PVP Haters - insight

[Chai]

MMO players are rats that need cheese. There is no incentive to queue up in the arena's, thus no one uses them. I've been in two "events" and a few guild groups that have made use of the arena's. Everyone had a great time.

If Turbine ever took the time to finally add a little spice to the pvp options they added YEARS ago, I think alot of people would be surprised just how fun a little competition can be.

The pvp naysayers are just wet blankets..."GIT OFF MY PVE LAWN!!!"

Problem is: The gear that would entice people to PVP alot more would have to be better than what they already have. Welfare epics are cute and all but handing them to everyone for killing eachother for a few hours a day is teh lulz.

Theyd have to make earning stuff based on participation instead of winning, because playing melee in PVP would be a loss most of the time, and playing melee in a cap the flag scenario wouldnt be worth a group slot.

Being able to entirely gear out a toon in welfare epics through play of another toon is already getting pretty cheap in this game. Being able to do so through PVP participation would give an entire new meaning to piking.

[Delt]

Problem is: The gear that would entice people to PVP alot more would have to be better than what they already have. Welfare epics are cute and all but handing them to everyone for killing eachother for a few hours a day is teh lulz.

Theyd have to make earning stuff based on participation instead of winning, because playing melee in PVP would be a loss most of the time, and playing melee in a cap the flag scenario wouldnt be worth a group slot.

Being able to entirely gear out a toon in welfare epics through play of another toon is already getting pretty cheap in this game. Being able to do so through PVP participation would give an entire new meaning to piking.

I doesn't need to be gear, I don't know why you need to think so one dimensionally about it. It can be ranking, cosmetics, titles or, hell, even a fleshed out PvM system similar to LotRO. And those are just my off the cuff ideas.

There are plenty of options to add a carrot to pvp -- the DDO combat mechanics are good enough to make it fun and engaging. A negative Nancy can always find an excuse to poo-poo it.

[MartinusWyllt]

...

An in-game reward as simple as a world broadcast notice (like a guild reaching a certain level) would create a stir around PvP....

Absolutely not. the guild notices, due to the lack of a unique icon, just make me think something is borked on my character as it is. I will never care who "pwned" whom.

Any reward scheme you can devise will be very rapidly exploited.

[Chai]

I doesn't need to be gear, I don't know why you need to think so one dimensionally about it. It can be ranking, cosmetics, titles or, hell, even a fleshed out PvM system similar to LotRO. And those are just my off the cuff ideas.

Hardly one dimensional - We didnt farm the cove hundreds of times because we wanted to run the same thing over and over for a week straight. We did so because of gear. Enticing people to use PVP is one thing. Keeping them there years later will require gear awards.

There are plenty of options to add a carrot to pvp -- the DDO combat mechanics are good enough to make it fun and engaging. A negative Nancy can always find an excuse to poo-poo it.

Just like a fanboi can always find an excuse to prop it up. Both absolutes are equally absurd.

You will find that my thoughts are something in between, and not negative simply because I dont agree 100% with the PVP crowd.

You will also find that this type of decision boils down to money, and the company will add the pros and cons up dollarwise before making such a decision. Say what you will about those opposed to PVP, but one thing is clear to me through the lack of development of it in this game over five plus years. Its not that popular. If there was money in it, there would be more encouragement to use the system already in place.

They might be able to make it popular using a ranking system, but this wont keep it popular. For that, there will have to be another reason to keep showing up, which boils down to gear rewards. Gear is the driving force behind what will succeed over the long term in DDO. Why else do people have hundreds of Shroud completions, yet barely run Titan anymore? I bet if they beefed up the gear in there you'd see Titan back on the LFM menu.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of people who are pro PVP and are still unfamiliar with most of the game mechanics that already exist for it in this game - because it remains largely unused. Adding more to it when the majority of whats already there is laden with cobwebs doesnt make sense from a business perspective. Most of what you call "wet blankets" are merely pointing out this fact, and stating that they would rather see mechanics that are actually used gain further development in DDO. Then they get labeled "haters" because of it, heh. Oh well.

[Delt]

Now you are repeating yourself (must be gear and people don't use it now!) and you are bringing up the money angle. Let me cover both...again:

- Your opinion of "must-be gear carrots!" is noted. And discarded. It does not have to be. I can be. It can be cosmetic perks, it can be access to buffs/items, it can be titles that must be maintained, it can levelling within a seperate perk set that is only active in pvp, in can be Destiny points (ala LotRo). It can be a vehicle for dev events. I can go on and on. You can poo-poo each random possibility and claim, baselessly, people won't participate, but the reality is in-game motivation has NEVER been present for DDO pvp.

For the few player/guild organized pvp events, people had a great time and looked forward to the next.

- Turbine is finding ways to profit from PvM in lotro (long overdue), they can do it here. They added pvp to DDO because people were absolutely craving things to do besides PvE. Like everything else they added around that time (collectibles/traders, initial recipes, etc) it was half-assed. The fact that it has cobwebs as-is amounts to nothing more than a self-serving argument....DDO and it's PvE had to go FREE to drag it up from the grave and inject population. Population is key and pvp can bring in more players -- even if they don't micro the heck out of pvp, they can still benefit.

People label you a hater because you repeat the same arguments, thread after thread, year after year. You aren't interested in a discussion or possibilities, just putting your same arguments out there. People eventually stop talking with you or participating in the pvp threads you inevitably jump into.

The rest of us will keep making suggestions for improving gameplay variety and improving aspects already in the game.

[Chai]

Now you are repeating yourself (must be gear and people don't use it now!) and you are bringing up the money angle. Let me cover both...again:

- Your opinion of "must-be gear carrots!" is noted. And discarded. It does not have to be. I can be. It can be cosmetic perks, it can be access to buffs/items, it can be titles that must be maintained, it can levelling within a seperate perk set that is only active in pvp, in can be Destiny points (ala LotRo). It can be a vehicle for dev events. I can go on and on. You can poo-poo each random possibility and claim, baselessly, people won't participate, but the reality is in-game motivation has NEVER been present for DDO pvp.

Please inform us: What other than gear will keep people coming back for more PVP?

For the few player/guild organized pvp events, people had a great time and looked forward to the next.

For how long? 2 years from now that system will have the same cobwebs on it that it currently has sans gear rewards.

- Turbine is finding ways to profit from PvM in lotro (long overdue), they can do it here. They added pvp to DDO because people were absolutely craving things to do besides PvE. Like everything else they added around that time (collectibles/traders, initial recipes, etc) it was half-assed. The fact that it has cobwebs as-is amounts to nothing more than a self-serving argument....DDO and it's PvE had to go FREE to drag it up from the grave and inject population. Population is key and pvp can bring in more players -- even if they don't micro the heck out of pvp, they can still benefit.

Shenanigans. The fact that it has cobwebs is evidence that PEOPLE DO NOT USE IT. This is not a self serving answer. Its an observation of fact. I also observe that many PVPers dont use 90% of the features. They sit in the gank pit trash talking those they beat and accusing those who beat them of using cheap tactics. Theres been more than a few occasions where I tried to get some of these same cats into cap the flag, only to be called out and tolds there is no such thing. Roafles. System not used? Most people, even those who favor PVP, dont even KNOW_IT_EXISTS - heh.

People label you a hater because you repeat the same arguments, thread after thread, year after year. You aren't interested in a discussion or possibilities, just putting your same arguments out there. People eventually stop talking with you or participating in the pvp threads you inevitably jump into.

The rest of us will keep making suggestions for improving gameplay variety and improving aspects already in the game.

When those arguements cant be refuted, all I have to do is pull their card each and every time. Im not a hater because im wrong, Im a hater because I am correct, and people who have religiously disagreed with me in the past cant stand it in the present. They also dont answer the questions I have repeatedly asked. Go figure. Its due to the fact that the minute they start thinking down the lines I sent them down, they see exactly what I am talking about. THis brings up another good point Delt. More PVP happens on the forums than in game.

I am fine with discussing possibilities. So tell us again, what other than gear will keep people coming back for more PVP in DDO, say one year after a revamp? Ill give you a hint, its not bragging rights or titles.

[Delt]

When those arguements cant be refuted, all I have to do is pull their card each and every time.

There is nothing to refute. Go reread my post. You have ignored the content of my post and opted, once again, to simply repeat yourself. Lets even look at the one question you posed to me: What other than gear will keep people coming back for more PVP?

It can't be anymore clear you simply absorb 0% of anything else anyone writes. If you want the answer to that, READ the very portion you quoted.

I'm not flaming you. To be honest, I don't care, I usually ignore your posts, as do many others I've spoken to. But before you rush off to pat yourself on the back over your self proclaimed air tight arguements, you should consider that maybe, just maybe, people get bored of bashing their head and ideas off the brickwall that is Chai.

If not, grats I guess. /shrug

[SHOCK_and_AWE]

[url=http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253062]...For anyone unfamiliar with DotA;
1. Each team has a home base which they must protect.
2. From destroyable spawn points (near the home base) creeps (trash mobs) spawn and go on 1 of 3 preset paths towards the enemy base and encounter opposing creeps where they fight it out.
3. The role of the players is to influence the outcome of these skirmishes and push the line towards the opposing teams base to hopefully destroy their base.

Furthermore;
a. There are defensive positions which must be destroyed to continue (turrets).
b. It is possible to upgrade the creeps, prevent opposing trash creeps from spawning by destroying the spawn point or spawn boss creeps.
c. There are neutral creeps which can be destroyed for sweet loots/upgrades/bonuses.
d. You can kill opposing heroes (though this won't necessarily help you win the quest)....

There is a significant difference between DotA and DDO: DotA has an RTS interface and DDO is a 3rd-person MMO (it has an action-RPG interface, if you will).

However, you do have a great point: when it comes to PvP, DotA and DDO are birds of a feather! For, you see, with regards to PvP, both

• are incredibly imbalanced with cross-class combat
• are inane
• are repetitive
• have a steep learning curve
• are absolutely full of the rudest and most mean-spirited players you can imagine
• facilitate flaming
• are poorly designed and implemented

I've played Warcraft III (read: the RTS, NOT WoW) since its release in 2003 and I can tell you that DotA is one of the least enjoyable scenarios (custom maps/mods) I've ever played. I will not elaborate further, but I just want to say that DotA is the LAST game you want to use as a paragon for DDO PvP.

[Chai]

There is nothing to refute. Go reread my post. You have ignored the content of my post and opted, once again, to simply repeat yourself. Lets even look at the one question you posed to me: What other than gear will keep people coming back for more PVP?

It can't be anymore clear you simply absorb 0% of anything else anyone writes. If you want the answer to that, READ the very portion you quoted.

I'm not flaming you. To be honest, I don't care, I usually ignore your posts, as do many others I've spoken to. But before you rush off to pat yourself on the back over your self proclaimed air tight arguements, you should consider that maybe, just maybe, people get bored of bashing their head and ideas off the brickwall that is Chai.

If not, grats I guess. /shrug

Heres your chance then: As of now I am only interested in hearing your response to the question you have glossed over three times now. It is as follows:

What other than gear will keep people coming back for more PVP in DDO, say one year after a revamp?

You clearly stated that thinking only in terms of gear is one dimensional. Then show us where those other dimensions are.

[Delt]

Seriously? I mean it...seriously?

I doesn't need to be gear, I don't know why you need to think so one dimensionally about it. It can be ranking, cosmetics, titles or, hell, even a fleshed out PvM system similar to LotRO. And those are just my off the cuff ideas.

There are plenty of options to add a carrot to pvp -- the DDO combat mechanics are good enough to make it fun and engaging. A negative Nancy can always find an excuse to poo-poo it.

- Your opinion of "must-be gear carrots!" is noted. And discarded. It does not have to be. I can be. It can be cosmetic perks, it can be access to buffs/items, it can be titles that must be maintained, it can levelling within a seperate perk set that is only active in pvp, in can be Destiny points (ala LotRo). It can be a vehicle for dev events. I can go on and on. You can poo-poo each random possibility and claim, baselessly, people won't participate, but the reality is in-game motivation has NEVER been present for DDO pvp.

For the few player/guild organized pvp events, people had a great time and looked forward to the next.

[Chai]

So one year after PVP revamp, people will be coming back in droves for bragging rights maintenance and occasional events?

Seriously?

No.

Gear will drive this MUCH harder than any of that stuff, one year later. those things can be used to gets peoples foot in the door, but a year later, if thats all the reason to run PVP, it will look like it does now.

Desolate.

P.S. LOTRO is a WOW clone if there ever was one. DDO is not. Apples, oranges. Lets hear some actual suggestions that will work HERE better than previously proclaimed one dimensional gear motivation. Lets get specific.

[Delt]

poo-poo'd

The reply I expected. A complete dismissal of everything said, swept away with your infallible logic that amounts to "nu uh".

Air tight Chai. Air tight.

I'm so indifferent about you at this point and can't even work up the motivation for a face palm pic. Later...you can chalk this up as another "win".

[Chai]

Air tight Chai. Air tight.

I'm so indifferent about you at this point and can't even work up the motivation for a face palm pic. Later...you can chalk this up as another "win".

You dont want to have this conversation because there_is_no_conversation. This is a gear driven game. If not, please tell us for what incentive people will come back to PVP one year after a revamp, that is better than gear, specifically and in relation to this game.

Hint: Turbine has already answered this question, by not developing PVP.

The reply I expected. A complete dismissal of everything said, swept away with your infallible logic that amounts to "nu uh".

- Your opinion of "must-be gear carrots!" is noted. And discarded.

Why oh why do you continue to accuse me of doing things you are actually the one doing?

[Delt]

Why oh why do you continue to accuse me of doing things you are actually the one doing?

I can make a case for my statements (don't worry, I am aware you didn't actually read anything I wrote). DDO is more than a gear driven game -- we have favor, buffs, ships, an achievement forum, consumables, TRs, collectables, PrE's, stats, crafting, roleplaying, emotes and cosmetics. Many of those were added long after release. We don't have titles, we don't have rankings (we will soon), we don't have a lot of things.

If your arguement were Turbine has lazily made DDO primarily gear driven. I might agree with you. But that in itself is not an arguement, especially against pvp improvements.

Your argument that "DDO is a gear driven game and only gear will incentivize pvp" fails on 4 levels. 1) I've factually disproven that above. 2) It dismisses the reality that gear would also be a good carrot for pvp. 3) It falsely presents the notion that a game can never be more that it is initially. 4) It is your personal opinion based on a what-if.

This, just fyi, is my last reply to you.

[Chai]

Because unlike you, I can make a case for my statements (don't worry, I am aware you didn't actually read anything I wrote). DDO is more than a gear driven game -- with have favor, buffs, ships, an achievement forum, consumables, TRs, collectables, PrE's, stats, crafting, roleplaying, permadeath, emotes and cosmetics. Many of those were added long after release. We don't have titles, we don't have rankings (we will soon), we don't have a lot of things.

If your arguement were Turbine has lazily made DDO primarily gear driven. I might agree with you. But that in itself is not an arguement, especially against pvp improvements.

Your argument that "DDO is a gear driven game and only gear will incentivize pvp" fails on 4 levels. 1) I've factually disproven that above. 2) It dismisses the reality that gear would also be a good carrot for pvp. 3) It falsely presents the notion that a game can never be more that it is initially. 4) It is your personal opinion based on a what-if.

This, just fyi, is my last reply to you.

I didnt say ONLY gear will incentivize this game. I stated, pretty clearly, that it is the best incentive. I also showed pretty clearly, both in present AND past conversations where I asked that EXACT same question, along with the observation of lack of response followed by high quantities of waffling, that even those who visably disagree with me clearly understand what I am saying. Factually disproven? What you did was state your OPINION (not fact) that they could drive PVP in the LONG TERM with something other than gear. I stated that they could do this in the short term, but in the long term, none of the reasons you gave would have the majority of players coming back a year after the revamp (long term), like incentivising with gear would do.

All of these absolute assumptions you are making about my stance on the issue are incorrect, as is the assumption that those who disagree with PVP development in this game are haters.

[cdbd3rd]

...<stuff>...

...<stuff>...

So rarely do I get to use this one:

Any sort of material benefit from PvP would immediately be abused by sets of friends giving up easy kills to each other to get those benefits. Same with titles or what have you.

Otoh, having a seperate system such as LOTRO has, reduces the inter-personal conflict that always seems to arise in general PvP scenarios as it follows the player vs monster premise. The few non-material benefits gained there seem to keep folks involved over the years.


Am still anti-PvP in DDO.... but I wouldn't mind playing a Kobold some day. Or an Ogre Shaman....

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

You make very good points about the difficulties of incorporating PvP in DDO.

Personally I advocate selling PvP maps individually such as a DotA style map. I see this idea as perfect as the focus of the map is PvE and so perfectly fits in with the structure of D&D. Additionally, this structure perfectly addresses the need to build revenue from the sale of the map.

This is what I think could be a great way to implement DDO PvP. If you introduced a PvE element (as opposed to simply a deathmatch) the imbalance between classes could be minimized.

For one, I think that even if players could kill each other on the DoTA map, casters would be at a disadvantage for using their mana simply to kill other players if there were no mana pots and shrines. This assumes that this map lasts long enough for casters to need to conserve mana however...(also ressing should be like releasing where you go back to the start point without refilling mana. however, hp should be recovered)

As to how to get cross server interplay, I wonder if its possible to set aside an instance that all servers could access. That way, an entire server doesn't need to be created to make this possible because I see that as kind of a hassle as well.

As for rewards, there was this pretty neat mmo called RF Online where the giant PVP arena opens up every 8 hours and the three different races (or hopefully in our case, servers) fight each other to "possess" the arena which is filled with ore that you mine for better equipment. Also, the people who were involved and won got a small bonus stat boost until the next fight. I think something like that could be implemented where a server gets +3% xp bonus with +1 to loot or something like that until the next round. This way, it gives motivation for people to get involved.

The hard part about something that has this many people involved though was how to organize everyone to do something meaningful...Something like this would be a huge undertaking on Turbine's part...heh

[Chai]

So rarely do I get to use this one:

Any sort of material benefit from PvP would immediately be abused by sets of friends giving up easy kills to each other to get those benefits. Same with titles or what have you.

You dont award people for killing eachother over and over, they are awarded for completing objectives, like winning a cap the flag for example. When its teams, and players dont get to decide everyone they play against, or with for that matter, its not easy to find a high number of players who just want to roll over and die so the other team can get their loot.

Otoh, having a seperate system such as LOTRO has, reduces the inter-personal conflict that always seems to arise in general PvP scenarios as it follows the player vs monster premise. The few non-material benefits gained there seem to keep folks involved over the years.

Ive played the game. I dont see nearly the number of people using PVP there as there were when it was rolled out. Yeah people still use it, but alot of people flocked to it to try it out, then tapered off to those who are really interested.

Compare that to WOW, where the awards can be used to buy entire suits of high tier PVP armor and weapons. I actually see MORE players there now - and remember waiting alot longer in queues back in the day when there werent good rewards. People line up in droves, and there are ALOT of players who have toons built specifically for PVP use and nothing else.

Am still anti-PvP in DDO.... but I wouldn't mind playing a Kobold some day. Or an Ogre Shaman....

Would the same number of people continue to come back to it a year after revamp for that? Its a good perk. I just dont see it as a better incentive than gear businesswise. People will farm til their eyeballs bleed for some better gear in DDO.

[Chai]

Alot of these have been done in other games with various degrees of success.

This is what I think could be a great way to implement DDO PvP. If you introduced a PvE element (as opposed to simply a deathmatch) the imbalance between classes could be minimized.

The higher the number of players per team the more balance there is in that scenario. 24 on 24 with a queue system would be awesome. One equalizer in large groups is the gang tackle, heh.

For one, I think that even if players could kill each other on the DoTA map, casters would be at a disadvantage for using their mana simply to kill other players if there were no mana pots and shrines. This assumes that this map lasts long enough for casters to need to conserve mana however...(also ressing should be like releasing where you go back to the start point without refilling mana. however, hp should be recovered)

I can see it already. Hey guys, lets camp the shrine!!! - Would be both hilarious and infuriating at the same time. Then your homeboys would have to decide whats worth more, liberating the shrine so your casters can mana up, or trying to complete the objective to gain more (insert quantification of victory here) points.

As to how to get cross server interplay, I wonder if its possible to set aside an instance that all servers could access. That way, an entire server doesn't need to be created to make this possible because I see that as kind of a hassle as well.

Been done on other games. Works most of the time Ive seen it in play. I dont see an entire server that we go through in a queue system a bad thing, because they could have that server down while loading a PVP patch, while the PVE game is still up.

As for rewards, there was this pretty neat mmo called RF Online where the giant PVP arena opens up every 8 hours and the three different races (or hopefully in our case, servers) fight each other to "possess" the arena which is filled with ore that you mine for better equipment. Also, the people who were involved and won got a small bonus stat boost until the next fight. I think something like that could be implemented where a server gets +3% xp bonus with +1 to loot or something like that until the next round. This way, it gives motivation for people to get involved.

In WOW there were a few of these zone wide PVP where if one side controlled the city they got a bonus (Nagrand for instance). Actually killing other players was the way to earn the tokens to buy the gear reward, which could only be bought in the city, and only when it was under your teams control.

The hard part about something that has this many people involved though was how to organize everyone to do something meaningful...Something like this would be a huge undertaking on Turbine's part...heh

And how to keep them coming back for more, without having everyone equipped in the same exact suits of gear all looking like clones. We even saw this for a while a few years ago in PVE when DT was the best endgame armor, which had that "same team" look regardless of who was wearing it, heh.

[jaegarnel]

I can make a case for my statements (don't worry, I am aware you didn't actually read anything I wrote). DDO is more than a gear driven game -- we have favor, buffs, ships, an achievement forum, consumables, TRs, collectables, PrE's, stats, crafting, roleplaying, emotes and cosmetics. Many of those were added long after release. We don't have titles, we don't have rankings (we will soon), we don't have a lot of things.

If your arguement were Turbine has lazily made DDO primarily gear driven. I might agree with you. But that in itself is not an arguement, especially against pvp improvements.

Your argument that "DDO is a gear driven game and only gear will incentivize pvp" fails on 4 levels. 1) I've factually disproven that above. 2) It dismisses the reality that gear would also be a good carrot for pvp. 3) It falsely presents the notion that a game can never be more that it is initially. 4) It is your personal opinion based on a what-if.

This, just fyi, is my last reply to you.

The problem with your list is that every single element in it is tied to the gear and xp acquisition that most players are interested about.

You get favor by doing quests which are the main way of getting xp and gear. Sure, there are people who like having high favor, and most will farm some favor for the rewards, but if you dissociated favor from quests, I'm pretty sure most players wouldn't care enough about it to farm it.

Ships and buffs are the same thing, the renown for those, like favor, is acquired in quests, and most importantly, players want those to make quests (i.e. gear and xp acquisition) easier.

Achievement forum, yes people always like to brag, however most of the posts are by the same people over and over, and I'd wager the majority of players just doesn't care about it.
Also, when people post achievements they're bragging as much if not more about the awesome gear that enabled that achievement.

As for the rest of your list, show me players who are actually driven to play this game for collecting collectables or the awesome cosmetics. I don't think you'll find many.
Sure there are players who like crafting and roleplaying, but they're as much a minority as PvPers.


The fact is that after the initial discovery factor, people are driven to play content by loot, xp and overall fun factor, and quests that get replayed are those who give an outstanding amount of at least one.
The only reason Shroud is the most popular raid in the game by far is that the gear from it is the most useful in the game, and furthermore is unbound which means it provides a great plat source even to people who have all the GS they want.


Denying that most players in this game are loot-driven and that only loot or xp incentives will keep them coming back after the initial fun factor has worn off is denying the obvious, sorry.

And fyi I am totally against adding loot or xp incentives to pvp.