Alchemical Crafting T3 Results and Discussion

[Asmodeus451]

No, ESoS remains king.

care to back that up with some hard facts?


not trying to troll or anything. legitimately interested in seeing the math

[Marten]

I'm a little confused (or braindead?), but what material increases dps?

Did I misread this?

And I am considering the metal types they can get as an extra goody, as that onlt ups them dps-wise versus certain boss mobs.

I thought that meant that there was something other than a DR breaking type that increased DPS. My bad if I misread.

[Chai]

A recent Dev post all but confirms that something past current end game is coming. So, if they didn't start the power creep now, when that does come everyone would be complaining that the new content can't be played... short of the servers getting nuked I believe that DDO will be with us for a while longer, it may be this game generation's Ultima Online in its longevity. There has to be some power creep at some point, ummm I mean balance.

Sue me for trying to see the positive here. I refuse to let a minority of players and a few Devs jade me!

Hmmm, when you have alot of people talking about how easy the game is at all levels, in order to challenge those players you make them complete harder stuff with the same level of gear. Making them complete harder stuff with higher levels of gear will result in what we have now - an unchallenging grind.

I like when the Shroud came out and people wiped in there more often than they succeeded. I will enjoy this new content through those stages, but when we all already have higher end gear and have metagamed it til we can do it with our eyes closed, it will become the same stale grind. I hope this stuff is challenging enough when it goes live where it doesnt become a simple loot pinata like vellah or normal shroud is. Or more accurately that it takes longer for that to happen than a few months.

[Chai]

Any ideas on how a properly crafted alchemical weapon will compare to the eSoS? Obviously the Lit2 strike, lightning blast effect, and 6% doublestrike are kickass, that I am not arguing.

But just based off the crit range and base damage, assuming a Devil's Ruin augment crystal which is not too difficult to keep on eSoS, do these weapons actually look like they will finally push the eSoS off its throne?

My first thoughts are no, except situationally perhaps.

I bet it will have alot to do with what class and what strength level we are talking about.

If you play a full ****** DPS with high level of str eSOS will likely still prevail.

If you play a specialist who doesnt have as high str it benefits you more percentage wise to get weapons that have alot of effects on them. Even smaller base damage hits like offand strikes still apply the effects in a linear fashion.

The math heads will likely figure out some point where you have to have X strength score to do better with eSOS than with alchemical.

[Diyon]

Did I misread this?



I thought that meant that there was something other than a DR breaking type that increased DPS. My bad if I misread.

I probably should have quoted them instead of you (you just mentioned it again after them closer to the end of the thread), I don't think you misread either, so I think they were wrong. If they aren't, someone please correct me, as that's what I was going for with the original post regarding this.

[Angelus_dead]

If you play a specialist who doesnt have as high str it benefits you more percentage wise to get weapons that have alot of effects on them.

That's one curve of the comparison, but there's another axis in how well you hit enemy AC.

Lower strength characters will have more need for the +10 ESOS in order to connect their attack rolls.

[BlackSteel]

The math heads will likely figure out some point where you have to have X strength score to do better with eSOS than with alchemical.

at certain str scores the REGULAR sos beats everything except the epic SoS. thats just the nature of having the best crit profile available

[sirgog]

No, ESoS remains king.

eSOS remains king re. low Fortification. It remains junk against 75%+ Fort.

Guess what every endgame raid boss tested on Lama now has?

[Shade]

eSOS remains king re. low Fortification. It remains junk against 75%+ Fort.

Guess what every endgame raid boss tested on Lama now has?

None have been thoroughly tested.

They could all be still 25-50% tops.

And actually as the DPS challenge proove. ESoS is ultra powerful even vs 100% fort beating most weapons. It's hardly "junk".

I don't really see any of this changing any THF standings.
100% fort:
abbot - best will remain a triple pos gs
Less then 100%; devils...
best will remain esos slotted to break DR

If they up lailats to a reeasonable lvl of fort, that might be one area where esos drops.. As not many have it slotted to handle cold iron, tho her dr is only 20.

Esos is also by far the best for the lord of blades. I'd estimate he has 25% fort on normal, 50% on elite/epic. Also breaks his DR quite easily with most setups (adamantine + good).

Now Ronny and Sally I believe the new weapons will be great for. Both being 100% fort, and having zero elemental resistance of any type far as I know.

Tho atm, the current setup you would be running:
1x master artificer, get your weapon (Maybe 2 if your unlucky)
10-20x lord of blades to upgrade it... So you wouldn't be killing a lot of titans.

tho the issue is MA has no repeat value. Even if they put +4 tomes in epic, it would be a tough sell, they have insane HP so it takes an incredibly long time. Torc mentioned they might tweak the HP, but not before it hits live.
Well except for Tovens runearm.. but if that remains unbound, you could just trade for it.

[dumbbunny]

I have several things to say in response to what i have read in this thread:
First I haven't said it yet but i have thought it multiple times Thank you Shade for your dedicated testing and accurate posting on the lamania forums.

Second to those worried about game balance remember the hp for all bosses got doubled and our dps by no means got that kind of boost. while i am a little worried about the epics with stunning +10 earthgrab items(if i am wrong and this is not possible plz say so i tried to read everything but it may have gotten different tiers jumbled in my head) i do not think it will break the game and unless there is a significant change in builds to endorse the +10 stunning it will probably actually be fairly little impact endgame. the passive proc is fairly ineffective in epics and it takes some serious work to get to the dcs that make stunning effective. other notes are that it will now be possible to make bypassing lit 2s with holy burst and still get 2 +2 exceptional stat slots on monks. this i am a touch worried about and im normally pro monk items but this may be a bit over the top especially with the x3 crit you can now get with mountain stance. however i have done no numbers on it so i cannot say how big a boost this will be. That said our healing resources will probably become even more strained so the point of these weapons may have been to give some counterbalance to the fights before the bosses (or even during such as the orthons in part 3 of tod) and enable a couple of correctly speced toons to mitigate the resources needed to clear these pests.

Third please understand that testing is not doable by any dev team at a level where it will be able to balance every aspect of any player base variety. think about how many builds there are in just one large guild? think about all the slight variations that make a build better at some specific thing? there are proabaly 6 or so actual significantly different variations of just the godhand level split (12 fighter 8 monk) and thats with out the 1 rogue splash that i have seen several versions of(and which i personally prefer) thats just 1 level split. think about all the ranger splashes and everything else and then try to figure out for many gear levels what combos the players may make effective? its impossible for any team to test all of this there just is no way to get that kind of manpower into it. lamania will let you test the initial attempts but there will always be the need to do changes later because lets face it lamania groups are often short-manned and either very well geared for the entire group to test it or just there to see the sights.

Finally i whole heartedly agree with the idea of more complex boss type battles or fights. make us think a bit make us do things a little different so we have to split the group up and not always have ideal build compliments its what makes the game interesting. Shroud splitting off the bosses in part 2 is definitely an interesting mechanic and if done in an epic level quest could make it very challenging simply because the healing resources get strained. I look forward to what other ideas the devs may spring on us and hope they enable another quest to be as fun as shroud was for my first hundred runs or so.

[Jay203]

just a thought...

anyone else find the amount of buffs on these items to be too RIDICULOUSLY much?
waaaaay too much texts!

[Thoradin]

Hate to repeat what others have said but i am extremely interested to see if the handwraps actually WORK lol

[altrocks]

That's one curve of the comparison, but there's another axis in how well you hit enemy AC.

Lower strength characters will have more need for the +10 ESOS in order to connect their attack rolls.

A common misconception.

If you're DEX based, then you use finesse weapons (or ranged weapons which is a totally different conversation) and have no real problems hitting.

If you're INT based (thinking Arty/Rogue here) you use an arti buff for your weapons, or you get something like the new Epic Midnight Greeting, which gives you an enhancement bonus based on your INT. Which is awesome. My Dex/Int assassin will have INT and DEX scores added to the eMG to-hit, AND have the INT score added to damage (through enhancement boost).

The old paradigm of STR/melee damage being king is quickly disappearing. Casters became top DPS with U9. The U11 epic upgrades and new items are giving even items like the eSoS a run for its money without having to go "full ****** DPS with STR" as someone else put it. There are going to be options. One option will always be the top DPS choice over the others, but the gap between the DPS of each choice is slowly disappearing so that you won't have to be a fully raged Barbarian with 90 STR to do meaningful damage to a mob, or even to hit it.

Even as it is, I have little to no trouble hitting epic mobs, even Malicia, with my DEX/INT rogue. In fact, I'm usually the one painting them for everyone else so they can hit more easily. And he's not that well geared yet. No TOD ring yet, no +4 tomes, only a little raid gear (Tharne's Goggle's, Levik's Bracers, a couple Tier1 Epic Crystal Cove items I had sitting around), only 1 Lit2 Rapier for GS, no GS items at all. With a little more work, I'm sure he will be considered OP, and that's BEFORE the update.

So yeah, eSoS is a great THF weapon, but to say that it's the best choice for everyone because of how uber it is... well, that's a mistake. eMG is going to be the most powerful weapon in the game come U11. It just won't work as such for anyone but an Assassin. :-)

[Lavek]

so what...this new stuff will put 95% of epic items to shame


I feel sad I grinded all the stuff for my green blade now -_-'

[sirio.gala]

eMG is going to be the most powerful weapon in the game come U11. It just won't work as such for anyone but an Assassin. :-)

Not really.
Talkin' about dps you'll be able to use a max int bonus of 30 (+10) and a max dex bonus of about 38/40 (+14/15).
Crit profile 20x2 and no addictional effects, no dmg bypass (sure, we'll have the artis who will change that thing).
So a str rog (str full buffed about 44 if human) will be always up a dex rogue about dmg with EMG if he can reach 30 int.
But the str can switch to a Lit2 Kopesh with a x3 crit profile without problem, istead the dex rogue must use the rapiers.

Of course i will craft 2xEMG on my rog, but just for the +2 dc on assassinate.

[budalic]

Not really.
Talkin' about dps you'll be able to use a max int bonus of 30 (+10) and a max dex bonus of about 38/40 (+14/15).
Crit profile 20x2 and no addictional effects, no dmg bypass (sure, we'll have the artis who will change that thing).
So a str rog (str full buffed about 44 if human) will be always up a dex rogue about dmg with EMG if he can reach 30 int.
But the str can switch to a Lit2 Kopesh with a x3 crit profile without problem, istead the dex rogue must use the rapiers.

Of course i will craft 2xEMG on my rog, but just for the +2 dc on assassinate.

It's kukri, it has 18-20/x2 crit profile (same as rapier). The power of the weapon lies not in DPS, but in usefullnes to builds that rely on Dex for AC.

[sirio.gala]

It's kukri, it has 18-20/x2 crit profile (same as rapier). The power of the weapon lies not in DPS, but in usefullnes to builds that rely on Dex for AC.

My fault, miswrited.

That's another thing what i wrote was absolutely about dps (cit. "Talkin' about dps")

Returning IT anyone knows how the tier could be mixable?
Can i craft a A/A/F to have a lit2 + 10 seeker?

[TheDearLeader]

Returning IT anyone knows how the tier could be mixable?
Can i craft a A/A/F to have a lit2 + 10 seeker?

Yup. Tiers are mix-and-match, no benefits/penalties for doing do.

[Letrii]

On the Tier 3 effect, is the +6 enhancement to a certain stat or all them?

[sirgog]

On the Tier 3 effect, is the +6 enhancement to a certain stat or all them?

It's the to-hit/damage type of enhancement. (On shields, AC, as well as controlling shield bash To-Hit and damage).

Replaces the +5 the items come with.