 10
Brigandine: AC 8 + MD 2 = 10
Breastplate: AC 6 + MD 4 = 10
Scale Mail: AC 7 + MD 3 = 10
Hide Armor: AC 6 + MD 4 = 10

Light
Chain Shirt: AC 4 + MD 5 = 9
Studded Leather: AC 3 + MD 6 = 9
Leather Armor: AC 2 + MD 7 = 9
Padded Armor: AC 1 + MD 8 = 9

The end result of the adjustments is twofold:

1) All armors of a particular proficiency provide potentially identical armor classes, obviously dependent upon the character's DEX bonus. Not only that, but the higher a character’s DEX bonus, the wider the array of functionally identical armors from which to choose. This gives characters with high DEX a bit of a bonus for their investment.

2) The maximum attainable armor class is increased by one. Armor class quickly becomes irrelevant after a certain level, and players have been clamoring about that fact for a long time; a max AC increase is a small step toward fixing that problem. More importantly, characters that can gain better armor proficiency, either by class feature or feat, are rewarded with a slight increase in max AC. Heavy armor tanks, as they should be, will have the best possible armored AC in the game. (Yes, I do realize that high dexterity, monk based characters with an alternate source of armor bonus have the highest potential AC in the game. That situation is far beyond the scope of this post.)

The bottom line is that all armor types will become potentially useful, giving players more choices. Expansion of meaningful choices is always a good thing.

Quoted from Sebastrd in his thread Armor Fixes. This has the additional benefit of making more armor types with mithral or darkweave materials beneficial and competitive. I fully realize this is a small departure from the armor values of the PnP sources but it is a clever and reasonable departure with many benefits.

[Seager52]

It boils down to this:

People like Shade who are die-hard barbarian fans are always going to not want AC to matter because they have none. AC tanks are going to want AC to matter because they have a lot. What I think it foolish is the notion that a barbarian with no armor and a big axe should be the best option for the “tank”.

Since when does it make you the best in the game to have your HP as high as possible and bring along a bunch of healers to keep your stupid toon alive. The way the game is going making the bosses hit harder, have more fortification, and more high damage spells only make it harder on the healers. I mean why on earth we would want the game to have ways for the melee toons to mitigate more damage as opposed to just surrounding a boss and hoping the healers keep them up. I mean for god’s sake if we make the melee’s need skill and not dump their AC that means that we can’t just blame the healers when we fail….that’s crazy!!!! Good god, if the Fighters could have viable AC that means that my precious Barbarian would have to attack from the back and not get the glory of being the “TANK” then people would start liking them more and it would be grade school all over again….NO DON’T PICK ME LAST FOR DODGEBALL AGAIN.

DDO started on their path to mediocrity the moment they started moving away from having defense as an option and pandered to the DPS ball and heal monkey method. This game needs a major overhaul if it wants to keep the DnD name.

Just because a healer hasn’t gone through mana pots doesn’t mean the quest wasn’t challenging. There are plenty of ways to make it challenging without making it Barbarian, Healer , caster repeat.
These can be obtained by making the bosses summon more minions, making the ones with wings fly and cast spells down (oh no, I cant get my axe that high…anyone have a ladder?) make some bosses launch you across the room. The only limitation is the imagination, and if you are content with the DPS and Heal race then I guess that imagination isn’t too vast.

And by the way TANKS are armored tracked vehicles with armaments . So a slower moving armored SD Fighter is a tank. A barbarian with sprint boost, a loin cloth and a big axe is an illiterate ****** with a bladed stick.

I think Barbarians are a asset to the party, just should not be the aggro tank if the game worked like it should.

[Darkrok]

a Barbarian With Sprint Boost, A Loin Cloth And A Big Axe Is An Illiterate ****** With A Bladed Stick.

+1

[Thrudh]

There are plenty of ways to make it challenging without making it Barbarian, Healer , caster repeat.
These can be obtained by making the bosses summon more minions, making the ones with wings fly and cast spells down (oh no, I cant get my axe that high…anyone have a ladder?) make some bosses launch you across the room. The only limitation is the imagination, and if you are content with the DPS and Heal race then I guess that imagination isn’t too vast.

Good post...

[joaofalcao]

It boils down to this:NO DON’T PICK ME LAST FOR DODGEBALL AGAIN.

I laughed so hard with this one.

DDO started on their path to mediocrity the moment they started moving away from having defense as an option and pandered to the DPS ball and heal monkey method. This game needs a major overhaul if it wants to keep the DnD name.

This is so true. Couldnt have said better mate.

The only limitation is the imagination, and if you are content with the DPS and Heal race then I guess that imagination isn’t too vast.

Congratulations mate, you just got a new fan.

[NytCrawlr]

Must.....recharge.....rep....wand!

Since when does it make you the best in the game to have your HP as high as possible and bring along a bunch of healers to keep your stupid toon alive. The way the game is going making the bosses hit harder, have more fortification, and more high damage spells only make it harder on the healers. I mean why on earth we would want the game to have ways for the melee toons to mitigate more damage as opposed to just surrounding a boss and hoping the healers keep them up. I mean for god’s sake if we make the melee’s need skill and not dump their AC that means that we can’t just blame the healers when we fail….that’s crazy!!!!

...

DDO started on their path to mediocrity the moment they started moving away from having defense as an option and pandered to the DPS ball and heal monkey method. This game needs a major overhaul if it wants to keep the DnD name.

These can be obtained by making the bosses summon more minions, making the ones with wings fly and cast spells down (oh no, I cant get my axe that high…anyone have a ladder?) make some bosses launch you across the room. The only limitation is the imagination, and if you are content with the DPS and Heal race then I guess that imagination isn’t too vast.

And by the way TANKS are armored tracked vehicles with armaments . So a slower moving armored SD Fighter is a tank. A barbarian with sprint boost, a loin cloth and a big axe is an illiterate ****** with a bladed stick.

I think Barbarians are a asset to the party, just should not be the aggro tank if the game worked like it should.

[negativeprogression]

Well, what you need to realize is that epic content may not be for the casual player. The game in general should be considered to the casual player, being Normal difficulty geared towards it. Epic difficulty its different thou, its a content everyone can play but requires dedication both on experience, playing skills, understand of the game and its mechanics, character build, equipment, etc.

Being a casual player doesnt mean that you dont have skills, or knowledge of game mechanics and builds. Experience can be shared within a team. The only thing casual players dont have easy access to is kit, that shouldn't exclude them from being able to play a role.

[protokon]

I think Barbarians are a asset to the party, just should not be the aggro tank if the game worked like it should.

quoting my ex-guild leader on this one,

"Having a big red bar is not a valid form of 'defense'"

[Correlan]

It boils down to this:

People like Shade who are die-hard barbarian fans are always going to not want AC to matter because they have none. AC tanks are going to want AC to matter because they have a lot. What I think it foolish is the notion that a barbarian with no armor and a big axe should be the best option for the “tank”.

Since when does it make you the best in the game to have your HP as high as possible and bring along a bunch of healers to keep your stupid toon alive. The way the game is going making the bosses hit harder, have more fortification, and more high damage spells only make it harder on the healers. I mean why on earth we would want the game to have ways for the melee toons to mitigate more damage as opposed to just surrounding a boss and hoping the healers keep them up. I mean for god’s sake if we make the melee’s need skill and not dump their AC that means that we can’t just blame the healers when we fail….that’s crazy!!!! Good god, if the Fighters could have viable AC that means that my precious Barbarian would have to attack from the back and not get the glory of being the “TANK” then people would start liking them more and it would be grade school all over again….NO DON’T PICK ME LAST FOR DODGEBALL AGAIN.

DDO started on their path to mediocrity the moment they started moving away from having defense as an option and pandered to the DPS ball and heal monkey method. This game needs a major overhaul if it wants to keep the DnD name.

Just because a healer hasn’t gone through mana pots doesn’t mean the quest wasn’t challenging. There are plenty of ways to make it challenging without making it Barbarian, Healer , caster repeat.
These can be obtained by making the bosses summon more minions, making the ones with wings fly and cast spells down (oh no, I cant get my axe that high…anyone have a ladder?) make some bosses launch you across the room. The only limitation is the imagination, and if you are content with the DPS and Heal race then I guess that imagination isn’t too vast.

And by the way TANKS are armored tracked vehicles with armaments . So a slower moving armored SD Fighter is a tank. A barbarian with sprint boost, a loin cloth and a big axe is an illiterate ****** with a bladed stick.

I think Barbarians are a asset to the party, just should not be the aggro tank if the game worked like it should.

Spot on +1

[wonkey]

I only skimmed the thread, but I've suggested something along these lines before. But I wouldn't restrict it to a single mob, if possible. I'd like to see an expanded to-hit range for mobs AND players. Although this would require a lot of balancing work to get the right numbers, this would be a fix both for AC and to-hit.

It's not just rediculous that AC is useless. It's silly that players can, apparently, by-and-large, hit just about all monsters on a 2. Both player AND monster AC should have value, and the issue is the limited 20 point attack roll range, and the large range of values for AC and to-hit that players can get.
Expanding the to-hit roll from a d20 to a d40 or d50, or multiple d20s would fix both issues. The hard part would be asjusting monster to-hit and AC to match (but as a stop-gap for testing, AC could be increased by the average of the die increase (eg. 11 for 2d10), and to-hit could be reduced by the same amount)

[EustaceTrevelyan]

but...but... that would make AC usefull. o_O

Yes, and THEN where would we be? You'd have all those bored 20's with all their epics and GS grinding for AC gear. And then they'd be unstoppable! Please, think of the monsters!

[grodon9999]

You will probably need to go full defence in Epics to make AC work. I doubt even ~80 unbuffed AC would help much. The only way I can see AC working in Epics is if the tank just goes for all out AC and Intimidate and be a sort of substitute crowd controller but he would still get beaten up pretty bad.

You won't need AC for trash, only bosses are getting more mojo.

[PNellesen]

My first VOD completion had one. Probably one of the factors behind the 594 minute completion time. (This was when you could reenter after a wipe; I was only there for two hours of that).

Sorry, my brain just exsploded (sic)

[grodon9999]

I only skimmed the thread, but I've suggested something along these lines before. But I wouldn't restrict it to a single mob, if possible. I'd like to see an expanded to-hit range for mobs AND players. Although this would require a lot of balancing work to get the right numbers, this would be a fix both for AC and to-hit.

It's not just rediculous that AC is useless. It's silly that players can, apparently, by-and-large, hit just about all monsters on a 2. Both player AND monster AC should have value, and the issue is the limited 20 point attack roll range, and the large range of values for AC and to-hit that players can get.
Expanding the to-hit roll from a d20 to a d40 or d50, or multiple d20s would fix both issues. The hard part would be asjusting monster to-hit and AC to match (but as a stop-gap for testing, AC could be increased by the average of the die increase (eg. 11 for 2d10), and to-hit could be reduced by the same amount)

The problem is if you up the mob ACs too much non-kensais can't hit anything.

[grodon9999]

It boils down to this:

People like Shade who are die-hard barbarian fans are always going to not want AC to matter because they have none. AC tanks are going to want AC to matter because they have a lot. What I think it foolish is the notion that a barbarian with no armor and a big axe should be the best option for the “tank”.

Since when does it make you the best in the game to have your HP as high as possible and bring along a bunch of healers to keep your stupid toon alive. The way the game is going making the bosses hit harder, have more fortification, and more high damage spells only make it harder on the healers. I mean why on earth we would want the game to have ways for the melee toons to mitigate more damage as opposed to just surrounding a boss and hoping the healers keep them up. I mean for god’s sake if we make the melee’s need skill and not dump their AC that means that we can’t just blame the healers when we fail….that’s crazy!!!! Good god, if the Fighters could have viable AC that means that my precious Barbarian would have to attack from the back and not get the glory of being the “TANK” then people would start liking them more and it would be grade school all over again….NO DON’T PICK ME LAST FOR DODGEBALL AGAIN.

DDO started on their path to mediocrity the moment they started moving away from having defense as an option and pandered to the DPS ball and heal monkey method. This game needs a major overhaul if it wants to keep the DnD name.

Just because a healer hasn’t gone through mana pots doesn’t mean the quest wasn’t challenging. There are plenty of ways to make it challenging without making it Barbarian, Healer , caster repeat.
These can be obtained by making the bosses summon more minions, making the ones with wings fly and cast spells down (oh no, I cant get my axe that high…anyone have a ladder?) make some bosses launch you across the room. The only limitation is the imagination, and if you are content with the DPS and Heal race then I guess that imagination isn’t too vast.

And by the way TANKS are armored tracked vehicles with armaments . So a slower moving armored SD Fighter is a tank. A barbarian with sprint boost, a loin cloth and a big axe is an illiterate ****** with a bladed stick.

I think Barbarians are a asset to the party, just should not be the aggro tank if the game worked like it should.

It's a shame this post is to big to fit in my signature.