Heavy fortification not needed

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Heavy Fort is not required.

However, no other item will do as much to reduce incoming melee damage as a heavy fort item will...

Heavy fort will do more for you than a ton of extra HP will.

In theory a high enough AC would be better. But in actuality, getting a high enough AC is so difficult that is is not worth even trying.

Equip your toon however you wish IMO.

Part of the game is choosing what wearable item (or weapon...etc.) is more useful to you in which situation.

But against melee attacks, there really is nothing better than Heavy Fort to wear IMO.

I suppose certain situations would make you decide to wear something else instead...but those situations would be very few.
(for instance, I am strugglng with how to have heavy fort at the same time I wear my Big Top....even though I rarely use the Big Top, it puts me in a vulnerable position to have to remove my Minos Helm.... just part of the game...choices)


But...as I stated before... it is not required.
But it's one of the best things you can wear....so why not wear it? (I have bought many taps off the AH for what even my broke butt considers affordable....but I understand a brand new player might not be able to afford them. But lots of XP to be got while killing for taps...well worth the time IMO)

Edit: during the Crystal Cove event, many of us took off our Minos Helms to wear pirate hats.....and got our butts handed to us! Actually took some of us awhile to realise just why we were suddenly so much more squishy than usual.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

Kinda silly that a mage in robes can avoid crits as well as a fighter in full plate.

It;s called Magic.

Heavy fort on your ring (or any fort for that matter) doesn't have anything to do with what you are wearing, the magic of the item protects you.

Same as Resistance or Protection from a specific elemental damage type. Does the ring physically stop the acid damage? No the magic prevents it.

Applying logic to magic in a game is counterproductive to game balancing and the fantasy setting.

Just go with it.

Now Im not saying that plate shouldnt get some inherent fortification or DR but really in a game of magic (lets face it everyone is useing magic weapons or spells or is of a magical nature for the most part) why spend the time to make changes based on the feeling that metal should protect better than cloth when magic is involved?

[rjbutchko]

If the only way to achieve heavy fort was via full plate the other classes would be effectively gimped or need to use even more items slots to achieve 100%.

I disagree. If heavy fort was more difficult to achieve then classes would only be gimped by the "caster walks around wailing everything with impunity" standard. The game would just require different tactics.

I actually think that some of the "Nerf casters" people would be better off arguing for more difficult to slot fortification for casters so that they would be required to bring a meat shield with them for scroll farming and such. As someone who played PnP 20 plus years ago under a vastly different (and better IMHO) set of rules this actually makes some sense to me.

[grodon9999]

It;s called Magic.

Heavy fort on your ring (or any fort for that matter) doesn't have anything to do with what you are wearing, the magic of the item protects you.

Same as Resistance or Protection from a specific elemental damage type. Does the ring physically stop the acid damage? No the magic prevents it.

Applying logic to magic in a game is counterproductive to game balancing and the fantasy setting.

Just go with it.

Now Im not saying that plate shouldnt get some inherent fortification or DR but really in a game of magic (lets face it everyone is useing magic weapons or spells or is of a magical nature for the most part) why spend the time to make changes based on the feeling that metal should protect better than cloth when magic is involved?

it still doesn't make any sense how a magic force field gives you 100% immunity to critical hits yet does nothing to prevent you from getting hit in the first place. How does a magic ring prevent me from getting kicked in the nuts?

But yeah . . . it's too big of a change unless AC/Armor/Fortification/etc . . . got a complete overhaul.

[Seamonkeysix]

Armor Type= DR /signed
Armor Type= Fortification /not signed

Think of heavy fortification as a magical enhancement that protects your vital organs. An item that magically twists you slightly this way or that to keep your heart from being punctured, or your brain cleaved in two. You still take the damage, but heavy fort is more of a magical device monitoring your CNS and incoming damage to keep you from taking a devastating shot.

It's like the airbags of DnD. It senses the crash and mitigates the damage as best it can. Doesn't mean you won't take damage, just means it may not be as bad.

In contrast, I do agree that if you get into the same "crash" while wearing adamantine full plate vs. a mu-mu, you should get some damage reduction.

[Missing_Minds]

being 100% immune to critical hits, especially on a toon in a loin-clothe who gets hit every shot, is stupid. But . . . it's too big of a change as the whole game has revolved around everyone having Heavy fort for so long.

People keep forgetting that the Devs have stated they intend to review current fortification and probably change it to something that better fits MMO game play.

[fasteddie8989]

You don't think an item slot is enough to give up for heavy fort? Should +6 to a stat be more difficult then equiping an item? How about more spell points? Water breathing? Feather fall?

Heavy fort is "required" for surviveability, why make it harder for people to get? I don't understand your reasoning here.

The reason i would like people to think about it is yes it is worth part of a slot, in fact it is worth way more then a slot. If people had to give up something to gain %100 fortification (surviveablility) it might be a start to ballance the game a bit.

for example

normal difficulty quest mobs did not sneak attack for that much damage and did not crit for that much damage %100 fort would not be required, but still nice.

hard difficulty quest mobs would start to sneak attack for more damage and crit higher. Now fort is required to stop some of the incoming damage or you die quickly.

elite is required to have %100 fortification

Now if you had to give up DPS (mellee or spell) to have %100 fortification it would start to create rolls for people in quests again. A barb or wiz could still get %100 fort but they would give up DPS for it. If you did not take %100 fort you would do more DPS, but when you get argo your going to be in trouble. The way the game is now if you get argo oh well not much danger (unless the devs make base damage high). I belive this has caused the devs to up the base damage mobs do or every quest would be a cake walk for anyone.

This could start to make tanking a possiblity again as who would want
A. low DPS sorc with %100 fort (able to take hits)
B. high DPS sorc with 0 fort (dies in 2 shots if he gets argo)
C. balanced ok DPS (does not die in 2 shots)

There is not a right answer as every situation is different. This is where it would expand the game to more then take the min/max as it is the best as of now.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Let me add something else.

There are many levels of difficulty in this game. You start out weak and face weak monsters. You gain power, but so does the monsters you fight. Eventually you reach a point where the monster hit really hard and crit even harder.

The highest monsters hit so hard that there non-crit attacks cause serious damage to many adventurers.
Against the highest lvl monsters in the game, I would argue that Heavy Fort "is" required! But I do not see a problem with this at all.

By the time you fight the monsters that I think it is required for, almost every char would have a decent chance to have it. It is actually expected, that the highest lvl chars will have a Heavy Fort item. And I do not see a problem with this.

For one thing, there are soooo many ways to get it.
New named armor is starting to have it on it. Or have it as an upgrade option.
Many ways to free up a slot by choosing to wear a multi-function item that includes heavy fort.

And it is not "required" until the highest lvls IMO.
It is just really nice to have, because it does so much for you.

[Chai]

it still doesn't make any sense how a magic force field gives you 100% immunity to critical hits yet does nothing to prevent you from getting hit in the first place. How does a magic ring prevent me from getting kicked in the nuts?

But yeah . . . it's too big of a change unless AC/Armor/Fortification/etc . . . got a complete overhaul.

It doesnt stop you from getting nut kicked, but the mobs shoulda known that you were Iron Balls McGinty.

[Missing_Minds]

it still doesn't make any sense how a magic force field....

Edited your post. You talked to much.

[muffinlad]

A-hem. This is DnD why should fort have anything to do with armor?

Its magic, derp.

This.

And a few others. But mostly this.

muffinmagi

[TempestAlphaOmega]

it still doesn't make any sense how a magic force field gives you 100% immunity to critical hits yet does nothing to prevent you from getting hit in the first place. How does a magic ring prevent me from getting kicked in the nuts?

Easy,

It doesn't stop the hit but nudges it from a critical area. Instead of that shot to the groin it deflects the shot so that it hits your hip instead or instead of a shot to the head it deflects it into the shoulder.

Also could depend on what you consider a critical hit. Instead of going in the eye slit of your helmet it strikes your helm. Instead of a clean blow right through the robe, the magic fibers partially entagle the weapon making the hit less severe.

Magic is tricky that way......

It's best just to not think to hard about the how. I mean those little gnomes who build CPUs who assemble all those transisters so the magic box can think right and let me play this game, now that's magic and thinking about how that is possible just makes my head hurt.

[fasteddie8989]

Easy,


It's best just to not think to hard about the how. I mean those little gnomes who build CPUs who assemble all those transisters so the magic box can think right and let me play this game, now that's magic and thinking about how that is possible just makes my head hurt.

Oh thats easy all computer components have this little supply of smoke that they run on. If you let that smoke out they stop working

[Battlehawke]

Yes, it should. It's AD&D....sorta..

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I do really think that armor type (None, Light, Medium, Heavy) needs an adjustment that makes armor better than robes!

Even more so because having a meaningful AC at the highest lvls is jst about impossible.

There needs to be a reason to wear armor!
fantasy Knights wear fantasy armor to protect them from fire breathing dragons!
Armor is an important part of the game.

And needs to stay important at lvl 20+.

My personal thought is some sort of DR formula, based on armor type and BaB. That gives a lvl 20 Ftr in heavy armor some very significant DR.

Maybe Armor DR= 1 * BaB * armor category (none, robe, outfit = 0, light = 1, Medium =2, Heavy = 3)

This should stack with other DR IMO.

This would give a lvl 1 Heavy Armor guy a DR of 3.
And a Ftr 20 w/heavy armor a dr of 60. Which is really, really good, but I think it is something to consider. Cause he sure aint using evasion with heavy armor, and evasion reduces way more than 60 HP of damage.

This just makes the Ftr better against melee mobs. And still very vulnerable to other forms of damage.

Perhaps it should be bypassable DR in some way. Maybe Adamantine, maybe Epic.
Obviously a system like this would require an adjustment to monster damage types as well.

And future quests can take that into consideration...so add monsters that do damae in other ways.

IMO, this would be great for the game.
Elven Armored Wizards would have a place.
Tanks can actually be tanks again.
Barbarians would be giving up a feat to get Heavy Armor.
These guys in heavy armor are still very vulnerable to non-melee forms of damage.

I would almost definately have this bypassed by Epic weps though. And give most raid bosses the ability to bypass it.
(and trash Epic monsters wouldn't have to have epic weps...mix it up so that it is still useful sometimes)

Edit: to add a little more.
Under system like I propose, it would be very important to look carefully at individual monsters to decide which ones should have DR bypassing weps. (for all types of DR, since I propose a stacking DR for armor)

+1 Full Plate of Invulnerability would be awesome in the Harbor for instance.
But shouldn't that Oranged named Trog in the sewers have at least a +1 wepon?

I do not care about trash mobs....they are trash. They still beat up Wizards, but now an armored knight is tough to take down. (until he meets the Shaman aroud the next corner....which is the only thing that was killing him before the change anyway....)

I am very much for variety of monster stats....to solve a whole bunch of class balance issues.
Hordes of meaningless minions should be charging to their deaths against our valiant heroes.
Yet mini-bosses, and elite henchmen should be a much more significant threat.

Who cares if the "tank" is actually invulnerable to the hordes of expendible minions.
Who cares if the Wizard insta-kills hordes of meaningless minions.

Those Oranged named guys have better weps, better immunities...etc.
Red named even more.

Purple...forget about using any of your tricks...this guy is way better than you'll ever be!

(I do think some more differenciation of colored named immunities is in order, and a closer look at how things like Deathward and Fort effect Rogues)

Anyway. of course if you make a sweeping power change in one area of the game, you will need to make many adjustments to other areas to keep things appropriate.

[jandhaer]

being 100% immune to critical hits, especially on a toon in a loin-clothe who gets hit every shot, is stupid.

Pretty sure thats why its called MAGIC

[TempestAlphaOmega]

Oh thats easy all computer components have this little supply of smoke that they run on. If you let that smoke out they stop working

Ahhh the magic smoke, now so many things make sense.....

[Rakian_Knight]

I believe they are going to change sunder/improved sunder to reduce fortification on the target by a small amount in update 11 so that will give mobs chances to reduce our fortification more than the other way round.

[fasteddie8989]

or with the new bravery bonus when you enter a quest on hard -%25 fort elite -%50 fort and make a new chalange for the multiple TR insane -%100 fort but %300 the exp for the first time bonus.

[grodon9999]

Pretty sure thats why its called MAGIC

Magic isn't that stupid.