Spike - U11 Crossbowman extraordinaire

[OldAquarian]

Human - 7 Artificer (Battle Engineer)/7 Rogue (Mechanic)/6 Ranger (Deepwood Sniper)

* Based on currect Artificer Info and hand calculated - will update when builder does

Note that aside from Artificer, fire rates have changed and Point Blank shot doubles base dice

Goal - Focus on maximizing crossbow damage
Bonus - Trapskills

Artificer 7
- Rune Arm/Defender/Infusion/UMD/Traps + Battle Engineer
Rogue 7
- Sneak Attack/Evasion/UMD/Traps + Mechanic
Ranger 6
- Favored Enemy/Speed Burst/Free Feats/Minor spells + Deepwood Sniper (Effects Sneak Attack and Point Blank Shot)
Human
- Extra Feat & Skill/Versatility


. . . 1 - Rogue (Insightful Reflexes/Weapon Finesse)
. 2-7 - Ranger (Point Blank Shot/WF:Ranged) [Rapid Shot][Manyshot][TWF/iTWF] {FE:Undead}{FE:Evil Outsider} -- Deepwood Sniper
. 8-10 - Artificer (Toughness) [Rapid Reload][Rune Arm] - ** Can use bow/rapier up till here - now swap to Xbow **
11-16 - Rogue [Evasion] (Precise Shot/Imp Precise Shot) -- Mechanic
17-20 - Artificer (IC:Ranged/gTWF) [Rune Arm] -- Battle Engineer

Stats (32 pt)
DEX - 17 (13 pts) +2 Tome +6 Item +1 Enh = 26 (+8) [+2 Tome Required for Imp Precise shot]
CON - 14 (6 pts) +2 Tome +6 Item = 22 (+6)
INT - 17 (13 pts) +2 Tome +6 Item +5 level ups +2 Enh = 32 (+11)


Enhancements
Battle Engineer Pre:
1 Artificer Xbow Attack I
3 Artificer Xbow Damage II (only I is required)
3 Artificer Damage Boost II
4 Battle Engineer I
11 Total

Mechanic Pre:
1 Rogue Fire Trap Lore I
1 Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
3 Rogue Skill Boost II
2 Improved Open Lock II
2 Improved Disable Device II
4 Mechanic I
13 Total

Deepwood Sniper Pre:
2 Improved Hide II
2 Improved Move Silently II
2 Improved Spot II
4 Deepwood Sniper
10 Total

Stats
2 Ranger DEX I
2 Artificer INT I
2 Human INT I
6 Total

Rogue
6 Haste Boost III
3 Sneak Attack Accuracy II
6 Sneak Attack Training III
3 Rogue Wrack Construct II
18 Total

Ranger
3 Favored Damage II
1 Ranger Sprint Boost I
4 Total

Artificer
3 Improved Rune Arm II
2 Rune Arm Overcharge I
5 Total

Human
10 Versatility IV
3 Toughness II
13 Total

80 Grand Total

[OldAquarian]

Any comments?

[RedDragonScale]

Please explain why the build is so extraordinary.

Tell me about the play style. Tell me about the amount of damage and in which situations the build does it. Suppose the Insightful Damage infusion never stacks with Rogue Mechanic I. What then?

In short, please tell us more about the build and advocate why it's better than any other Crossbow build.

Thanks.

(P.S. I don't disagree that it's a fine build. I just want you to tell me more and why I should choose it over some other repeater builds.)

[Luckness]

Xbow Attack II requires level 10 according to the DDO Wiki page.

Your stated primary goal with the build is to maximize crossbow damage. For comparison I want to list what the levels of Artificer, Rogue, and Ranger bring to your xbow damage.

I know that you have mentioned using Great Crossbows, but I'm ignoring that, as in my understanding it is repeaters that can gain the Intelligence modifier from the rogue prestige enhancement Mechanic (unless that is changing) and that have the best rate of fire (again, unless that is also changing).



Rogue 7:

Mechanic prestige lets you use your Intelligence modifier for repeater damage. This allows you to use a different temporary enchantment on your weapon other than Insightful Damage (which does the same thing). This should translate into 1d6 elemental damage from the Elemental Weapons infusion.

The rogue class gives you 4d6 sneak attack damage at level 7 with another 9 damage from enhancements (Sneak Attack Training III). Total of 23 average sneak attack damage.

The rogue class gives you Haste Boost III at level 7. This is a substantial temporary DPS increase. It can be activated sequentially with artificer damage boost or simultaneously with human versatility.

In sum: About 26.5 damage per bolt when sneak attacking and over 20% more damage during haste boost.

Ranger 6:

Deepwood Sniper prestige increases the range for sneak attack and point blank shot on a crossbow. This is a major convenience at times and it is a DPS increase to the extent that you must stay at range or that it takes a significant amount of time to close range.

Ram's Might offers 2 more damage per bolt, the strength portion of the spell being irrelevant.

With the spend of 3 AP, the FE damage, for two Favored Enemies, is another 6 per bolt.

You get one free feat that affects repeater crossbows, i.e. Rapid Shot. You also get two of the TWF feats, but I am not sure what benefit this really is on a build investing so much into crossbows.

You could have chosen Arcane Archer but it would require Elf or Half-Elf to flesh out the PrE fully. If you did so, however, it would make Manyshot on a bow a powerful cooldown to use in combination with repeaters.

In sum: Greater range for sneak attacks and PBS, 8 more damage when fighting FE and 2 more damage otherwise. Up to three useful free feats.

Artificer 7:

You get access to third level infusions. If you are multi-classing with Mechanic Rogue, you would want to use Insightful Strikes (if you wanted to dump stat Dex) or Elemental Weapons (1d6 damage) or perhaps a certain DR breaker. Otherwise, you would want to use Insightful Damage in order to add your Intelligence modifier to your damage.

The battle engineer prestige gives you Endless Fusillade (a temporary damage increase for 5 times * 6 seconds). It gives you 2 attack bonus and 2 damage on your mainhand weapon (the crossbow). It also adds +2 seeker, which translates into 20% * (2 seeker * 2 multiplier) on a repeater crossbow, or an average 0.8 damage.

You get a bonus feat for artificer at every 4th level, with many available to increase ranged damage.

You get +2 damage from the Crossbow Damage II enhancement.

You get a hard-to-quantify benefit from Artificer Knowledge improving your use of clickies and UMD scrolls. Significantly, the duration of the buffs should be extended due to increased caster level, making items that would be a DPS loss because of activation time into a DPS increase. One thing that occurs to me is that a level 13 Artificer could use the vendor's Divine Favor scroll (caster level 1) as a caster level 6, thus giving about a minute's time of +2 damage and +2 attack.

In sum: 4.8 damage per bolt, 3.5 damage or Int-based attack if cross-classing Mechanic, class-based damage boost, and 30 seconds of increased crossbow fire.



My opinion: I can see the attraction of cross-classing mechanic rogue and artificer on a repeater build. Between the two classes you get access to a lot:

Haste Boost, Damage Boost, and a crossbow-only temporary damage boost.
23 average sneak attack damage.
1d6 damage temporary enchantment or the option to use Int for attack.
4.8 damage from artificer enhancements.
One useful feat from artificer.

However, I think you could do a little better than adding 6 Ranger to this mix. The prestige enhancement itself is an underwhelming spend of 10 action points and 6 class levels (given that the prerequisites are useless). The extra FE damage is nice, but comparable benefits can be had from other classes.



6 levels of Fighter:

You get an extra action boost, which is significant with access to 3 boosts already (Haste, Damage, and the Battle Engineer boost) with a fourth (Attack) required for the prestige.

You get +1 attack and damage from Weapon Mastery as well as +2 seeker. This 1.8 average damage.

You get Fighter Toughness II, not a DPS increase but nothing you would want to pass up if splashing Fighter.

You get the Weapon Focus / Weapon Specialization feats for another +1 attack and +2 damage.

You get two other feats to spend as you wish.

In sum: 3.8 damage, an extra action boost, and two feats to spend. This is really just on par with Ranger but is worth mentioning.


6 more levels of Rogue:

You get access to Haste Boost IV.

You get two Rogue special ability feats, with Improved Evasion and Opportunist being winners.

You get another 3d6+3 sneak attack damage.

You get more DPS when sneak attacking from taking Assassin II than if you took Mechanic II, supposing you have the Dexterity for sufficient hit and you use Artificer to add your Intelligence bonus to damage. If so, that's 2d6 sneak attack and the handy option of using assassinate for instakill with your high intelligence.

In sum: An average 20.5 sneak attack damage at the cost of 3.5 elemental damage. Reduce fortification by 10% for more sneak attacks and critical hits.


6 more levels of Artificer:

You get 5th level infusions.

You get more spell points.

You get higher caster level.

You get two more bonus feats for passing through levels 8 and 12 of artificer. You also get the +1 to all skills of Artificer skill mastery and the Improved UMD 3 enhancement.

You get Artificer Knowledge allowing, for example, +5 caster level on scrolls. This is the highest bonus to scrolls available to artificers. I've already mentioned how this could be used in conjunction with Divine Favor scrolls as an example.

You get Crossbow Attack II.

You get the third Intelligence enhancement, potentially giving +1 to damage with repeater crossbows.

You get more of the characteristic Artificer buffs that groups will want you for. Radiant Forcefield, for example, to reduce damage on a player by 25% for a time.

In sum: The artificer is a caster and has many of the same benefits/penalties as other caster classes from deep multiclassing. Depending on how useful the artificer knowledge is, you could get about +3 damage or even more from this choice.


Even more levels Artificer (15+):

You get sixth level infusions. These include some of the best there are: Blade Barrier and Reconstruct, for obvious reasons, are great. Tactical Detonation might be a very good nuke spell.

Deadly Weapons will turn a 1d10 crossbow into 2d10 instead. This means you will get a minimum of 5.5 average damage (roll 2 to 16) with 11 average damage on crit (roll 17 to 20) for an average additional damage on hit of 6.6 damage. This is an improvement over 1d6 elemental damage, especially against targets with elemental resistances. Unfortunately, there is no way to get this and also to get Mechanic rogue, and you are therefore giving up your Intelligence modifier to damage, so there is no real benefit here.


In conclusion: I think the most benefit is to be gained from going 13 Artificer / 7 Rogue Mechanic (for the artificer caster goodness) or 7 Artificer / 13 Rogue Assassin (for the damage). Options that seem less optimal to me are 7 Artificer / 7 Rogue / 6 Ranger or 7 Artificer / 7 Rogue / 6 Fighter (because Ranger or Fighter are less damage in exchange for your valuable artificer levels). The last 7 Artificer levels have their unique benefits, especially if you are focused on the caster aspect of artificer, but they can very reasonably be exchanged for Rogue to get better use of the repeater, especially when sneak attacking and/or haste boosted.

[Stillwaters]

In conclusion: I think the most benefit is to be gained from going 13 Artificer / 7 Rogue Mechanic (for the artificer caster goodness) or 7 Artificer / 13 Rogue Assassin (for the damage). Options that seem less optimal to me are 7 Artificer / 7 Rogue / 6 Ranger or 7 Artificer / 7 Rogue / 6 Fighter (because Ranger or Fighter are less damage in exchange for your valuable artificer levels). The last 7 Artificer levels have their unique benefits, especially if you are focused on the caster aspect of artificer, but they can very reasonably be exchanged for Rogue to get better use of the repeater, especially when sneak attacking and/or haste boosted.

In your assessment of the 7 Artificer / 7 Rogue / 6 Fighter build - do you account for Helf elf AA build < more arty or rogue?

With haste-boost AND versatility damage-boost active that's a lot of bonus damage. I built a theoretical one in my sig, but originally was tempted to add more arty or rogue and ditch the ftr lvls, but the thought of manyshot-spamming-slaying-arrows was too tempting.

Ftr builds also add kensai mind you. - the Rifleman goes for all 4 PRE!

[wax_on_wax_off]

I've made a very similar build. The main difference is a few points in strength to make use of manyshot and TWF'ing style as the jury is still out on whether a pure full time crossbow user is optimal or if there will still be occasions when melee is useful.

As close as I can figure even without AA manyshot can be a +40-50% DPS boost while it is active.

As far as leveling goes I'd tend to feel that going to 1 rogue, 1 artificer, 6 ranger straight up is going to be a fairly optimal choice for quick access to rapid shot, ITWF, manyshot and ram's might.

[MichelYoh]

(/snip)
In conclusion: I think the most benefit is to be gained from going 13 Artificer / 7 Rogue Mechanic (for the artificer caster goodness) or 7 Artificer / 13 Rogue Assassin (for the damage). Options that seem less optimal to me are 7 Artificer / 7 Rogue / 6 Ranger or 7 Artificer / 7 Rogue / 6 Fighter (because Ranger or Fighter are less damage in exchange for your valuable artificer levels). The last 7 Artificer levels have their unique benefits, especially if you are focused on the caster aspect of artificer, but they can very reasonably be exchanged for Rogue to get better use of the repeater, especially when sneak attacking and/or haste boosted.

The only problem i see here is that you cant go Battle Engineer/Assassin, since you need Damage Boost for both.
(one from Arty and one from Rogue)

This aside, you can stack up Insightful Damage/Strikes (but not the two together) AND another infusion on the same weapon.
Which means a DR bypass or Elemental damage. Since Rogue already adds up Int on xbows, Insightful Strikes is the way to go. (to-Hit and Dmg with Int)

[OldAquarian]

Xbow Attack II requires level 10 according to the DDO Wiki page.

Fixed, Thanks

As close as I can figure even without AA manyshot can be a +40-50% DPS boost while it is active.

As far as leveling goes I'd tend to feel that going to 1 rogue, 1 artificer, 6 ranger straight up is going to be a fairly optimal choice for quick access to rapid shot, ITWF, manyshot and ram's might.

readjusted levels - figured to go bow early with multi - advance ranger first (even before any artificer)
Then once you get 3 levels of Artificer - go XBow get rune arm and lvl 2 spells - then Full Rogue - finally finish rest of Artificer

[rimble]

Mechanic prestige lets you use your Intelligence modifier for repeater damage. This allows you to use a different temporary enchantment on your weapon other than Insightful Damage (which does the same thing). This should translate into 1d6 elemental damage from the Elemental Weapons infusion.

The Insightful infusions are separate from the rest of the weapon infusions. You can have one Insightful infusion, and one of the other infusions, on your weapon at the same time.

A pure Artificer would probably go:
Dex-to-Attack
Int-to-Damage via Insightful Damage
Deadly Weapons

A multi-class that includes Mechanic I would probably go:
Int-to-Attack via Insightful Strike
Int-to-Damage via Mechanic I
Elemental Weapons (or Deadly Weapons from a higher level Artificer)

By going Mechanic I and being able to use Int-to-Attack, you're probably looking at about +3-4 Attack over the pure Artificer using Dex. Of course the difference depends on your Dex and Int scores.

[PestWulf]

This was actually the build I had decided on as well until I found out the INT bonuses are not likely going to stack. With that in mind, I switched mine to 11 Rouge / 6 Ranger / 3 Artificer. Gives you second level arty spells and the rune arm for boosting bolt damage and loaded on more sneak damage instead of the arty spells

[RedDragonScale]

This was actually the build I had decided on as well until I found out the INT bonuses are not likely going to stack.

Says who?

Eladrin never said they weren't going to stack. This is what he actually said:

I've just looked into it. Mechanic actually sets the ability modifier for crossbows to Intelligence, which means that it's doing the same thing as Insightful Damage. (This is why they're not stacking.)

I'll have to think about this a little bit, since I see some reasons why it was done the way it was.

He's not saying they WON'T stack. He's saying they don't stack now and here's a reason why. He's also implying he has to go back and think about how to re-code either the infusion or the MechI ability so that they do stack without affecting other areas of the game adversely.

[PestWulf]

You are completely dreaming if you see him implying that he's running off to think up a way to code this so that they work together. He says blatantly that he sees reasons why it was done this way...meaning so that they wouldn't stack.

You can read it with your super optimism however you like. My way of thinking says they aren't going to do it any time soon, if ever. Whether that is for coding reasons or balance reasons, I don't know, but I'm going off the assumption it's not going to happen and changing my build accordingly.

Believe me, I would absolutely LOVE to be wrong.

[rimble]

He's also implying he has to go back and think about how to re-code either the infusion or the MechI ability so that they do stack without affecting other areas of the game adversely.

The implying you're referring to I interpreted differently.

Eladrin saying "since I see some reasons why it was coded the way it was" leads to the implication you've gotten to. It was coded in some particular manner for some technical limitation, and they're going to see if they can change it to work around that limitation and stack.

Rather than that, I heard it more as "since I see some reasons why it was designed the way it was". Which to me sounds more like "they were purposefully designed not to stack and I think there was some good reasons for that" (maybe some upcoming PrEs, spells, items, etc).

I absolutely think even if it were to be implemented, it won't be along with U11. I wouldn't build for it right now. Lamannia is pretty much done after today I think.

[OldAquarian]

Rather than that, I heard it more as "since I see some reasons why it was designed the way it was". Which to me sounds more like "they were purposefully designed not to stack and I think there was some good reasons for that" (maybe some upcoming PrEs, spells, items, etc).

Exactly how are they not stacking?

[RedDragonScale]

The implying you're referring to I interpreted differently.

Eladrin saying "since I see some reasons why it was coded the way it was" leads to the implication you've gotten to. It was coded in some particular manner for some technical limitation, and they're going to see if they can change it to work around that limitation and stack.

Rather than that, I heard it more as "since I see some reasons why it was designed the way it was". Which to me sounds more like "they were purposefully designed not to stack and I think there was some good reasons for that" (maybe some upcoming PrEs, spells, items, etc).

I absolutely think even if it were to be implemented, it won't be along with U11. I wouldn't build for it right now. Lamannia is pretty much done after today I think.

Interesting thoughts rimble but let me ask you a question.

If your interpretation ("designed") is correct, what do you make of the first sentence of the second paragraph of the Eladrin quote?

That is, if the "not stacking" was "designed" to be that way, why would Eladrin bother saying he'd "have to think about this a little bit"? In my question, I'm implying that if the "not stacking" thing was designed and intentional, there would be no need to "think about it" again because it was already "thought about."

I'm suggesting there would be no need for him to go over it again if there weren't something wrong. He's got a lot of other stuff to do/fix without having to "think about" something that has already been decided, right?

[rimble]

Exactly how are they not stacking?

A quote from Eladrin a while ago implied that Mechanic I allows you to ADD your Int to crossbow damage, and that Insightful Damage REPLACES the 'Damage' stat of your weapon with Int, further implying that this should allow them to stack to effectively have 2 x Int bonus to your Crossbow damage. However, it was not implemented this way.

If your interpretation ("designed") is correct, what do you make of the first sentence of the second paragraph of the Eladrin quote?

That is, if the "not stacking" was "designed" to be that way, why would Eladrin bother saying he'd "have to think about this a little bit"? In my question, I'm implying that if the "not stacking" thing was designed and intentional, there would be no need to "think about it" again because it was already "thought about."

It sounded to me like Eladrin wasn't intimately involved in the design. I read it as kind of Eladrin saying "Oh, right...I remember talking to DeveloperX about that in the break room three weeks ago. He mentioned something about them stacking being a bad idea because...I don't know...a particular build, a PrE, a spell maybe...? I don't remember, but he mentioned it'd be a bad idea if they stacked. I'll have to talk to DeveloperX to understand his reasoning."

Of course, either way we're guessing, I think the final proof to really look at is that it's not on Lamannia. I'm not going to plan for something that was merely a somewhat 'casual' conversation and not even talked about in a specific "oh we're definitely implementing this" sort of way. Don't get me wrong, I have this similar build planned already if it DOES show up, but I'm spending a little more energy/attention on planning a build without this stacking.

[RedDragonScale]

Of course, either way we're guessing, I think the final proof to really look at is that it's not on Lamannia. I'm not going to plan for something that was merely a somewhat 'casual' conversation and not even talked about in a specific "oh we're definitely implementing this" sort of way. Don't get me wrong, I have this similar build planned already if it DOES show up, but I'm spending a little more energy/attention on planning a build without this stacking.

Agreed for the most part.

I still can't get past why he'll "have to think about it" bit though. I really think he's got too much to do to revisit old design decisions that were already made.

Call it wishful thinking if you like but I've decided that if MechI and Insightful Damage don't stack, I will be passing on Artificer altogether so I'm REALLY hoping they do stack.

[rimble]

Call it wishful thinking if you like but I've decided that if MechI and Insightful Damage don't stack, I will be passing on Artificer altogether so I'm REALLY hoping they do stack.

Yeah, I'm pretty bummed out. I'm not big on buffer characters, and I don't want to just lay Blade Barriers and run around in circles), so was really looking forward to the Repeater aspects since it's a build I've tried to get to work before. Without that stacking, there's really not a strong enough reason to not go Artificer 20, so there I'll be, running around in circles in Blade Barriers. Ah well.

I guess the good news is that IF the stacking shows up, maybe it will show up in U12, so you can get your Artificer access for free via favor when it's more appealing to you.

(As an aside, since I solo alot, the Rogue path to a Repeater character doesn't appeal to me because of the unreliable nature of Sneak Attack)

[Opposite0479]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe weapon finese only effects to-hit not damadge so strength is still required to some degree, also if your going to use a bow why would you waste a feat increasing your melee? Also why not increase artificer to 8 for the extra artificer feat at lvl 8 (one every four levels) and make rogue only 6. Instead of weapon finese perhaps a metamagic or augment summoning. Just my opinion and again please do point out if I'm wrong about anything.

[Hyperian]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe weapon finese only effects to-hit not damadge so strength is still required to some degree, also if your going to use a bow why would you waste a feat increasing your melee? Also why not increase artificer to 8 for the extra artificer feat at lvl 8 (one every four levels) and make rogue only 6. Instead of weapon finese perhaps a metamagic or augment summoning. Just my opinion and again please do point out if I'm wrong about anything.

Lemme see if I can clear up a few bits.

Weapon finesse does indeed only do to-hit so str would be important for the melee. However I believe it's temporary as they are planning on taking artificer later on in the character life and switch focus. At that point, it would be simple to use the free feat swap and change it over. A lot of meta-magic doesn't work on arti spells, so they aren't as strong of a pull as most would think. The pet is based on arti levels. At lvl 20, we're talking a level 8 pet. Great for some supplemental DPS, but they'll be 1 shot from a level 20 mob.

For my own 2 bits on the build.

I am building something similar to this, although I started arti to level 2, ranger 2, then rogue 2 (evasion). From there, I'm trying to decide how to go. battle engi basically gives multi-shot for x-bows. No reload == substantially increased damage output, especially with repeaters. On lam, I watched stuff melt in front of me because of that.

As for the stacking of mech and int.. personally, I believe it's a coding thing. Everyone was told that mech added int to the item, they came up with insightful damage that replaces stat add, then found out that the code side of mech replaces stat add for repeaters. Now it's a matter of how to make them stack. What I see quite often in discussions about build types is people miss some of the subtler things that a class brings if it's not numbers. Double range on PBS means double range on increased damage output. even if soloing with rogue levels, there is bluff (plenty of skill points to raise it) that makes SA hit anyways. You still get evasion which is useful vs traps/spells.

Something I just remembered in one of the earlier posts mentioning assassin.. it does take the damage boost for both, so that's a limiting factor, also, assassination is melee only, so you lose out on that ability with ranged. Could you imagine a 3 round burst from 1 assassination attempt with a repeater? The cries for nerf would block out the sun!

Anyways.. This is the build I'm making, mech 1/battle engi/ DWS, it'll be a tough nut with some very solid (for ranged) DPS, imho. Of course, with most everything in DDO, ymmv.