Eladrin - a request for an AC experiment on Lamannia

[Jaid314]

My shock isnt about a rogue tanking, its about them loosing so much sneak attack damage tanking, so why bother

well if it's a temporary tank then a massive DPS (and therefore threat) reduction doesn't sound like such a bad idea :P

[aristarchus1000]

/signed

I really like the idea of spreading the random range so that there is some benefit for a larger range of ACs.

[The_Brave2]

well if it's a temporary tank then a massive DPS (and therefore threat) reduction doesn't sound like such a bad idea :P

Fair enough, but why would that rogue have enough threat to be able to take aggro when said tank dies? the smart rogue doing that much DPS would have threat reduction enhancements and gear, the gear could be switched off but I fail to see a rogue having the second amount of aggo on a boss.

However, if he is the second aggro generator on the boss, and he has an AC clickie, Best of luck tanking to him.

[jandhaer]

Interesting idea but I'd prefer the suggestion in the other thread titled something like Iterative Attack Rolls.

Ie, roll for defense as well as offense and then compare results.

sounds like amazing amounts of lag just waiting to happen

[sirgog]

Fair enough, but why would that rogue have enough threat to be able to take aggro when said tank dies? the smart rogue doing that much DPS would have thread reduction enhancement and gear, the gear could be switched off but I fail to see a rogue having the second amount of aggo on a boss.

However, if he is the second aggro generator on the boss, and he has an AC clickie, Best of luck tanking to him.

Intimidate.

That sort of rogue build (which admittedly hasn't been popular since a few months after the cap raised to 16) can and should train Intimidate. (In fact, most rogues should, so they can take aggro off critical party members to buy time in a near-wipe situation).

Intimidate is now better than it was pre-U9 at catching up when you are behind in threat. One successful Intim, and you are the threat leader for good, if everyone else stops attacking. Which they usually do in a 'oh hell, tank died and the boss is running across the room' situation.

[The_Brave2]

Intimidate.

the threat leader for good, if everyone else stops attacking. Which they usually do in a 'oh hell, tank died and the boss is running across the room' situation.

Fair enough, but I fail to see why an AC build rogue would be the ideal backup tank even in that situation. Granted, in an 'oh ****' situation, anything viable will do

Edit: Also, I love how in DDO even something that seems crazy can be made viable and work in some situations. Tanking Rogue? no problem. Mele Cleric? No problem. Main Healing Bard? No problem. Tanking Wizard? No problem. Just to name a few. one of my favorite parts of the game (granted im not a player that would play something like that, just like to see it done. Though I do play a Wizard that can tank.)

[SableShadow]

Intimidate.

That sort of rogue build (which admittedly hasn't been popular since a few months after the cap raised to 16) can and should train Intimidate. (In fact, most rogues should, so they can take aggro off critical party members to buy time in a near-wipe situation).

Intimidate is now better than it was pre-U9 at catching up when you are behind in threat. One successful Intim, and you are the threat leader for good, if everyone else stops attacking. Which they usually do in a 'oh hell, tank died and the boss is running across the room' situation.

Not even. You turn off SB (that's the Subtle Backstabber enhancement to you laymen), swap into something that disables your Tharnes, and stick the sucker with pointy objects.

I've picked up the agro before, on a dex based frickin' Drow with all that <stuff, so I don't get another infraction from one of my many "fans"> running ... it is not nearly as hard as you're making it. I've held it (agro in eChrono) through a breath, too.

It's gear, buffs, and sand, not class...or is currently on Live. We'll see with the update...as is, agro isn't the issue. You want it, you can get it. Sustainable survivability, on the other hand, is an issue.

Edit: Also, I love how in DDO even something that seems crazy can be made viable and work in some situations.

That's because it isn't an archtype game, though it looks like such.

[Seikojin]

Fair enough, but I fail to see why an AC build rogue would be the ideal backup tank even in that situation. Granted, in an 'oh ****' situation, anything viable will do

Edit: Also, I love how in DDO even something that seems crazy can be made viable and work in some situations. Tanking Rogue? no problem. Mele Cleric? No problem. Main Healing Bard? No problem. Tanking Wizard? No problem. Just to name a few. one of my favorite parts of the game (granted im not a player that would play something like that, just like to see it done. Though I do play a Wizard that can tank.)

That also is a reason why I like the game.

[grodon9999]

As for epic trash - I think most of it should be in the 50+2d20 to 70+2d20 range, with the 50+2d20 mobs hitting significantly harder than the 70+2d20 mobs. Epic rednameds mostly in the 50+3d20 range.

I missed this, and I approve. Make it so Turbine.

[Shade]

Why do you keep insinuating that there is any problem with epic to hits of bosses?

They have been like this for years, and all new bosses have the same amounts.

They aren't making mistakes typing the value dude.

Not sure how I can break this to you any clearer, really sorry but its the bottmline and a fact:

AC is not intended to work on epic bosses because it would be far too easy to tank if they did.

They are meant to be a massive challenge but any and all groups, and not made 100% trivial by any 1 tank because he has some arbitrary stat that makes him invulnerable.

A system where its 100% damage or zero damage (or at least close enough) is just broken and doesn't work in an mmo set to the hardest setting intended to actually challenging endgame geared players.

Unless they set them to like grazing hit on a 2-20, then set there grazing hit damage to say 80% so your just taken the damage down a reasonable value like 20%.. No it can never happen. Such a massive reduction in damage either means

A) It's a joke if you have an AC tank.
B) They set the bosses damage so high it's impossible to tank without an AC tank.

Both options are poor and not fun.

Thus why they are instead giving the defensive PrE's huge +20% HP modifiers, rather then more AC, as they are already at more then enough to tank normal, and its not meant to work on epic.

But it's never enough is it.. Everyone must have every handed to them on a silver platter.. Even epic raid bosses aparently. All I can say is good luck, but the devs know better.

[sirgog]

Why do you keep insinuating that there is any problem with epic to hits of bosses?

They have been like this for years, and all new bosses have the same amounts.

They aren't making mistakes typing the value dude.

Not sure how I can break this to you any clearer, really sorry but its the bottmline and a fact:

AC is not intended to work on epic bosses because it would be far too easy to tank if they did.

They are meant to be a massive challenge but any and all groups, and not made 100% trivial by any 1 tank because he has some arbitrary stat that makes him invulnerable.

A system where its 100% damage or zero damage (or at least close enough) is just broken and doesn't work in an mmo set to the hardest setting intended to actually challenging endgame geared players.

Unless they set them to like grazing hit on a 2-20, then set there grazing hit damage to say 80% so your just taken the damage down a reasonable value like 20%.. No it can never happen. Such a massive reduction in damage either means

A) It's a joke if you have an AC tank.
B) They set the bosses damage so high it's impossible to tank without an AC tank.

Both options are poor and not fun.

Thus why they are instead giving the defensive PrE's huge +20% HP modifiers, rather then more AC, as they are already at more then enough to tank normal, and its not meant to work on epic.

But it's never enough is it.. Everyone must have every handed to them on a silver platter.. Even epic raid bosses aparently. All I can say is good luck, but the devs know better.

Uh - AC works fine on the toughest boss in the game, right now.

Elite Horoth is not trivialised by an AC tank, nor is he impossible without one.

It's the easier bosses they released later - epic Lailat, epic Velah - that AC doesn't work on. And guess what - they are easier without AC than Horoth is with it.



Oh and on a side note - I for one am really looking forward to U11 totally killing off the 'tanks' with no damage mitigation, and never being in the position of having to heal a half-orc barbarian 'tank' through ToD again.

[Meetch1972]

Should it be 3d20 or 1d60 added for this test? I think it'd be worth exploring.

60+3d20 gives 63 - 120, with significantly more rolls at ~90-93 (within 1.5 of the average) than < 70 or > 115.
60+1d60 gives 61 - 120 with an even probability distribution.

I've nothing against either of those options - just possibly raising awareness that the 2 are different.

This thread has raised a thought that to-hit could be scaled differently through difficulty settings.

Plucking figures out of nowhere... edit: Illustration purposes only, please don't hose me 'cos they're wrong!

Bloodplate on normal: To-Hit is 15+1d20.
Hard: To-Hit is 15+1d20+1d3.
Elite: 15+1d20+2d3
Epic: 60+1d60 (or 3d20)

Meh, whatever. As long as it works!

[sirgog]

Should it be 3d20 or 1d60 added for this test? I think it'd be worth exploring.

60+3d20 gives 63 - 120, with significantly more rolls at ~90-93 (within 1.5 of the average) than < 70 or > 115.
60+1d60 gives 61 - 120 with an even probability distribution.

I've nothing against either of those options - just possibly raising awareness that the 2 are different.

This thread has raised a thought that to-hit could be scaled differently through difficulty settings.

Plucking figures out of nowhere... edit: Illustration purposes only, please don't hose me 'cos they're wrong!

Bloodplate on normal: To-Hit is 15+1d20.
Hard: To-Hit is 15+1d20+1d3.
Elite: 15+1d20+2d3
Epic: 60+1d60 (or 3d20)

Meh, whatever. As long as it works!

60+1d60 is very different from 60+3d20, as you say.

The reason I didn't suggest that is that 60+1d60 doesn't really work well with a lot of other major systems in game - auto-misses on a 1, critical threats and the like.

You could mimic those by having a flat 5% automiss, 5% autocrit and a percentage chance to threaten a crit or land a graze that mimics the present one. But that feels (IMO) like it would be harder to understand. Easier to model, however.

I also considered suggesting 60+1d20, with a variable 1d40 bonus. I just didn't feel this was as elegant a solution as the 3d20 attack roll. The tabletop player in me likes the feel of rolling lots of d20s. (I did also consider 50+4d20, which is significantly more effort to model on a spreadsheet and I'd probably have needed to write a program to calculate accurate mitigation figures for that - any time you need a computer program to theorycraft, I think something's a little wrong). With 3d20, '3% per point of AC near the middle range' is an accurate approximation.

[Khellendros13]

Uh - AC works fine on the toughest boss in the game, right now.

Elite Horoth is not trivialised by an AC tank, nor is he impossible without one.

It's the easier bosses they released later - epic Lailat, epic Velah - that AC doesn't work on. And guess what - they are easier without AC than Horoth is with it.



Oh and on a side note - I for one am really looking forward to U11 totally killing off the 'tanks' with no damage mitigation, and never being in the position of having to heal a half-orc barbarian 'tank' through ToD again.

Hell yes, so true. Getting hit for grazing hits at 45dmg on 13-19 still adds up and by no means makes it a cake walk. Easier than a meatbag hit for 100 every swing, but still no walk in the park.

Easily 90+ac with PA on and 830hp OR a 900hp meatbag?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=337458

Why do you keep insinuating that there is any problem with epic to hits of bosses?

They have been like this for years, and all new bosses have the same amounts.

They aren't making mistakes typing the value dude.

Not sure how I can break this to you any clearer, really sorry but its the bottmline and a fact:

AC is not intended to work on epic bosses because it would be far too easy to tank if they did.

They are meant to be a massive challenge but any and all groups, and not made 100% trivial by any 1 tank because he has some arbitrary stat that makes him invulnerable.

A system where its 100% damage or zero damage (or at least close enough) is just broken and doesn't work in an mmo set to the hardest setting intended to actually challenging endgame geared players.

Unless they set them to like grazing hit on a 2-20, then set there grazing hit damage to say 80% so your just taken the damage down a reasonable value like 20%.. No it can never happen. Such a massive reduction in damage either means

A) It's a joke if you have an AC tank.
B) They set the bosses damage so high it's impossible to tank without an AC tank.

Both options are poor and not fun.

Thus why they are instead giving the defensive PrE's huge +20% HP modifiers, rather then more AC, as they are already at more then enough to tank normal, and its not meant to work on epic.

But it's never enough is it.. Everyone must have every handed to them on a silver platter.. Even epic raid bosses aparently. All I can say is good luck, but the devs know better.

Every epic boss on live right now is easy to tank.

Epic Abishai Devastator is a complete joke without evasion and staying in on fire.

Epic Lailat EVERYONE tanks. She has almost no hp.

Epic Velah swings slow and the fight is short.

These are trivial, but will just do more dmg in U11 and take longer to kill. How will an AC tank make that trivial if they get missed half the time and still get pinged for 50-60dmg on half of those misses ?

They still need healing, still need skill to pilot, still need gear, still need the player to focus. In fact they need to keep up more buffs and buttons to maintain aggro and keep ac up.

Allowing ac95 to be 50% misses on Epic bosses will not make the fights go faster, just smoother. You can still choose to take 2 barbarians and 4 bluebars and crush it. No one will stop you tanking on your barbarian, and you can freely decline those Defender gimps with more hp than most barbarians.

You cannot honestly ask for a nerf to fvs, tell us ac is not meant to work in epics as a design choice (when the devs wondered why no one used snb on lammy) while promoting the Barbarian Tank. It's just getting obnoxious.

Don't take that the wrong way, you get **** done, but how about someone else getting a chance to shine eh?

[Dragavon]

As an experiment on Lamannia, can you adjust the Epic Cojoined Abashai Devastator to have 60+3d20 To-Hit (instead of the current 100+1d20 or whatever it is)? The first die rolled would still determine critical threats, grazes, and auto-misses, like Minion.

I like the concept, but I do not think 3d20 would be a good way to do it. That is because when rolling 3 die they will average each outher out.

When you roll 1d20 you have the same chance to roll a 1 as you have to roll 20.

When you roll 3d20 you will get a large number of results from 25 to 35, and a progressively lower number of rolls towards 3 and 60.

I think the "working" ac range with this system would be even shorter than it is now.

On the other hand, if the roll was 1d60..........

[Mister_Peace]

All I can say is good luck, but the devs know better.

Dude, the devs do not always succeed in implementing their intentions. It's BS to claim that existing systems prove anything about what their intentions are.

Oh, and epics as being a challenge for the best of the best: if "the best of the best" by definition cannot include AC tanks, something is wrong.

[moops]

Agree,
And we would not see people either waiting so long for tanks for a couple non EPic raids, or failing because their healers run out of SP--hopefully

I think it would boost the game all around.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Dude, the devs do not always succeed in implementing their intentions. It's BS to claim that existing systems prove anything about what their intentions are.

Oh, and epics as being a challenge for the best of the best: if "the best of the best" by definition cannot include AC tanks, something is wrong.

Well.

Best of the Best obviously means fully epic geared barbarians followed by blue bars. Anything else would just be uncivilized.

[Mistycball]

I always think that the worst problem of D&D is the AC system.
It's complicated to adjust at high levels. When I was DNA I use DR boost depending of the amount of AC of the toon.
In this case it would be a boost of DR when blocking. More AC more DR.

[Forzah]

naturally. the roll of 3d20 will tend towards the middle values much more than the rolls of 1d20...

that is, there is an even distribution from 1-20 on a d20, with a 5% chance of each number occuring (in theory). the odds of rolling a 10 or 11 are actually equal to the odds of rolling 1 or 20.

on 3d20, assuming you had that exactly equal distribution of numbers, you would only get a 3 in 1 out of every 8,000 rolls or something crazy like that (that is, you'd need to hit 3 consecutive 1/20 chances, so 1/20/20/20 = 1/8,000).

in comparison, to get a 4, it's something like... you could roll: 1,1,2 = 4, or you could roll 1, 2, 1 = 4, or you could roll 1, 1, 2 = 4, so three times as likely if i'm not mistaken... or 3/8,000 which is still not a very high chance.. for a 5, it could be 1, 1, 3 or 1, 3, 1 or 3, 1, 1 or 2, 2, 1 or 1, 2, 2 or 2, 1, 2, so 5 chances out of 8,000 (much higher, but still not high). this sort of thing continues on, with theoretically most rolls coming out right near the middle of the "bell curve" so to speak. as a result, you see a lot more variation in numbers close to the theoretical average value of 3d20 + 60 (ie 91.5).

this is why a 5 point difference from 70-75 (close to 3%) is worth so much less than the 5 point difference from 90-95 (close to 15%)

and of course, starting from 75 and onwards (the lowest value where the "first" roll can be 13 and up), each AC point tends to be slightly less valuable than it otherwise would be, although this is mostly overridden by the overall trend for AC to matter close to ~91.

Maybe make it 1d60 instead then?

edit: seems Dragavon posted the same suggestion.